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  #81  
Old 08-10-2015, 11:31 PM
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

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Originally Posted by Tommy_D View Post
Pearl blends Birch and Kapur in the Session Select kits, and blends birch and mahogany with Maple in their Reference kits depending on what size the shell is. Tama has Birch and Bubinga mixes, Gretsch Renown Walnut is Walnut/Maple/Walnut. Lots of hybrid wood kits out there to choose from. I don't look at this as copying Mapex's idea though. Old 3 ply kits were made of maple and poplar, or gum, or mahogany mixes. This wood blending has been going on since before most of us were born.
And dw has bamboo and birch :-)
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  #82  
Old 08-10-2015, 11:47 PM
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
Surely you're joking - right? Ok, nothing - NOTHING surprises me :(

Just returned from running sound for a ton of bands. Every imaginable type of kit was presented to me. The best kit in terms of trouble free sound check was a Mapex Orion. Why? ----- the guy knew how to tune it appropriately for the playing environment.
Interesting, and so how was it appropriately tuned? I am guessing high? (This was the outdoor in the country gig right?

I'm surprised (well maybe not) at some of the basically racist or ethnically biased comments in this thread on Chinese design or manufacturing. Like "my friends Dad did something in China and it didn't work out. My sample size is one, but hey so Chinese everything sucks."
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  #83  
Old 08-11-2015, 12:09 AM
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

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Interesting, and so how was it appropriately tuned? I am guessing high? (This was the outdoor in the country gig right?

I'm surprised (well maybe not) at some of the basically racist or ethnically biased comments in this thread on Chinese design or manufacturing. Like "my friends Dad did something in China and it didn't work out. My sample size is one, but hey so Chinese everything sucks."
Yeah, it bothered me a bit too, especially thinking about way back when I was telling one of my good friends (non-drummer) that the best drumkit for me, the one I really want is made by a Taiwanese company. This made him smile proudly - this guy came here to the U.S. from Taipei 30 years ago (relatives in China) with nothing, and has done well.
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  #84  
Old 08-11-2015, 12:14 AM
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

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One thing that I don't get is why aren't the other manufacturers offering kits with a walnut inner ply? I mean walnut absolutely sounds different than other woods to the point where you can hear the difference. It's just deeper and richer compared to the whiter woods.
Nope, sorry, have to call you on that, but it's not true.
Remember, it's wood, and there are actually several species of walnut.

Any particular species of walnut will have a density and janka hardness that will fall within a certain range. That actually may have a minimal effect on how it reflects sound, but not one you could hear based on a laminated inner ply. Also, if you look, you'll find dozens of other woods with densities and janka ratings similar to any species of Walnut. Whiter or Darker than walnut.

Pick up two raw kiln dried walnut boards from different sized trees or different cuts, flat or quarter, and you'll probably be able to tell they're different with your eyes closed. Tap on them and they'll sound different.
We tend to romanticize the species of wood a drum is made of, but we're talking about the inner layer of plywood here. The density won't be consistent, and it won't be something you can hear.

The Saturn V's tone will be the result of the drum's dimensions (diameter, depth, wall thickness, bearing edge), the heads they put on it, the skill/ears of the person who tuned it, hoops, and even venting, more than the species of a 1 or 2 mm thick inner ply. Honestly, I suspect the number of fairies that pee'd on the bearing edge before they put the heads on has an equal effect on the tone as the inner ply wood species. ;)

That said, if you love the way a drum sounds, that is all that really matters as long as it's well made. These sound like nice drums.
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  #85  
Old 08-11-2015, 02:04 AM
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

Mapex, Mapex, Mapex...man did I have a horrible opinion about this company for a long time. The first time I saw a Mapex kit was in the early 90's, Kempfer Music in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania (if any of you have been to MusikFest in Bethlehem, Kempfer's was right on Main St.). The sales guy told me they were all maple, and in his words, "sound great, not good, great!". Well, he let me inspect and play the drums, and they were anything but great. I took a head off a tom, and I saw a poorly made shell with poor edges. The drums didn't sound very good either (the lousy stock heads didn't help). I remember saying 3 things to myself when I left; the name is goofy, they won't be around long, and I will NEVER own a Mapex kit.
A few years back I started reading about Saturns on every drum forum I visited. The drums certainly looked a lot nicer than the kit I encountered years ago...I was intrigued. I saw a used Saturn kit at Guitar Center in Whitehall Pa 2 and a half years ago; the sales guy let me set them up and play them. I really liked the way the drums sounded; I inspected them closely, took every drum apart...this kit was high quality and well built. So i took a chance and bought a Mapex...and you know what? I love these drums, I like them more than the high end Pearl and Tama kits I've owned. This is my favorite kit out of the 10 kits I've owned. I consistently get comments from live sound engineers about how great my drums sound, so easy for them to mic, really don't have to do much as far as eq. I've done some session work this year for my band and a few others; again my Saturns did great. They're not the greatest drums in the universe, but they are very good drums. I thought they wouldn't be around long...obviously wrong on that one. I thought I would never own a Mapex kit...wrong again. I thought the name was goofy...well, still think I'm right about that one! Its a non issue for me at this point. Play what you love, boys and girls! I found my kit, now go find yours, wherever it may be and whatever its called!
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  #86  
Old 08-11-2015, 03:49 AM
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

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Nope, sorry, have to call you on that, but it's not true......
.
Just so I understand, if the inner ply was maple, Saturns would still sound the same?

Janka is a hardness test, I don't know that you can attribute sonic properties based solely on the janka scale.

I always attributed the Saturn tone to the inner ply of walnut. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who thinks that.

So basically, I have to disagree right back, I hope you don't mind. I think it's the walnut that makes the Saturn tone. I'd lay a whole dollar on it.
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  #87  
Old 08-11-2015, 04:18 AM
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Just so I understand, if the inner ply was maple, Saturns would still sound the same?

Janka is a hardness test, I don't know that you can attribute sonic properties based solely on the janka scale.

I always attributed the Saturn tone to the inner ply of walnut. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who thinks that.

So basically, I have to disagree right back, I hope you don't mind. I think it's the walnut that makes the Saturn tone. I'd lay a whole dollar on it.
This sounds like a question for Andy!
Having heard Starclassic birch and birch bubinga side by side, I heard a real difference between the two. I don't know how other specs such as thickness and ply orientation and heads played into it though.
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  #88  
Old 08-11-2015, 05:39 AM
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

The manufacturers usually claim there's a sonic difference so I would bet it has SOME effect, surely. Pearl claims it makes a difference with the reference, mapex with the saturns, Yamaha with the PHX etc etc. the thin shells would help but walnut supposedly adds depth.

Gretsch are doing a maple/walnut to thing now.

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  #89  
Old 08-11-2015, 12:01 PM
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

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Originally Posted by Tommy_D View Post
Pearl blends Birch and Kapur in the Session Select kits, and blends birch and mahogany with Maple in their Reference kits depending on what size the shell is. Tama has Birch and Bubinga mixes, Gretsch Renown Walnut is Walnut/Maple/Walnut. Lots of hybrid wood kits out there to choose from. I don't look at this as copying Mapex's idea though. Old 3 ply kits were made of maple and poplar, or gum, or mahogany mixes. This wood blending has been going on since before most of us were born.
Forgot about the SSCs! Indeed, when I said "the concept" I meant the concept of "tone" and "punch" mixed-wood kits, not specifically Mapex being an originator. No, Saturns are simply their take on the concept.

Wasn't aware of this Gretsch kit though, going to check check that niceness out...
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  #90  
Old 08-11-2015, 02:08 PM
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Just so I understand, if the inner ply was maple, Saturns would still sound the same?

Janka is a hardness test, I don't know that you can attribute sonic properties based solely on the janka scale.

I always attributed the Saturn tone to the inner ply of walnut. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who thinks that.

So basically, I have to disagree right back, I hope you don't mind. I think it's the walnut that makes the Saturn tone. I'd lay a whole dollar on it.
Hi Larry,

I don't mind at all, but I'll still accept your $1 bet :)
In a way, you're absolutely right. My favorite marketing study was done by a young girl whose dad was a radiologist. She did a taste test between Coke and Pepsi using a PET scan or FMRI. I think she measured activity in the nucleus accumbens. One of my old psych attending called it the James Brown center of you brain. I Feel Good.... Blinded to what they were drinking, Pepsi won in both the Coke and the Pepsi drinkers. They enjoyed the Pepsi more. Unblinded, the Coke drinkers liked Coke more, hands down, based on brain activity. I'll let you decide if it was the Coke flavoring or the Coke marketing the were "tasting". There isn't a clear cut answer to that. I will also let you decide if it's the 2mm Walnut ply you are hearing, or your expectation that the Walnut sounds different. In the end, it doesn't matter as long as you like what you "hear".
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  #91  
Old 08-11-2015, 04:14 PM
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

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Nope, sorry, have to call you on that, but it's not true.
Remember, it's wood, and there are actually several species of walnut.

Any particular species of walnut will have a density and janka hardness that will fall within a certain range. That actually may have a minimal effect on how it reflects sound, but not one you could hear based on a laminated inner ply. Also, if you look, you'll find dozens of other woods with densities and janka ratings similar to any species of Walnut. Whiter or Darker than walnut.

Pick up two raw kiln dried walnut boards from different sized trees or different cuts, flat or quarter, and you'll probably be able to tell they're different with your eyes closed. Tap on them and they'll sound different.
We tend to romanticize the species of wood a drum is made of, but we're talking about the inner layer of plywood here. The density won't be consistent, and it won't be something you can hear.

The Saturn V's tone will be the result of the drum's dimensions (diameter, depth, wall thickness, bearing edge), the heads they put on it, the skill/ears of the person who tuned it, hoops, and even venting, more than the species of a 1 or 2 mm thick inner ply. Honestly, I suspect the number of fairies that pee'd on the bearing edge before they put the heads on has an equal effect on the tone as the inner ply wood species. ;)

That said, if you love the way a drum sounds, that is all that really matters as long as it's well made. These sound like nice drums.
You do realize that there's more than just wood hardness that comes into play?

Why does birch sound different than maple? Why do acoustic instrument makers use different woods that have very different sounds?

You might have varying consistency in wood but I think you missed the point. The over all characteristics that the wood has is what is being observed. Every type of wood will have different effects on the vibrations traveling through them. Saying that a change of material won't change the sound is nonsense.
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  #92  
Old 08-11-2015, 04:27 PM
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

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Saying that a change of material won't change the sound is nonsense.
I think he's saying that in order to achieve the sonic differences between materials it has to be more substantial a change than just the inner ply of one part of a multi-part instrument.

Frankly, it makes sense that you'd see some difference, especially if the inner ply is significantly harder/smoother than the rest of the plies. Logically, you'd get the same effect as if you finished the interior of the drum with a smooth, polished material.

But it doesn't make sense that there'd be sonic difference of any greater significance than that. It seems to me that different materials have different kinds of resonance. Gluing different materials together just means that, after a certain tipping point, the dominant material will simply overwhelm the other material.

You don't get the sound of a rosewood marimba by laminating a ply of rosewood over a marimba key made of some other tonewood. You don't get the sound of rosewood unless it's made of rosewood. By the same token, a single, ~1mm ply of walnut in an ~8mm drum shell where the other plies are maple doesn't seem like it'll make a bit of difference. The maple and glue will overwhelm any resonance the walnut might possess, even if the walnut grain is cunningly placed in the ply layup.

Musical instruments are made of different tonewoods. But not in ply layup. If a guitar says "poplar/mahogany," the luthier has used poplar on the top and mahogany on the back and sides. He hasn't mixed the woods in the ply layup. Because solid wood vibrates musically. Same thing if an electric guitar says "ash body." It's 100% ash. Because that's how you get the tonal qualities of ash.

I remember someone talking about how drums are the only instrument where pro-level instruments are made of plies. Maybe it was Andy. (Who can probably settle the tonewood argument pretty quickly. Let's invoke him: KEEPITSIMPLE KEEPITSIMPLE KEEPITSIMPLE!)
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  #93  
Old 08-11-2015, 04:48 PM
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All other elements being equal, the affect of one wood species added to another in a ply layup is directly proportional to the percentage of the shell mass it occupies, plus a gain for inner ply additional shaping due to hardness & surface finish. Compared to a solid wood, the prominence of the species tone is then diminished by the lack of unique structure attributed to slicing it into thin sheets & the stiffening effect of a multi layer bonded construction. That's not a "better" statement, it just is.

As with every musical instrument, the affect of changing one element is either diminished or enhanced by the sum of the rest of the elements. This is why "specifications" are merely a guide to what you might expect. The skill is in aligning all the design elements towards a defined characteristic set. The most skilled create an instrument that's greater than the sum of it's parts. That's rare in itself, but very occasionally, it happens by default too.
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  #94  
Old 08-11-2015, 05:36 PM
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Does that mean what I think is true actually is true?
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  #95  
Old 08-11-2015, 05:40 PM
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You do realize that there's more than just wood hardness that comes into play?

Why does birch sound different than maple? Why do acoustic instrument makers use different woods that have very different sounds?

You might have varying consistency in wood but I think you missed the point. The over all characteristics that the wood has is what is being observed. Every type of wood will have different effects on the vibrations traveling through them. Saying that a change of material won't change the sound is nonsense.
I didn't say it won't have an effect. But it won't have one you can hear. Every other detail I listed will have a great effect on the sound than the species of the inner ply. To your other point, most of the wood on an acoustic guitar or other stringed instruments has almost zero effect on the tone. Only the soundboard material really matters. (edit, and the bracings) The strings matter too, as does the scale length. Beyond that it's really about shape and dimensions. My acoustic guitar's body is Ovangkol, but if it were made of maple or rosewood or any other species, you wouldn't be able to hear the difference. The soundboard equivalents for your drums are the heads.

Look, I love woodworking and have built guitars. I'll finish 3 more when my woodshop is completed in about 2 months. I also love the romantic aspect of musical instruments. Above all of that, however, I'm a scientist at heart. I've studied perceptual psychology and marketing as an undergraduate and in business school and I work on blinded clinical trials for a living. If you want to believe you can hear the difference in tone between two drums, where the sole difference is the species of the inner ply of its plywood shell, that's fine. I won't gain anything at all from changing your mind. In fact, I'll be sad if you are less happy with the science than you are with the magic. This goes back to the Coke vs Pepsi example I gave. Even if you like Pepsi cola better than Coke when you don't know what you're tasting, Coke can still "taste" better to you when you know it's Coke. What you believe affects how you perceive something.

I post information like this to offer you something that can help you see through marketing hype, but I don't want to decrease the pleasure you get from drinking your ice cold Coke-not-Pepsi, or from listening to your walnut inner ply drums.

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  #96  
Old 08-11-2015, 05:48 PM
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Does that mean what I think is true actually is true?
Sort of. It means if you believe it, you'll hear it. Or taste it. Or smell it. Or see it. Most of the time, there's nothing wrong with that if it makes us happy, and it keeps a lot of companies in business.
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Old 08-11-2015, 05:56 PM
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

Mr. Werner, I don't discount anything you say. However under oath I would be required to swear I hear a big difference, despite the research. Am I imagining that? My ears say no it's an actual thing. The reason? When I first heard Saturns, they caught my ear. They were different sounding than any toms I'd heard up till then. I didn't even know about the walnut then. I just knew they sounded deeper and richer to my ear. If there's one thing I trust...it's my hearing, and I definitely do hear a difference with Saturn drums compared to say a pure maple drum.

Don't you?

I'd really interested in hearing your reply.

My guess is you do hear a difference, but I'm going to say, that you're going to say, that it's not because of the walnut. Which is totally fine.

I'd be really surprised if you say no, you don't hear any difference at all.

So do you hear any differences in Saturns? If so to what do you attribute it to? I hope you don't think I am arguing with you. You have all my respect, but we differ here, I merely want to understand your stance further.

I don't know that you can take research on taste and apply it to sound either. Like I said IDK. It seems like a stretch, but again, I could be off.
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  #98  
Old 08-11-2015, 05:59 PM
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

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Sort of. It means if you believe it, you'll hear it. Or taste it. Or smell it. Or see it. Most of the time, there's nothing wrong with that if it makes us happy, and it keeps a lot of companies in business.
I'm with you. I don't think it makes much difference. I've never heard of a blind study where a clear difference has been established. For example, take two toms which are exactly the same except for the one variable of the inner ply, and let listeners rate them in a blind study. Even then you get subjective results, because no two pairs of ears are the same.

You could take those two toms and measure the sonic results using sensitive instruments to arrive at a differentiating metric, but I sincerely doubt those differences will be noticeable to a subjective listener. I'd prefer to see that kind of result in manufacturer advertising: "Our Megawesome Series with the walnut inner ply produces 25% more sound between 500 and 1500Hz, as compared to the Mostlyawesome Series, which is 100% maple. Look, here's the oscilloscope plot!" Okay, maybe not advertising, because JEEBUS that's boring, but it's still a more reliable claim than "thunderous, warm low end!", you know?

I also agree that it doesn't matter much anyway. If you like your Megawesome Series kit, that's...er...megawesome.
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Old 08-11-2015, 06:07 PM
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

Also, I perceive a difference between my intermediate-level all-maple kit versus my entry-level poplar kit, with the same heads and tuning. I ascribe the difference more to build quality than materials, however. It's easier to get a pleasing tone from my maple kit. The bearing edges are good on both kits (because I recut the bearing edges on the poplar kit), they're both in round. Neither have wrap. Both have suspension mounts on the toms. But the "sweet spot" is easier to find on the maple drums. Why? I dunno. The suspension systems are different; the maple kit's are proprietary and the poplar kit has Gibraltar add-ons. The rims are heavier on the maple kit. The sizes are exactly the same.

Perception does play into it. I think the maple kit should be "better" than the poplar kit, so maybe I just think it is.

I'm familiar with blind testing from my former career in brewing. It's always fun to cite blind-taste results when people start waxing rhapsodic about bottles versus cans to prove that the aluminum can is the better package for beer. :-D
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Old 08-11-2015, 06:15 PM
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Mr. Werner, I don't discount anything you say. However under oath I would be required to swear I hear a big difference, despite the research. Am I imagining that? My ears say no it's an actual thing. However as a hobbyist scientist myself, I must concede that it's possible I am tricking myself. However if there's one thing I trust it's my hearing, and I definitely do hear a difference with Saturn drums compared to say a pure maple drum.

Don't you?

I don't know that you can take research on taste and apply it to sound either. Like I said IDK. It seems like a stretch, but again, I could be off.
You're not tricking yourself. I'm sure you hear a difference. I might hear it too. I just probably wouldn't attribute it to the Walnut ply.

To me, whether you believe it's the Walnut inner ply is only important if that belief may lead to more or less happiness. If it leads to more happiness, that's awesome. If you can't afford that Walnut inner ply drum set, maybe it's nicer to believe I'm correct and be happy with the birch inner ply and a few extra Benjamins in your pocket.
Like STXBob said "... it doesn't matter much anyway. If you like your Megawesome Series kit, that's...er...megawesome." (Bob, in case you couldn't tell, I agree with what you said, and my other favorite study from marketing class was on beer taste testing!)

Oh yeah, please call me Todd.
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  #101  
Old 08-11-2015, 06:19 PM
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

Cool Todd. I prefer the first name thing too. Fair enough. Interesting discussion for sure. I like how you think.
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Old 08-11-2015, 06:43 PM
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

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I also love the romantic aspect of musical instruments. Above all of that, however, I'm a scientist at heart. I've studied perceptual psychology and marketing as an undergraduate and in business school and I work on blinded clinical trials for a living. If you want to believe you can hear the difference in tone between two drums, where the sole difference is the species of the inner ply of its plywood shell, that's fine. I won't gain anything at all from changing your mind. In fact, I'll be sad if you are less happy with the science than you are with the magic. This goes back to the Coke vs Pepsi example I gave. Even if you like Pepsi cola better than Coke when you don't know what you're tasting, Coke can still "taste" better to you when you know it's Coke. What you believe affects how you perceive something.

I post information like this to offer you something that can help you see through marketing hype, but I don't want to decrease the pleasure you get from drinking your ice cold Coke-not-Pepsi, or from listening to your walnut inner ply drums.
I'm really happy to find least one person on this forum who I can relate to so closely. Where science and romance intersect is an awkward place to have conversations, as I'm sure you know. At least in the U.S., they sometimes seem to not intersect at all.
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  #103  
Old 08-11-2015, 07:48 PM
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

We need more objective blind tests of drums. These could be very revealing.

But I get the point, in the end it may not matter. You go to the store and what you like by ear has a name, label, connotation or appearance that is simply not for you. We all like the aesthetic of what we play as well, and that is an influence. Seems marketing has proven that.

Am also pleased to learn there is a 'James Brown center' in the brain!
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  #104  
Old 08-11-2015, 08:51 PM
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

As stated in my other thread about alpi, I would prefer alpi over what Pearl does with its Artisan II finish. Apparently they're ink-jetting a wood finish on plastic? I'm slightly blown away by this. And not in a good way.
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Old 08-11-2015, 09:03 PM
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

I'm disappointed that Sonor's walnut roots finish is supposedly alpi. Only because I was led to believe it was real wood. I have no problem with alpi as a product. I must say if Sonor's walnut finish is alpi, then I'm impressed with the look of it.
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Old 08-11-2015, 09:05 PM
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Bo Eder View Post
As stated in my other thread about alpi, I would prefer alpi over what Pearl does with its Artisan II finish. Apparently they're ink-jetting a wood finish on plastic? I'm slightly blown away by this. And not in a good way.
I saw the pearl finish on some vision kits last year and I was disgusted with the look of it. It looks like a newspaper printing of wood that has been glued on and had clear coat put on top. You can see the dots easily and it doesn't look at all real. Pearl didn't put any effort into this finish at all.

EDIT:

The Apli finish on my Black Panther Velvetone kit is amazing. The shells glow lie fire even in low light and have a warm feel to them. I have zero complaints about it not being real burl.

Last edited by Winegums; 08-11-2015 at 09:47 PM.
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  #107  
Old 08-11-2015, 09:54 PM
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

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Originally Posted by Winegums View Post
I saw the pearl finish on some vision kits last year and I was disgusted with the look of it. It looks like a newspaper printing of wood that has been glued on and had clear coat put on top. You can see the dots easily and it doesn't look at all real. Pearl didn't put any effort into this finish at all.

EDIT:

The Apli finish on my Black Panther Velvetone kit is amazing. The shells glow lie fire even in low light and have a warm feel to them. I have zero complaints about it not being real burl.
I wish there were Saturn kits in stock some where I could see them. I'm fairly intrigued with how well they've done with Alpi and I'd like to see it in person. From what everyone is saying though, one could just buy a Saturn V and be completely happy.

Pearls' thing does not make me happy. Who would buy that?
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  #108  
Old 08-11-2015, 10:26 PM
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Bo Eder View Post
I wish there were Saturn kits in stock some where I could see them. I'm fairly intrigued with how well they've done with Alpi and I'd like to see it in person. From what everyone is saying though, one could just buy a Saturn V and be completely happy.

Pearls' thing does not make me happy. Who would buy that?
I have seen them in person and they look good. Much better than what Pearl does. Honestly that Artisan II stuff should only be on the cheapest kits. It shouldn't be on a Master's kit.
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Old 08-11-2015, 10:34 PM
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

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Originally Posted by Tommy_D View Post
I have seen them in person and they look good. Much better than what Pearl does. Honestly that Artisan II stuff should only be on the cheapest kits. It shouldn't be on a Master's kit.
Maybe Pearl does it to push people into the Reference lines? That'd be an interesting economic theory: the Masters would be considered their "on the fence" line, so they know you don't want to go down to the Session Studio Classics, and can probably afford better. People who consider the SSCs already know they can't move up. Marketing strikes again!
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Old 08-11-2015, 10:45 PM
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

I prefer the SSC's over the Masters kits. I also like the Wood Fiberglass series as well. The Masters just do not appeal to me though. Not just because of the Artisan II finishes (which I know you can get them without this finish), but I really dislike the Badges!!!



It reminds me of the new Milwaukee Brewers logo:



As a former Milwaukee-ian I find the new Brewers logo appalling when compared to the classic logo. Bad design change and it just "irks" me when I see it.

Oh yes, the badge hatin' is back!
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  #111  
Old 08-12-2015, 01:03 AM
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

A little off topic, but China devalued its currency today,
and markets all over took a nose dive: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/w...5/08/11/china/
Possible future drop in Mapex drum prices?
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  #112  
Old 08-12-2015, 01:25 AM
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

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Originally Posted by Tommy_D View Post
As a former Milwaukee-ian I find the new Brewers logo appalling when compared to the classic logo. Bad design change and it just "irks" me when I see it.
Oh yes, the badge hatin' is back!
So in between the lines you're saying they sent the badge to China for a design change?
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:01 AM
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

I love those pearl masters badges
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  #114  
Old 08-12-2015, 02:22 AM
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

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So in between the lines you're saying they sent the badge to China for a design change?
Ya know, I let your previous comment go because I felt it would derail this thread, but you came at me again so I'm going to call you out.

First off, infering that I am a racist because I suggested that someone may not want buy a kit that is made in China is absured and frankly should be deserving of an appology. Second, saying Im ethnically biased because I bring up examples of stolen design ideas by Chinese manufacturers is also absured. Its been well documented that Chinese manufacturers steal copyrighted designs to sell for their own gain. Does this happen in other parts of the world as well? Sure. But I'm willing to bet that it happens most often in China. If it happens more often in other parts of the world I would be shocked. Thats not being ethnically biased, its stating facts.

Now you come at me thinking everything I say has a biased opinion towards Chinese made products. That is simply not true and you should stop your trolling because your actions are taking this topic off track.

If you have something productive to add to this thread, then by all means participate. If not, keep you thoughts to yourself.
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Old 08-12-2015, 03:03 AM
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildbill View Post
A little off topic, but China devalued its currency today, and markets all over took a nose dive: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/w...5/08/11/china/
Possible future drop in Mapex drum prices?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy_D
But I'm willing to bet that it happens most often in China. If it happens more often in other parts of the world I would be shocked. Thats not being ethnically biased, its stating facts.
Point of order...? When you say "I'm willing to bet" and "IF...I'll be shocked" you're not stating facts. At all. On the contrary, you're making assumptions based on prejudice in lieu of actual fact.

Which is kinda his point. You have a history of slagging off Chinese stuff. You can't really blame someone for gently making fun of you for it. As a matter of fact, I remember you slagging off APAC-sourced gear even after the concept of QC was explained at great length. If that's true (and it might not be, I might be thinking about someone else), it's fair to say you deserve a bit of gentle ribbing. You know, for persisting with prejudice in the face of reality.

Also, both of y'all need to expand y'all's knowledge.

You're bitching about the wrong China, bros. Mapex is a KHS brand. KHS is Taiwan. ROC not PRC. Some of the product might be made in the People's Republic. But the development is not conducted there, nor is the business based there. They just get stuff made there. You know, just like every other damn manufacturer, including flag-waving MURIKAN brands like Ludwig and Gretsch, hell, even DW.

Just saying. For the record and all.
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Old 08-12-2015, 03:41 AM
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

Gretsch and Ludwig have their lower end stuff made in China.
Yamaha recently made the move there too for almost all their kits.
My Stage Custom kits were made in China, and I have very few complaints
about them.
I don't know about Mapex, but I think all their kits are made there (could be wrong about that though).

I only posted the link to that article because I thought some here might find it interesting.
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  #117  
Old 08-12-2015, 04:21 AM
Matt Bo Eder
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

I reiterate that I'm sure most people don't care where their drums (or anything else) are made. In fact, when you look at most products sold here in the states, it's so difficult to know where it came from, especially when you look at cars with a multitude of parts coming from a multitude of countries to make up that one car that was assembled either here in the US or elsewhere. I think we should all just understand that we're part of a global economy and everybody is linked together to a point, right?

I heard about China devaluing its currency today too, and according to all the talking heads on the new channels, this is good for China, but bad for everybody else because everyone else's economy would be affected by this in one way or another.

it would be interesting if it trickled into the drum market and all of a sudden you could get a Mapex Saturn V for even less what they charge now - which is already lower than many other top-end kits. Could be good to get folks into Mapex, at the cost of hurting other drum manufacturers who could see sales just stop because they're stuff just won't sell for the profit they expect. We shall see what happens there.
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  #118  
Old 08-12-2015, 04:21 AM
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildbill View Post
Gretsch and Ludwig have their lower end stuff made in China.
Yamaha recently made the move there too for almost all their kits.
My Stage Custom kits were made in China, and I have very few complaints
about them.
I don't know about Mapex, but I think all their kits are made there (could be wrong about that though).
The point is, as you've illustrated, that there's nothing wrong with that. With proper quality control, China produces world-class products.

Quote:
I only posted the link to that article because I thought some here might find it interesting.
I've been following it closely. It's showing how protective economic policy can be made to work for the benefit of a nation, when many Western leaders, likely at the behest of their plutocratic controllers, insist that a totally unfettered "free market" is the answer to everything. ;-)
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  #119  
Old 08-12-2015, 04:42 AM
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy_D View Post
Ya know, I let your previous comment go because I felt it would derail this thread, but you came at me again so I'm going to call you out.

First off, infering that I am a racist because I suggested that someone may not want buy a kit that is made in China is absured and frankly should be deserving of an appology. Second, saying Im ethnically biased because I bring up examples of stolen design ideas by Chinese manufacturers is also absured. Its been well documented that Chinese manufacturers steal copyrighted designs to sell for their own gain. Does this happen in other parts of the world as well? Sure. But I'm willing to bet that it happens most often in China. If it happens more often in other parts of the world I would be shocked. Thats not being ethnically biased, its stating facts.

Now you come at me thinking everything I say has a biased opinion towards Chinese made products. That is simply not true and you should stop your trolling because your actions are taking this topic off track.

If you have something productive to add to this thread, then by all means participate. If not, keep you thoughts to yourself.
Well apologies. You are right. But I was really trying to get you to actually check your facts. You need a large sample size to say something is a trend.

Think about it. Chinese companies are in business like all others and so of course are competitive in imitating anything that sells... like ALL other companies. I think it is productive to point out such realities.

I never said you are a racist.... but one's comments can be racist.

like many others I find Mapex gets a bad rap on this site and there have been many anti Chinese sentiments on this and many other threads. At times they are grossly unfair. So carry on.
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  #120  
Old 08-12-2015, 04:59 AM
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Default Re: Mapex Saturn V

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I'm familiar with blind testing from my former career in brewing. It's always fun to cite blind-taste results when people start waxing rhapsodic about bottles versus cans to prove that the aluminum can is the better package for beer. :-D
Apologies for galloping thread drift...

Are you talking about (double) blind taste tests where the beer is poured from the can/bottle into a glass?

I'm guessing that the answer is yes, 'cause most people can tell whether they are drinking from a bottle or from a can.

Speaking as a troglodyte who only ever pours Hefe-weizen beers into a glass, enjoys drinking from a bottle and hates drinking from a can.
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