DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > General Discussion

General Discussion General discussion forum for all drum related topics. Use this forum to exchange ideas and information with your fellow drummers.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #1  
Old 12-11-2014, 05:37 PM
BFrench501 BFrench501 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 219
Default Some advice needed re: accuracy of songs

Hi guys I haven't been on for a while so I hope you are all well for Xmas and New Year! Silly stubbed my 3 little toes on my kicking foot so I'm not a happy bunny. Anyway.... :D

I am trying to 'progress' (if thats the right word) to playing in function bands. I am finding this quite difficult at the moment and struggling to understand how things work on the scene.

I see so many good drummers who are more than capable of playing the exact parts as written on drum tracks, yet they really minimalise what is being played.

A classic example I've seen is an artist endorsed by Paiste, Mapex, CCODE etc who I want to have lessons off. Brilliant drummer. Yet when he plays 'Are You Gonna Be My Girl' in a promo video for a function band, he plays it to make the whole thing sound sterile and flat. Anyone familar with the song will know that there is tons of crashing on the ride before leading to each verse. And also there are some tricky fills in there.

So perfect ability to play the parts right and chooses not to. Why is this?

I pride myself on trying to be as authentic to the parts as possible, and I think it really does help the music move along better when it carries more authenticity. It makes preparing for gigs harder because I worry about the fine details but I just hate 'busking' out tunes.

Can anyone give me some kind of positive spin on how I feel. I just think good drummers who choose not to execute the parts as written are just bone idle and lazy because if you know it, why choose not to?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-11-2014, 05:59 PM
bermuda's Avatar
bermuda bermuda is offline
Drummerworld Pro Drummer - Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 9,131
Default Re: Some advice needed re: accuracy of songs

When playing a straight cover, there's definitely a laziness factor when any musician doesn't strive to play 'the parts'. Sometimes their excuse is 'I want to make it my own', but that generally doesn't result in playing less than what's on the record.

Worse than the laziness factor is that some musicians just don't care. They don't care about how they sound, they don't care if they stay in the band, they don't care about pleasing the people that are paying them to play.

So yes, musicians should take the time to play the parts, or take the time to genuinely make the song their own (if the listeners will accept it.) But doing less should never be acceptable. There are too many other players willing to put in a little extra time and thought into their gigs, and behave like it matters... like the pros do.

Bermuda
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-11-2014, 08:09 PM
double_G's Avatar
double_G double_G is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 784
Default Re: Some advice needed re: accuracy of songs

agreed 100%. i am stumped as to why great players continue to do this. my feel is, learn the parts note-for-note (or damn) close and then let the flow / music take it to *your* original voice, interpretation. even so, i stay pretty close to the cover. Tower of Power is perfect example here & i am constantly picking up nuances from Garibaldi from album & live shows. its a constant process to do the tune justice. it matters to me...perfectionism runs in my family, so hmm.

as a fan of certain bands, i hear name drummers blow off ICONIC fills (created by another / original drummer). its a huge let down as a fan of the tune / band for me. i have an example, but dont want to diss...
__________________
Fortune Drums | Yamaha | Bosphorus and Sabian
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-11-2014, 08:33 PM
brentcn brentcn is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,943
Default Re: Some advice needed re: accuracy of songs

Quote:
Originally Posted by BFrench501 View Post

A classic example I've seen is an artist endorsed by Paiste, Mapex, CCODE etc who I want to have lessons off. Brilliant drummer. Yet when he plays 'Are You Gonna Be My Girl' in a promo video for a function band, he plays it to make the whole thing sound sterile and flat.
Which should tell you that this guy is probably not the right teacher for you, if you want to tear apart songs and learn them accurately. You don't ever hear of a drummer being fired or failing an audition because he played the parts too close to the original.

So why would a capable drummer simplify or misinterpret the original part? Many reasons.

1. The drummer is more interested in self-expression. Accurately learning someone else's part is therefore "work" and only gets so much effort.

2. The band needs the part to be simplified in order to stay on together (hey, it happens).

3. The drummer had hardly any time to learn the song, and prioritized the song's overall structure over fills and rhythmic details. This happens more than you'd think, and being able to "fake it until you make it" is a good skill to have.

4. The drummer hates the song or generally playing covers, and his emotions trump his work ethic.

5. The drummer believes that great drumming is improvisational, and prefers to make up parts on the fly, rather than know in advance what to play.

6. He's not as good or as versatile as you think he is. As we get better on our instrument, we're more able to spot others' shortcomings.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-11-2014, 08:43 PM
larryace's Avatar
larryace larryace is offline
"Uncle Larry"
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In beautiful Bucks County, PA
Posts: 21,262
Default Re: Some advice needed re: accuracy of songs

If the others aren't playing the exact parts then sometimes the original drum part doesn't feel as good. So it depends on how the others are playing it. I don't learn covers note for note anymore because no one else does in the band. I base my playing on the others, always.

We do however capture the essence and feel of the original, that's not negotiable. Sometimes the instrumentation isn't there like the original. Like we do The Band's "Up On Cripple Creek". There is no wah wah keyboard because we don't have keyboards. So it sounds different, but the feel is bang on. I play covers so my parts fit with how the others are playing the cover. No one really knows or cares what the exact drum parts are, so as long as the major highlights are done true to the song, in their proper order, the rest is my interpretation of what Levon Helm was doing. Which I do emulate to the best of my ability for sure, but it's not transcribed or anything.

I don't even worry about that stuff. We are not The Band so it's going to end up sounding as our take on the song, which is extremely close, but not exact at all.

Tribute bands are another story. You have to really get anal with them.

Sometimes I like our version of a song better than the famous original. "Wagon Wheel" (Darius Rucker's version)... great song, but I really don't care for the original feel. It's too rushed to me, too produced, and not the proper feel for that particular song. IMO. I much refer our version which is a tad more laid back and has a more authentic country feeling to it. My man can really play the snot out of pedal steel leads on his guitar...and they sound sooo sweet....Other people have told us they prefer our version too.

We do "Sweet Home Alabama". I know that part exact. But the others don't do signature stuff that the original part is based on. I still play my part like the record, but it doesn't work as well as the record...in certain places... because some signature guitar stuff is omitted. In that case it sounds better that at least I'm nailing certain rhythmic figures, even though they are supposed to be doubled by a guitar figure, which is absent.

I agree that when I am listening to a band doing a cover song, I want it to be close as possible, with all the major highlights played as close as possible. As long as the feel is there, the spirit is there, the arrangement is there, I don't sweat it if the notes aren't a perfect match.
__________________
Levis/Hanes/Timberlands/Custom made socks
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-11-2014, 10:21 PM
yesdog's Avatar
yesdog yesdog is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: chicago suburbs
Posts: 795
Default Re: Some advice needed re: accuracy of songs

The only time I would back off is when the room sounds horrible and boomy. I found it suits the sound best when you back off on cymbal crashes and busy fills. I still try my best to make said song sound correctly, I just make the busy fills less busy,but sound similar. I hate that when I see a drummer that I know,and is perfectly capable of playing cover tunes well. Instead they are faking there way thru songs or overplaying. That saying "make it my own" is a cop out excuse. The second you play a song you just made it your own, because you are playing it
__________________
IT'S ALL ABOUT FUN PEOPLE!!!!



http://www.youtube.com/user/slfsc
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-11-2014, 10:28 PM
drummer-russ's Avatar
drummer-russ drummer-russ is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: St. Peters Mo
Posts: 1,176
Default Re: Some advice needed re: accuracy of songs

I agree with the points made by others. I first learn song structure including breaks, then the groove, key fills and then continue to add nuances as I play it more. Of all the points made by others, to the original poster, this point is the most pertinent in my opinion;
"Which should tell you that this guy is probably not the right teacher for you"
__________________
Playing live in front of appreciative audience is the 2nd best thing in the world!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-12-2014, 09:57 AM
BFrench501 BFrench501 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 219
Default Re: Some advice needed re: accuracy of songs

Thanks for the comments guys. It's very confusing because the attitude of so many drummers I've played around all say I am too obsessed with details and that nobody cares.

I don't like the idea that I should lessen what I play because somebody won't notice it. They may not go "he missed out those ghost notes", but they may suss out that something is wrong but they don't know what.

There are some songs I cannot replicate as I am not good enough and that upsets me when I have to do something else. My Generation - I have to play that straight as I cannot do the swinging that Keith Moon did on the record, although live he played it straight anyway. I certainly can't do the mad fills at the end which were all over the place so I have to play a series of 16th note ghosted triplets on the snare with my left hand while accenting the quarter notes on crash, snare and toms with my right.

But there are some songs where I really try to replicate and it has wowed people. I don't play Basketcase to the letter as such, some of what Tre Cool does is very underrated, but I very much capute the essence of what is played as much as I can. Everyone I've ever played the song with depping wise has said they wished their regular drummers put in as much effort.

But then in the same breath they say not to worry about all the tiny nuances, to an autistic drummer that is not a good way to make me feel settled! :)

Thanks for wading through my long posts I wish I had a way to condense things better without going round the houses.

Baz
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-12-2014, 10:20 AM
JustJames's Avatar
JustJames JustJames is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 3,175
Default Re: Some advice needed re: accuracy of songs

You are right; they are wrong.

There will always be things that you can't replicate, but you should always go into a song aiming to replicate what the original drummer did. Otherwise why bother learning more than the money beat?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-12-2014, 02:29 PM
Chollyred Chollyred is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Loganville, Ga.
Posts: 347
Default Re: Some advice needed re: accuracy of songs

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
We do "Sweet Home Alabama". I know that part exact. But the others don't do signature stuff that the original part is based on. I still play my part like the record, but it doesn't work as well as the record...in certain places... because some signature guitar stuff is omitted. In that case it sounds better that at least I'm nailing certain rhythmic figures, even though they are supposed to be doubled by a guitar figure, which is absent.

I agree that when I am listening to a band doing a cover song, I want it to be close as possible, with all the major highlights played as close as possible. As long as the feel is there, the spirit is there, the arrangement is there, I don't sweat it if the notes aren't a perfect match.
After coming back into drumming after a lifetime layoff (30+ years), I've had to re-learn a lot of drum parts. Youtube has become my best friend in that regard. However, looking at original drum parts and the same bands with replacement drummers, rarely are the drum parts exactly like the original; although the major licks and fills are there.

I've watched a lot of Skynard's before/now videos. Their drummer now plays a lot of parts differently than Artimus Pyle, but still maintains the same feel of the song.

When re-learning, I try to watch several versions to find the one that I like best (and still have the skills to do :) ) and try to mimic that. It could be a version of the original band, or even a cover band's version.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-12-2014, 07:37 PM
patrice patrice is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Bangkok (Thailand)
Posts: 169
Default Re: Some advice needed re: accuracy of songs

Quote:
Originally Posted by drummer-russ View Post
I agree with the points made by others. I first learn song structure including breaks, then the groove, key fills and then continue to add nuances as I play it more. Of all the points made by others, to the original poster, this point is the most pertinent in my opinion;
"Which should tell you that this guy is probably not the right teacher for you"
Sorry, I don't have time right now to answer the OP's question.

But I totally disagree that the drummer (he mentioned)'s performance "should tell you that this guy is probably not the right teacher for you".

No matter how he fits into a band. Or - according to someone else's opinion - does not fit into a band: he might still be a great teacher! Obviously there is something the OP likes about the guy's drumming, which is why he wanted to book a few lessons with him.

I have experienced guys who are fabulous drummers, but fairly useless as teachers. And I have also experienced guys who are fabulous teachers, but whose playing in a band setting I do not like at all.

Just my 2 cents… Peace.

Patrice
__________________
Ooh & The Ballyhoo
Pearl MLX
Paiste 2002, 2000 Color Sound, Visions, Dimensions, Twenty [Masters]
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-12-2014, 08:39 PM
bermuda's Avatar
bermuda bermuda is offline
Drummerworld Pro Drummer - Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 9,131
Default Re: Some advice needed re: accuracy of songs

Quote:
Originally Posted by BFrench501 View Post
Thanks for the comments guys. It's very confusing because the attitude of so many drummers I've played around all say I am too obsessed with details and that nobody cares.
You will be the pro that this other drummer/"teacher" is not.

Bermuda
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-12-2014, 10:49 PM
brentcn brentcn is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,943
Default Re: Some advice needed re: accuracy of songs

Quote:
Originally Posted by BFrench501 View Post
It's very confusing because the attitude of so many drummers I've played around all say I am too obsessed with details and that nobody cares.
Just to be thorough -- there are gigs where getting the details of a recording exactly right is just not how success is measured, but they are usually jazz/fusion/blues/improv gigs and not pop/rock gigs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BFrench501 View Post
I don't like the idea that I should lessen what I play because somebody won't notice it. They may not go "he missed out those ghost notes", but they may suss out that something is wrong but they don't know what.
Quite true, and the opposite is also true. Others may not say anything at all when things are going well.

You're going to have to fake it or simplify things occasionally, becomes sometimes a song just kicks your ass a little. Just be musical about it, and keep shedding.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-15-2014, 04:12 PM
drummer-russ's Avatar
drummer-russ drummer-russ is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: St. Peters Mo
Posts: 1,176
Default Re: Some advice needed re: accuracy of songs

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrice View Post
Sorry, I don't have time right now to answer the OP's question.

But I totally disagree that the drummer (he mentioned)'s performance "should tell you that this guy is probably not the right teacher for you".

No matter how he fits into a band. Or - according to someone else's opinion - does not fit into a band: he might still be a great teacher! Obviously there is something the OP likes about the guy's drumming, which is why he wanted to book a few lessons with him.

I have experienced guys who are fabulous drummers, but fairly useless as teachers. And I have also experienced guys who are fabulous teachers, but whose playing in a band setting I do not like at all.

Just my 2 cents… Peace.

Patrice
Not to say this person would or could not be a good teacher. But that is a basic thing I would like to have alignment with my teacher on. Now if he supports the OP desire to play the songs as close to original as capable, then it could work.
__________________
Playing live in front of appreciative audience is the 2nd best thing in the world!
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:10 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com