shuffle is hard...

OK then. Tempo it is. And swing factor. That's easy enough lol.
 
That song is a little fast for a one handed full on shuffle.

When I used to play along with the record it was quarter note city. Technically, the tune bounces but I can see what J's saying. As with fast bop, once the tempo reaches a certain point the notes straighten out.

Still, great link and I'm jealous of Henri. At first glance it looked like Roger Daltrey on drums :)
 
When I used to play along with the record it was quarter note city...

Nothing wrong to hang around in quarter note city, it's an alternative to shuffle city as Mo said earlier in the thread, no matter how fast and the degree of swing you gonna induce in a song, providing it drives the song, you've covered the essential... and more, as proven by Jean Paul Gaster in this clip, he mixes full shuffle and quarter note pulse and permute from both cities, but what a drive... I love that song ... the outro is not bad either :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91-cIwjyyn4
 
I think that the 140 is a low limit for one hand shuffles.

See, here's where the confusion, for me, starts. I think that 140 is just about reaching the high limit for comfortably playing the shuffle beat and keeping the shuffling, swinging feel. Above that and you're approaching jump blues territory, the two-beat feel. "Face the Face" is that tempo. "Got My Mojo Working" is that tempo.

I guess this is all about semantics, isn't it?
 
See, here's where the confusion, for me, starts. I think that 140 is just about reaching the high limit for comfortably playing the shuffle beat and keeping the shuffling, swinging feel. Above that and you're approaching jump blues territory, the two-beat feel. "Face the Face" is that tempo. "Got My Mojo Working" is that tempo.

I guess this is all about semantics, isn't it?

Semantics, yes. Mojo isn't even a shuffle it's either a straight 2/4 or a straight train beat, at least that's how Muddy does it, right? To me a shuffle is any song that uses the shuffle pattern on something, be it snare, kick, hi hat or ride, and any combinations of those, front to back. I even consider a song a shuffle if the bass player is holding the shuffle pattern down while the drummer plays unison quarters on the kick and ride and halves on the snare. If it's got a nonstop shuffle feel, it's a shuffle in my mind no matter what the tempo it is or who holds the shuffle pattern down. It's not really that well defined and open to a lot of interpretation.
 
Semantics, yes. Mojo isn't even a shuffle it's either a straight 2/4 or a straight train beat, at least that's how Muddy does it, right? To me a shuffle is any song that uses the shuffle pattern on something, be it snare, kick, hi hat or ride, and any combinations of those, front to back. I even consider a song a shuffle if the bass player is holding the shuffle pattern down while the drummer plays unison quarters on the kick and ride and halves on the snare. If it's got a nonstop shuffle feel, it's a shuffle in my mind no matter what the tempo it is or who holds the shuffle pattern down. It's not really that well defined and open to a lot of interpretation.

Well, you're a lot more liberal in that regard than I am, Larry. I'll write that off to your youthful enthusiasm.
 
Please explain how you figure this is a shuffle?

No, it's not a shuffle at all... at best it's kinda half time shuffle.

But I think mansuper was referring to the swing pattern of the right hand she's playing there as a movement/motion approach, I could be wrong, but I think that why he/she uploaded that clip.
 
Santeria sounds like a cut-time shuffle to me. It's Rosanna minus the ghost notes and a touch faster. The 16ths are in the cracks between swung and straight, but otherwise I'm surprised at the responses here.
 
In terms of HH technique, the stuff I'm struggling with, to me:

shuffle = cut-time shuffle = half-time shuffle = R&B/hip-hop = blues = swung 16th = swung 8th = .....

Apparently they are all different styles/genres.

Probably "shuffle" was a bad choice of word for the title? Any better suggestion?

p.s. Thanks for many thoughtful discussions.

p.p.s. I was the OP.

p.p.p.s. I hate to see people can play it so relax with a smile.
 
Santeria is definitely a half-time shuffle - like 8mile said - it's more or less Rosanna- sped up. Maybe some people don't think it's a shuffle because the music itself is not playing in swing time. The drumbeat itself is playing a shuffle superimposed over the music playing 4/4 time. You don't hear that a whole lot.

There are almost as many shuffle feels as there are rock feels and they are in all genres of music. Its important to get a grasp of them.

For me, my shuffle didn't get good until I went through Progressive Independence: Jazz book by Ron Spagnardi. For me, it's really gave me a better understanding of the swing feel and sank into my shuffle playing. Huge difference.

To be totally honest - if I DIDN'T know the shuffle, I don't think I would be working much at all. I am kind of surprised that a lot of drummers don't do these much. I guess if all you listen too is speed dugga dugga dugga metal all the time, you wouldnt hear the shuffle at all.

One way too get the feel of it is listen to music that has it. I listen to a lot of genres of music (yes including speed metal) and the shuffle is in almost all of it I listen too.
 
To be totally honest - if I DIDN'T know the shuffle, I don't think I would be working much at all. I am kind of surprised that a lot of drummers don't do these much.

I don't think it's as much about not knowing the shuffle, as it is about being able to perfect your feel while playing it, and then translating that same feel to higher tempos. It isn't hard for me, personally, to really feel that shuffle chugging along. And I could feel it well before I recognized the terminology that expressed it, but playing it fast and clean has always been somewhat of a challenge for me...just need more practice.
 
I don't think it's as much about not knowing the shuffle, as it is about being able to perfect your feel while playing it, and then translating that same feel to higher tempos. It isn't hard for me, personally, to really feel that shuffle chugging along. And I could feel it well before I recognized the terminology that expressed it, but playing it fast and clean has always been somewhat of a challenge for me...just need more practice.

Slow it down and play it clean. If the particular shuffle you are playing has ghost notes in it, play those clean as well. Really clean and at the proper volume. I really had to do that with "Fool In the Rain" by Led Zepplin. All the ghost notes have to be precise in order to get that greasy feel. Play the feel slow to you have it DOWN. Speed it up.

It's been said a billion times, but if you can't play it clean slow, it will not sound clean sped up because your muscle memory doesn't have a clue what you are doing when you speed it up.

Guys who play well - it's no accident - it's very set-out. They work it out to make sure it's down so they can do it in the dark while eating a sandwich. I'm kidding but Im not. Nobody can expect to learn that coordination the first time you set out to do it. The shuffle can be a complicated feel to master. And really, the most important thing about it is the feel - how do you teach feel? Well first get the mechanics of it - get it in your body - then worry about the grease factor a little later. Later, Listen to other guys doing it and try to mimic it. Play it with the guys - tweek it. It's a process.

It's like all these guys that want to go dugga dugga dugga dugga with their bass drums at 270bpm. You can't just sit down and do it. Never. You have to go through the process.
 
Santeria is definitely a half-time shuffle - like 8mile said - it's more or less Rosanna- sped up. Maybe some people don't think it's a shuffle because the music itself is not playing in swing time. The drumbeat itself is playing a shuffle superimposed over the music playing 4/4 time. You don't hear that a whole lot.

There are almost as many shuffle feels as there are rock feels and they are in all genres of music. Its important to get a grasp of them.

For me, my shuffle didn't get good until I went through Progressive Independence: Jazz book by Ron Spagnardi. For me, it's really gave me a better understanding of the swing feel and sank into my shuffle playing. Huge difference.

To be totally honest - if I DIDN'T know the shuffle, I don't think I would be working much at all. I am kind of surprised that a lot of drummers don't do these much. I guess if all you listen too is speed dugga dugga dugga metal all the time, you wouldnt hear the shuffle at all.

One way too get the feel of it is listen to music that has it. I listen to a lot of genres of music (yes including speed metal) and the shuffle is in almost all of it I listen too.

Good points. As wikipedia points out:
In the swing era, swing meant accented triplets (shuffle rhythm), suitable for dancing. With the development of bebop and later jazz styles independent of dancing, the term was used for far more general timings.

Aren't we really just talking about variations on a syncopated rhythm, present in lots of music (but not straight 4/4 rock)? The half-time and Purdy variations just add the ghost notes in interesting places to fill out the triplet, no?
 
The half-time and Purdy variations just add the ghost notes in interesting places to fill out the triplet, no?

pretty much.......and they also add the back beat to beat 3 instead of the natural shuffle 2 & 4 which puts it into half time

.......side note Santeria is definitely a shuffle
 
I see J's point about "Face the Face" being more of a jump blues type of song. It is fast, a straight quarter note pattern on a sloshy hat would have fit that song just fine. Simon really goes the extra mile and makes it a shuffle pattern. Which changes the song to a shuffle, even though it's not your traditional shuffle, like from the 40's and 50's. Just like Santiera...that's a shuffle to me all the way. It's not a traditional shuffle from Chess Records, but it's still a shuffle.
 
There is a fair about of ... "room" ... how the shuffle is played, I think. I don't know quite how to explain it, but Jeff Hamilton really "whips" it and, to my humble ears, makes the swing quite effective. Effective meaning bloody catchy (which is the point). I'm thinking the common musical notations don't quite translate the feel.

The LH requirements, as discussed earlier in the thread, are high when getting in to the faster tempos. A decent example of this is Joe Ascione with Joey D (Joe is in Buddy territory). Quiet, smooth, and swinging. ;-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=957Yr3TdJXg

Enjoy!
radman
 
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