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  #41  
Old 04-13-2009, 09:12 PM
Mediocrefunkybeat
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Default Re: how jazz.....

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Originally Posted by Pavlos View Post
What? Sorry man, but I think you don't understand the definition of music. It's not just harmony and melody, but also rhythm. In fact, I would argue that time and rhythm may be more important to the definition of music than harmony and melody.

I get a little annoyed when people say drummers aren't real musicians. It's not true. What is true is that some people may focus on more advanced drumming technique without getting the fundamentals down first. That simply makes them poor musicians.
Read the rest of my post. I said the same of guitarists and of, in fact, many musicians. Drummers are more susceptible because of the mechanical nature of the instrument.

Sorry, but saying rhythm is more important is plain wrong - at least in the Western tradition. If you've done any kind of studying of Western music, then you'll understand that in terms of precedence, what makes Western music stand differently (note, not 'better') from say, Indian Folk Music is the emphasis on harmony. Our harmonic rules are incredibly complex. Try explaining what a German sixth is to someone without a decent level of knowledge and you'll lose them.

That's why Jazz is interesting. It breaks from the tradition of Western Classical music into introducing rhythm as something more than arbitrary; but what defines Jazz is generally still a set of harmonic concepts, although rhythmic concepts are also contained in a strict definition - especially in earlier Jazz. Rhythm is not approached in the definition of most Western music, and as a result, drummers - as rhythmic players - are largely irrelevant in the history of this music. It took Jazz to make it important in any kind of basis for a definition.

In contrast, Indian Folk Music relies on the rhythmic ideas as part of its musical identity - harmony is far less important and as a result, less developed. Much like rhythm is much less developed in Western music by contrast.
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  #42  
Old 04-13-2009, 09:14 PM
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Default Re: how jazz.....

I don't know what the heck you guys are talking about, I just like to hit things...
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  #43  
Old 04-13-2009, 09:19 PM
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I don't know what the heck you guys are talking about, I just like to hit things...
Drummers...
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  #44  
Old 04-13-2009, 09:21 PM
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Default Re: how jazz.....

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I don't know what the heck you guys are talking about, I just like to hit things...

Brilliant!... sign me up too Garvin :}...... these jazz debates give me a raging headache :{

Let's play music folks and bring some peace to the world.....
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  #45  
Old 04-13-2009, 09:24 PM
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...... these jazz debates give me a raging headache :{
I suggest significant hydration. Tea generally helps with this.
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  #46  
Old 04-13-2009, 09:26 PM
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I suggest significant hydration. Tea generally helps with this.

LOL!!!..................
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  #47  
Old 04-13-2009, 09:31 PM
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Default Re: how jazz.....

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Originally Posted by Mediocrefunkybeat View Post
Sorry, but saying rhythm is more important is plain wrong - at least in the Western tradition...

Rhythm is not approached in the definition of most Western music, and as a result, drummers - as rhythmic players - are largely irrelevant in the history of this music. It took Jazz to make it important in any kind of basis for a definition.
OK. Definetely some good points. I did say MAY be more important. I don't claim to know the definitive answer to that. But rhythm is present in classical music. What do you mean by saying it's not "approached"? Not played by a drummer? Is the percussionist playing the timpani, etc not a musician just like the guy playing the oboe, etc? And what is the conductors role if not to set rhythmic pace in addition to dynamics? How would a symphony orchestra sound without rhythm? Like a complete atonal mess, if everyone was following a different rhythm.

I see what you mean though about drummers (or other instrument players) not being musicians. My definition is just different. If you can play music then you're a musician. I'm keepin it simple!
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  #48  
Old 04-13-2009, 09:35 PM
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Default Re: how jazz.....

There's no such thing as an atonal mess. You're talking to an admirer of Schoenberg here!

Rhythm is present but not present in the definition. So for instance, I might say that Western Classical Music encompasses a style composed from the remnants of Chant music that emerged in the eighteenth century and makes significant use of both tonic and dominant devices within a complex harmonic structure and often with significant and large orchestration. Whilst this is far from a perfect definition, I think it serves functionally. The fact is, rhythm is not approached in a functional definition. By contrast, if I were to define 'Drum 'n' Bass' music, I'd say that the music contains a strong emphasis on heavy, often syncopated rhythm(s) and bass sounds with the use of electronic instrumentation and usually at rapid tempi. See there is a music that sacrifices complex harmony.

Both use harmony, both use rhythm. Both use them in definition entirely differently.
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  #49  
Old 04-13-2009, 09:43 PM
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Great. Now I have to look up Schoenberg? Does his music not have time signatures?

I'm not really sure what you mean by a certain component not being included in a definition. We do agree it's there though, whether defined or not. And that it may be more emphasized in some forms over others.
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  #50  
Old 04-13-2009, 09:45 PM
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Great. Now I have to look up Schoenberg? Does his music not have time signatures?

I'm not really sure what you mean by a certain component not being included in a definition. We do agree it's there though, whether defined or not. And that it may be more emphasized in some forms over others.
What I'm saying is that in Classical Music, the rhythm is largely irrelevant in what defines it as 'Classical Music'. In Drum and Bass, this is not so.

Schoenberg does have time signatures. He also composed atonally, in the true sense of the word. There is no traditional harmony because there is no tonal centre. His work led to ideas such as twelve-tone composition and serialism. Latterly he was arguably a serialist composer, but his best work (for me) is the really early atonal stuff. Rather fond of 'Drei Klavierstucke' and particularly number two of those three.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-E-9edvI2g

Rather too fast a performance, but the idea is there. This isn't particularly atonal or serialist, but I like it a lot.
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  #51  
Old 04-13-2009, 10:03 PM
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Default Re: how jazz.....

Uh ok. What were we dabating again?

I'm listening to the Shonberg now. It's actually not bad. But without rhythmic time signatures how would the piece I'm listening to be played each time by varying groups of musicians. Would it sound drastically different each time?

I guess I'm still not seeing your point that rhythm is not important or defined in western (or any other) music. My personal take is that without rhythm the whole thing falls apart and is essential to 99.999% of all music. Even if a drummer is there or not.

I think we do agree that drummers are musicians though right?
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  #52  
Old 04-13-2009, 10:06 PM
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Default Re: how jazz.....

I'm saying it entirely depends on the drummer. Whether they are either inherently musical or not depends entirely on how they play. My point is that rhythm is defined in other forms of music as an inherent aspect of the genre, whatever that may be. It just so happens that a lot of Western music does not emphasise a rhythmic motif as part of its genre definition.

Schoenberg does write with time signatures. Just no key. The music is thoroughly notated. I had to analyse scores in my last term at Uni.
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  #53  
Old 04-13-2009, 10:18 PM
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Default Re: how jazz.....

I think Schoneberg would be one composer for whom rhythm plays an extraordinarily important role, as in Klavierstucke. Rhythm is an important part of the classical style. It is just that scholars have chosen not to concentrate on it. If you look at the music of Mozart, esp the operas, the rhythmic gestures are often chosen for symbolic purpose. Take for example Se Voul Baillare from Figaro. The sections of the song are orgainized into two contrasting dance forms, Contradanse to represent Figaro and Minuet to represent The Count.
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  #54  
Old 04-13-2009, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Mediocrefunkybeat View Post
Schoenberg does write with time signatures. Just no key. The music is thoroughly notated. I had to analyse scores in my last term at Uni.
Oops, sorry, missed that. I'm going to jam some Shoenberg at my next party though. Should get the dance floor boppin!

I guess I'm just not too concerned with how much the rhythm is emphasized in a definition. imo, It's in there and it's just as essential to all forms of music as harmony and melody (maybe more so). I don't want to come off as abrasive, but when I hear stuff about drummers not being real musicians it gets me POed a bit. (and I think I did misinterpret your initial statement). I've played piano a lot longer than I did drums and I think players of both deserve equal billing as musicians. (ok. I was forced to play piano. Evil parents : - 0 )
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  #55  
Old 04-13-2009, 10:24 PM
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Default Re: how jazz.....

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I think Schoneberg would be one composer for whom rhythm plays an extraordinarily important role, as in Klavierstucke. Rhythm is an important part of the classical style. It is just that scholars have chosen not to concentrate on it. If you look at the music of Mozart, esp the operas, the rhythmic gestures are often chosen for symbolic purpose. Take for example Se Voul Baillare from Figaro. The sections of the song are orgainized into two contrasting dance forms, Contradanse to represent Figaro and Minuet to represent The Count.
Oh absolutely. If you analyse the themes, then there's no doubt that rhythm IS important. But the concepts and tools of rhythm are still relatively under-developed, especially when you compare it to the likes of Indian Classical/Folk Music where the ideas of Rag and Tal intercombine to form both rhythm AND melody at the same time with the same notes. Tabla players are a great example of this. Jazz undermines much of this and the ideas explored (especially with the later bop and post-bop period) are rhythmically complex and significant musically.

But when you compare Classical music to Indian music, you quickly realise how relatively simplistic the Western concept of rhythm is, and, in comparison, the Indian concept of harmony is. This largely has to do with the development of musical instruments capable of playing in all keys in the West (valves and tempered tunings have a lot to do with this), but the music is based upon essentially straight permutations and divisions of total values, eg. crotchets in a bar - whereas the rhythmic ideas in other musical styles do not work in quite the same, simplistic way.
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  #56  
Old 04-13-2009, 10:29 PM
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Default Re: how jazz.....

How come these threads get so hijacked and skewed? !!!!
I'm looking at this from jazzgregg -

>> Maybe, but there is a difference between having a deep understanding of drums and a deep understanding of music.=) <<

It seems a very simple statement to me, and very true. But people have jumped on it and torn it to pieces!!
It's not just drummers. I've known loads of people, like guitarists for instance who can lay down the riffs, know all the chords and do blistering solos, but when it comes to arranging a song, coming up with an ending for a cover that fades, doing a riff say five times instead of four cos it feels more "right" - they just don't have a clue. They are locked into the technical business of playing the instrument and the buzz of being the centre of attention. People even think they're good. They may be "playing music". But they are not Musical.
I knew a keyboard player years ago who'd been playing clubs for 20 years or so, still couldn't play a note without the dots in front of him - after all those years playing the same songs, didn't he know them?
Also a guitarist who thought he was terrific, and played like a demon, but couldn't jam or impro for toffee, and if the singer "changed" the song he just went to pieces.
When I counted in a song like "Delilah" ONE-2-3-TWO-2-3 - he couldn't understand why.
And that song that started on beat 2 - I clicked in 5 beats - he took ages to get it, and then when he got it, he asked me if it was in 5/4 !!
In contrast, I worked with a singer/writer who was very creative, knew exactly what he wanted from me and the others, and could communicate it to us so we knew exactly what he wanted. He wasn't the greatest singer, technically, but he understood music, understood how to work a crowd, and understood how to drive a band. Well, he more than understood music- it was part of him.
I loved it. We were gutted when he quit.
Another way of putting it is - think of all those players you've seen who have all the chops but an utter lack of feel. All those guys who make you think "wow" but they don't touch your heart.
Rant over. -Terry
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  #57  
Old 04-14-2009, 01:38 AM
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Default Re: how jazz.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by tezzerii View Post
How come these threads get so hijacked and skewed? !!!!
I'm looking at this from jazzgregg -

>> Maybe, but there is a difference between having a deep understanding of drums and a deep understanding of music.=) <<

It seems a very simple statement to me, and very true. But people have jumped on it and torn it to pieces!!
It's not just drummers. I've known loads of people, like guitarists for instance who can lay down the riffs, know all the chords and do blistering solos, but when it comes to arranging a song, coming up with an ending for a cover that fades, doing a riff say five times instead of four cos it feels more "right" - they just don't have a clue. They are locked into the technical business of playing the instrument and the buzz of being the centre of attention. People even think they're good. They may be "playing music". But they are not Musical.
I knew a keyboard player years ago who'd been playing clubs for 20 years or so, still couldn't play a note without the dots in front of him - after all those years playing the same songs, didn't he know them?
Also a guitarist who thought he was terrific, and played like a demon, but couldn't jam or impro for toffee, and if the singer "changed" the song he just went to pieces.
When I counted in a song like "Delilah" ONE-2-3-TWO-2-3 - he couldn't understand why.
And that song that started on beat 2 - I clicked in 5 beats - he took ages to get it, and then when he got it, he asked me if it was in 5/4 !!
In contrast, I worked with a singer/writer who was very creative, knew exactly what he wanted from me and the others, and could communicate it to us so we knew exactly what he wanted. He wasn't the greatest singer, technically, but he understood music, understood how to work a crowd, and understood how to drive a band. Well, he more than understood music- it was part of him.
I loved it. We were gutted when he quit.
Another way of putting it is - think of all those players you've seen who have all the chops but an utter lack of feel. All those guys who make you think "wow" but they don't touch your heart.
Rant over. -Terry
Clearly I agree Terry and I'm glad there's another who gets it. That was simultaneously a great and disturbing anecdote while also being a perfect example!

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  #58  
Old 04-14-2009, 04:30 PM
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Default Re: how jazz.....

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Originally Posted by tezzerii View Post
How come these threads get so hijacked and skewed? !!!!
I'm looking at this from jazzgregg -

It seems a very simple statement to me, and very true. But people have jumped on it and torn it to pieces!! -Terry
It's one of the most cliched things that people say around here, esp as related to drumers like Marco Minnemann and Tommy Lang. Drummers with a lot of technique, i.e virtuosos. So it's not really a revelation.
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  #59  
Old 04-14-2009, 04:43 PM
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Default Re: how jazz.....

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Originally Posted by Mediocrefunkybeat View Post
Oh absolutely. If you analyse the themes, then there's no doubt that rhythm IS important. But the concepts and tools of rhythm are still relatively under-developed, especially when you compare it to the likes of Indian Classical/Folk Music where the ideas of Rag and Tal intercombine to form both rhythm AND melody at the same time with the same notes. Tabla players are a great example of this. Jazz undermines much of this and the ideas explored (especially with the later bop and post-bop period) are rhythmically complex and significant musically.

.
Yes, but we do have the Rite of Spring. And if you are a musician, you are expected to be able to play Mozart's Jupiter and Stravinsky's Rite of Spring, along with Schoenberg's Variations for Orchestra. Just as if you are a drummer and you want to make a living at this, you need to be able to play, funk, rock, jazz and Latin styles, so that when the call comes for a big band gig, you don't say, "I can't make that 200 bucks because I can't play with a big band. :)
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  #60  
Old 04-14-2009, 06:37 PM
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Default Re: how jazz.....

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Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
It's one of the most cliched things that people say around here, esp as related to drumers like Marco Minnemann and Tommy Lang. Drummers with a lot of technique, i.e virtuosos. So it's not really a revelation.

I would say that about Lang before Minneman. Lang's playing is extremely "lick-based". He's playing patterns at an incredible level but Marco is actually creating some sick stuff when he solos.

As far as not knowing music vs drums, the only yardstick we can go by is whether that drummer/musician is actually intentionally creating music or just repeating patterns that sound good. Does he employ musical concepts of form such as exposition, development and recapitulation or does he just bang away at 200 MPH? This obviously implies a knowledagble listener who can discern between the two.

Don't think we're gonna settle this one here because we won't...

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  #61  
Old 04-16-2009, 02:29 AM
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Default Re: how jazz.....

Let's get down to the *real* issue of this thread:

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Originally Posted by Average View Post
3) I have jazz hands.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJAfE_UTCuk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATduGoh9I24
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  #62  
Old 04-19-2009, 12:15 AM
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First, I am a born and raised jazz drummer. I don't try to pass that off as a badge of honor or anything, it is just a fact. I learned jazz first and then branched out into other forms of music from there. I got my first paycheck for a jazz gig at around 13 if I am remembering right. What jazz did for me was teach me about listening to other players. I learned how to play with touch and how to help other musicians build energy in their solos. Jazz also has a different feel to it than straight ahead 8th note based rock and roll. Think dotted quarter note, dotted 8th note and triplets for jazz. I can play straight ahead rock, but a lot of the jazz feel oozes into my playing whether I like it or not.

Those are the advantages. Here are a few problems that can develop from jazz training. I have to look at my playing over the years honestly if I am going to improve. These are some of the insights I have gained from long and hard critique of my own playing.

1) Sometimes I tend to overplay when playing straight ahead rock or blues tunes. This includes all sorts of things like playing 3/4 over 4/4 feeling fills etc. If I am playing with other musicians who are used to that feel it doesn't cause any problems, but if I am playing with straight ahead 8th note players it can really screw them up. If you grow up playing jazz you have to watch for this constantly.
2) I have jazz foot. I have to constantly pay attention to how hard I am hitting the bass drum. In jazz I use the bass drum mainly for accents here and there. I also hit it over a range of dynamics so one hit might not sound the same as the next. The feel I developed is great for jazz, not so great when the bass drum and snare are providing the main feel of the song.
3) I have jazz hands. I have the same problem with the snare drum as I do with the bass drum. I have to concentrate on hitting the snare nice and loud and at a consistent volume or the backbeat tends to get lost in the music. I also tend to use the ride cymbal or hi-hat as a main voice to drive the groove and it just doesn't work so well for rock/blues.
4) Because I am used to listening to other players rather than just laying down a groove, I can sometimes let the tempo vary a bit. Like it or not, if you listen to what the bass player and the guitarist are doing, you will tend to adjust your playing to them and the tempo can get away from you in a hurry. ALL bands do this when playing live so I am not sure what the best solution is. Even Steve Gadd does this with Clapton.
5) I haven't been elitist in the last 15 or more years, but really good jazz players can tend to look down on other drummers. In my opinion, that mentality is a mistake that will hold the jazz drummer back. It is best to keep an open mind. You can learn something from every drummer you go see.
that like sums my drumming up!, looking back on recordings of myself, i realised i over play ALOT!
and my left hand is always going, playing ghost notes...which can be good but i rarely have conviction in my snare strikes....al l to be worked on though!
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Old 04-19-2009, 09:06 AM
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Default Re: how jazz.....

All of that doesn't necessarilly make you a "jazz drummer", I'm sorry. It might make you a drummer-who-plays-jazz-a-lot-and-needs-to-work-on-a-lot-of-stuff. That sounds more likely.
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  #64  
Old 04-19-2009, 04:02 PM
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Default Re: how jazz.....

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All of that doesn't necessarilly make you a "jazz drummer", I'm sorry. It might make you a drummer-who-plays-jazz-a-lot-and-needs-to-work-on-a-lot-of-stuff. That sounds more likely.
thanks for making me feel bad.....:(
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  #65  
Old 04-19-2009, 04:10 PM
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Default Re: how jazz.....

So what does makes a jazz drummer, Colonel?
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  #66  
Old 04-21-2009, 02:03 AM
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Default Re: how jazz.....

...Jazz hands.

I'll come back and answer this later. Just popped in for a minute - didn't expect such an epic question.
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Old 04-21-2009, 10:40 PM
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Default Re: how jazz.....

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All of that doesn't necessarilly make you a "jazz drummer", I'm sorry. It might make you a drummer-who-plays-jazz-a-lot-and-needs-to-work-on-a-lot-of-stuff. That sounds more likely.
I'm not saying that it does, but things like ghost notes are a vital part of jazz drumming! thay require great skill and finesse and the odds are that if you can play awkward jazz beatswith the left hand you are that much closer to becomming a good jazz drummer, no?
...in my opinion (and it's just an opinion) it's better to have trouble not playing ghost notes rather than the other way around. To familiarise yourself with awkward jazz beats is really hard, to learn funk soul and reggee songs, to me, was much easier

but i learned jazz first, thats why i made that post....on the troubles i had at the beginning of going into other genres.
cheers, Bryan
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  #68  
Old 04-21-2009, 11:29 PM
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To familiarise yourself with awkward jazz beats
You shouldn't be 'learning jazz beats' at all. In fact you should be comping spontaneously rather than playing for scripted - that requires left handed co-ordination.
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  #69  
Old 04-22-2009, 12:05 AM
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You shouldn't be 'learning jazz beats' at all. In fact you should be comping spontaneously rather than playing for scripted - that requires left handed co-ordination.

I actually ment it like that....i dont really learn jazz beats off musicians, mabye some ones, but i just experiment...
when i said that i just really ment getting good syncopation, i did'nt mean actually scripted out manuscripts.....to have a good left hand in jazz you should be able to do what you want with the left hand!...meaning long hours of practicing co-ordination
....although i have heard good things about books like beyond bop drumming and so forth
cheers, Bryan
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