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  #1  
Old 06-21-2013, 07:03 AM
Benfordrum Benfordrum is offline
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Default Great forum but one issue

Hey guys, so I love this forum. Very open communitiy and i really appreciate it. Ive just been noticing one thing.. Alot of us are hung up about the really pointless aspects of drums..

We ask questions about the best sticks and shoes for a certain genre.
We talk about the durability of a cymbal and if it sounds good
We talk about the splintering of a drumhoop affecting the 1400th overtone of a tom
We talk about the difference of physics between a 30 degree bearing edge vs a 45 degree bearing edge and how it affects the rebound of your stick and stick path

These things are cool.. BUT i've came to the inherent realization that aside from maybe technique specifics, what the really important thing is musicality, musicianship etc. By musicianship i dont mean slapping on triggers and playing 4000 bpm (no offense to any of you out there) i mean the self dedication and maturation required to make music on the instrument.. I know guys who blow my mind on a 150 dollar kit with plastic heads, and create pieces, melodies, emotional statements etc. with just one drum.

What i'm getting at is that maybe there should be a musicianship subsection to the forum? Not a thing where we post transcriptions of a philly joe solo or neal peart solo or something, but where we can all openly talk about our own musical aspirations and forthcomings, our progress and realizations about musicians.

A big step in the forum to help as a musical resource is to not inhibit the presence and growth of just DRUMMERS who know the ins and outs of every stick and cymbal and technique etc, but to MUSICIANS who can make music, who want to make music and grow personally as musicians on the instrument. It would be so awesome to have a section where we can all share our opinions on music, on personal growth and development, on realizations, on emotional substance in our playing etc. I think that would be an amazing utilization of this sight. These things can be generalized to the "your playing section" or "technique" or even this subsection. But maybe a part devoted strictly to musicality would be great and a way to develop all of us as musicians even more.

Just rambling but tell me what you guys think
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  #2  
Old 06-21-2013, 07:25 AM
Robthedrummer Robthedrummer is offline
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Default Re: Great forum but one issue

Well this is a forum after all, and the beauty of a forum is that you can post things that you may want to discuss like said subject. So, this is your thread. Drums are a musical instrument after all, and I get that. You must understand that forums contain folks of all backgrounds and levels. I think sticks/throne height/pedal adjustment can be very important for a lot of drummers. Sometimes you'll read something that will make you go "huh, never really thought about that."

Anyways, on musicality, what specifically would you like to discuss? Well, I'm very big on "listening" as trivial as it may sound. It's probably the most important aspect of my personal tool bag for drumming as it makes you play with the band, not on the band. Also it makes you play more dynamically, and you can really have nuance and subtlety that really brings out a lot in the music.
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  #3  
Old 06-21-2013, 09:16 AM
brentcn brentcn is online now
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Default Re: Great forum but one issue

Considering there's a concurrent thread where drummers are advising other drummers that it's perfectly acceptable to eschew all things theory related, don't expect this "musical approach to the instrument" idea to get much traction...

But here's a nugget of wisdom:

Once you've figured out how to play the drums well, and you have time to really dig into some of the crazier elements, it's tough to find moments in which you can apply the fruits of your efforts. So...

If you're going to pull out that sweet, "check this &%*$ out" fill or lick, there's really only a few ways to avoid being accused of drummer-itis:

1. The fill occurs in the space/silence before or between ensemble figures (a set up).

2. The fill occurs while everyone else is simply playing whole notes, providing the bed on which to jump, so to speak.

3. One or more band members are playing matching awesomeness at the same time as you.

Everything else is gratuitous, or meant for listeners with meager knowledge of music.
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  #4  
Old 06-21-2013, 10:49 AM
Boomka Boomka is offline
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Default Re: Great forum but one issue

I'd only add one rule to that list. I call it the "Vinnie Rule".

4. You somehow manage to inject a mind-bending lick into the verse of a pop tune and make it work.

Unfortunately, only Vinnie can consistently apply this rule.

On a general note, I like the idea behind this thread. I share some of brentcn's skepticism, but there's no reason we can't carry on regardless of whatever friction might arise. I think the thread on music theory has devolved because of semantic differences over the word "necessary". Once you get past that, it seems that just about everyone agrees that more knowledge is better.

I don't know about a whole new section, but it would be great if more threads were started that dealt with musical questions that aren't strictly technique related. I.e. rather than the HOW, more talk about the WHAT, WHEN and WHY.
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  #5  
Old 06-21-2013, 11:04 AM
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Bad Tempered Clavier Bad Tempered Clavier is offline
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Default Re: Great forum but one issue

Whereas I take the overall point about Music - to be fair, there are plenty of generic music sites for people to chat on and whenever I want to talk about Music per se I usually talk to the other members of the bands I'm in. None of them give a toss what heads I use on my toms or how to get a good rebound from the bass drum batter etc. For answers to questions of such drumming minutiae - come to Drummerworld.
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  #6  
Old 06-21-2013, 02:26 PM
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Default Re: Great forum but one issue

Where else am I going to learn about Mapex Saturns??
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  #7  
Old 06-21-2013, 02:40 PM
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Default Re: Great forum but one issue

The forum can be anything you want it to be. You could be the guy to spearhead a fresh new direction for threads. It's a good idea, to elevate the conversation to the ultimate goal, musicality. Now that you cooked up the good idea, it's probably best if you further it by setting the example about what you had in mind. My suggestion is to take the lead and start the threads you want to see. You completely have that power.

Musicality is a tough subject to put into print, but that should not stop any efforts to try and wrangle it into a form we can all understand.

My 2 sheckles are that musicality is best done spontaneously from listening. So listening is really the key to that door. Sure you can be musical in a song that you play the same way night in and night out, but to me, the most musical moments happen without planning it. Kind of hard when you are a cover band and your arrangements are "frozen" into a form that work well every night. My trio is looser arrangement-wise compared to my 6 piece. It's easier to improvise on the fly with a trio than a 6 piece. For instance a basic shuffle tune, in my trio, the leader will dictate that instead of a regular shuffle he wants to do it in a flat tire shuffle. That changes things up, and allows for fresh ways of thinking.
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  #8  
Old 06-21-2013, 05:31 PM
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Default Re: Great forum but one issue

My gut feeling is that, as a subsection of the forum, a "musicality" section will get very little traffic here.

That being said, I'd definitely encourage the discussion of the topic, in whatever existing subsection seems appropriate.

Like others have said, musicality is a very difficult thing to put into words, sometimes, and I think that is one of the reasons an entire subsection wouldn't fly. That, and the fact that so many drummers are gear and technique heads! lol
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  #9  
Old 06-21-2013, 05:47 PM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
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Default Re: Great forum but one issue

It has always bugged me a little bit that there is a technique section, and a gear section, but no music/musicianship section, but I don't think it matters. People just post whatever they feel like in any section, and most of them don't have a lot to say about music, anyway. Regardless, it's just a hard subject to talk about meaningfully, which is not helped by the kind-of-sucky internet forum format. So we talk about what we can talk about, which is kind of obvious stuff, and it's fine.
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  #10  
Old 06-21-2013, 06:17 PM
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bermuda bermuda is offline
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Default Re: Great forum but one issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
People just post whatever they feel like in any section, and most of them don't have a lot to say about music, anyway.
True, the subject does come up when people wish to discuss it, although it seldom seems to be a focus.

The beauty of a forum like this is that almost any drum-related subject you can imagine falls into the specified categories, and if they don't, General Discussion is often a good place for it. If it's not drum/music-related at all, there's even a place for that - the Off Topic Lounge (barring politics and religion, which are standard heated topics that are prohibited by many forums, except for the political and religious forums where they prohibit talking about drums!)

To the OP, post a musicality comment or question in the Discussion section and see what happens!

Bermuda
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  #11  
Old 06-21-2013, 06:30 PM
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Default Re: Great forum but one issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
To the OP, post a musicality comment or question in the Discussion section and see what happens!

Bermuda
This is the best way to interject more of what your want to discuss. Guys like John, Larry and Andy will blow your mind with the amout of knowledge they possess. Post the question, I guarantee you will get dozens of thoughtful responses that will satisfy any need you have to discuss musicianship.
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  #12  
Old 06-21-2013, 06:46 PM
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Default Re: Great forum but one issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benfordrum View Post
Ive just been noticing one thing.. Alot of us are hung up about the really pointless aspects of drums..

We ask questions about the best sticks and shoes for a certain genre.
We talk about the durability of a cymbal and if it sounds good
etc
This point comes up here and there. And my response is we discuss gear here a lot because it's easy to discuss.

If we all met for coffee every morning, or a drink a the pub every evening, I bet conversations would be far more wide ranging than gear because we could use hand motions, or pull out a pair of sticks and pad, or play examples to further the conversation. But not being in person, we are limited to plain text, or proving links to something someone has previous uploaded. Gear, on the other hand, is just easy to discuss in plain text format.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benfordrum View Post

What i'm getting at is that maybe there should be a musicianship subsection to the forum? Not a thing where we post transcriptions of a philly joe solo or neal peart solo or something, but where we can all openly talk about our own musical aspirations and forthcomings, our progress and realizations about musicians.
Per the front page of the forums, it says:
Quote:
General discussion forum for all drum related topics. Use this forum to exchange ideas and information with your fellow drummers.
I'd say this forum already exists. There are many, many threads that discuss these concepts. Feel free to contribute and or start more threads on these topis anytime!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benfordrum View Post
It would be so awesome to have a section where we can all share our opinions on music, on personal growth and development, on realizations, on emotional substance in our playing etc. I think that would be an amazing utilization of this sight. These things can be generalized to the "your playing section" or "technique" or even this subsection. But maybe a part devoted strictly to musicality would be great and a way to develop all of us as musicians even more.
This is where it gets a bit tricky though. Yes, there are working professional drummers posting here. There are some people posting here who really push themselves everyday to be a better drummer, and it shows in their playing.

But as I've often said, I learned in working in drum shops for years and years, the majority of people who buy drum kits do not have big aspirations. Many people just play at home after work to let off steam. Some have a good Monday through Friday job, and have a regular gig on the weekend, and that's all they want. Some of us have been there, done that, got the T-shirt, and moved on to other aspects of life. And it's all cool. In other words, not everyone is going to have much to say on personal growth and development.

And on another hand, opinions on music and personal growth are tied to personal opinions. Some want to be great light jazz players, other aspire to play double bass in extreme metal bands. Again, it's all good, but it doesn't always lend itself to having enough common ground for lengthy discussions. What is a display of great musicality on your metal gig might not be appropriate for your piano trio gig, and vise versa.

Opinions on music is great, but people do get opinionated and sadly, this had often taken some wrong turns. It's difficult to discuss Neil Peart, Ringo, Steward Copland or Kenny G (ha) without someone getting offended, a fight breaking out and often results in someone getting banned. That is sad.

All that said, there have been some great awesome threads on music and musicality over the last few years. I'm always up for more.
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  #13  
Old 06-21-2013, 06:48 PM
New Tricks New Tricks is offline
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Default Re: Great forum but one issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benfordrum View Post
Just rambling but tell me what you guys think

I agree.........................You are rambling :)



On forums like this you will have a wide range of interests. Most of the topics are just blah blah blah to me, especially talk about famous drummers, but it is obviously of interest to a lot of people so I just skim it and move on.
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  #14  
Old 06-21-2013, 09:49 PM
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Default Re: Great forum but one issue

Get a group of painters (artists) together and they usually discuss things like "where can I
buy gesso on sale". It's all good. I learn things here all the time I never thought about.
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  #15  
Old 06-21-2013, 11:18 PM
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Anon La Ply Anon La Ply is offline
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Default Re: Great forum but one issue

My first thought was that most DW members are men - the stereotype is that men prefer to talk about "stuff", nothing too personal.

Also, I think there is a lot of legitimate wariness amongst creative people of talking out their ideas. Writers are famous for being protective of their ideas so they gather power internally before being expelled in the creative process, rather than leaching away some of that power in conversation. I think the principle applies to some extent across the arts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brentcn View Post
If you're going to pull out that sweet, "check this &%*$ out" fill or lick, there's really only a few ways to avoid being accused of drummer-itis:

1. The fill occurs in the space/silence before or between ensemble figures (a set up).

2. The fill occurs while everyone else is simply playing whole notes, providing the bed on which to jump, so to speak.

3. One or more band members are playing matching awesomeness at the same time as you.

Everything else is gratuitous, or meant for listeners with meager knowledge of music.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boomka View Post
4. You somehow manage to inject a mind-bending lick into the verse of a pop tune and make it work.
5. Repeat the lick and turn it into a motif.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boomka View Post
I don't know about a whole new section, but it would be great if more threads were started that dealt with musical questions that aren't strictly technique related. I.e. rather than the HOW, more talk about the WHAT, WHEN and WHY.
+1 Well said, as usual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IDDrummer View Post
My gut feeling is that, as a subsection of the forum, a "musicality" section will get very little traffic here.
+1 Well said, as usual.

You have all done very well and if you keep it up you can have an early mark this afternoon :)
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Old 06-21-2013, 11:35 PM
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Default Re: Great forum but one issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post

Per the front page of the forums, it says:


I'd say this forum already exists. There are many, many threads that discuss these concepts. Feel free to contribute and or start more threads on these topics anytime!
That's exactly what I was thinking. General Discussion is where this happens, he just hasn't been here long enough to realize that. Then again, maybe he has and he is still left wanting more.?.?
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Old 06-22-2013, 05:15 AM
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Default Re: Great forum but one issue

Pffffft!!!

There is just no way the cabalistic cliques that control DW with fists of iron and metronomic rigour (or rigor if you spell funny) would ever allow a musicality section.

Never gonna happen.

Never!








(The above was intended as a joke, right?)
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  #18  
Old 06-22-2013, 08:40 AM
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Default Re: Great forum but one issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benfordrum View Post
...but to MUSICIANS who can make music, who want to make music and grow personally as musicians on the instrument.
It's a drumming forum man, d-r-u-m-s, the "Off Topic Lounge" takes care of anything not related to drums & drumming, so there's your "subsection" on this forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
My first thought was that most DW members are men - the stereotype is that men prefer to talk about "stuff", nothing too personal.
I wanna talk about sticks, pedals, head combos, hardware, tuning, drum hoops, cymbals & drum dial... I say "stuff it" to anything else, we all know that this IS what's important to chat around here, you among everybody here should know, you're such a gear head.
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Old 06-22-2013, 09:09 PM
Benfordrum Benfordrum is offline
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Default Re: Great forum but one issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by drumaphobic lurker View Post
It's a drumming forum man, d-r-u-m-s, the "Off Topic Lounge" takes care of anything not related to drums & drumming, so there's your "subsection" on this forum.



I wanna talk about sticks, pedals, head combos, hardware, tuning, drum hoops, cymbals & drum dial... I say "stuff it" to anything else, we all know that this IS what's important to chat around here, you among everybody here should know, you're such a gear head.

I agree with the majority of everyone's posts! I love DW and won't leave any time soon. But we look at DW as a forum for drummers. Wouldn't it be better to look at it as a forum of musicians who play drums? I once had a teacher in school say oh you're a drummer. And i came back with no, I'm a musician. Since then he's given me more material and time and has helped me develop my skills as a musician, not just a kid who hits stuff. Maybe I'm making stretches haha but I hope a few of you get what I'm saying to the tee
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Old 06-23-2013, 07:52 AM
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Default Re: Great forum but one issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benfordrum View Post
I agree with the majority of everyone's posts! I love DW and won't leave any time soon. But we look at DW as a forum for drummers. Wouldn't it be better to look at it as a forum of musicians who play drums? I once had a teacher in school say oh you're a drummer. And i came back with no, I'm a musician. Since then he's given me more material and time and has helped me develop my skills as a musician, not just a kid who hits stuff. Maybe I'm making stretches haha but I hope a few of you get what I'm saying to the tee
I never had any issues with being called a drummer, but what I won't stand for is being called the sound guy. ;)

Dennis
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Old 06-23-2013, 03:16 PM
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Anon La Ply Anon La Ply is offline
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Default Re: Great forum but one issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by drumaphobic lurker View Post
you're such a gear head.
Oh, you can read me like a book!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benfordrum View Post
But we look at DW as a forum for drummers. Wouldn't it be better to look at it as a forum of musicians who play drums?
What really is the difference?

I think it would be interesting for us to take a drumming performance and analyse what makes it tick - look at the reasons why the player might have made the musical choices he or she did. Look at the pluses and minus, all in a civilised, mellow way.
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