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  #41  
Old 10-05-2010, 03:21 AM
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Default Re: Rock and roll Led Zeppelin (help needed)

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Originally Posted by Fox622003 View Post
It's not very confusing, really. Three/Eight = Three eighth notes in that bar; right?
Personally, I've never seen pickups given their own time signature.
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  #42  
Old 10-05-2010, 03:21 AM
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I take issue because I'm sick to death of this attitude, where he's convinced himself that it's ok to flame forum members.....all hidden under the guise of "honesty". Honesty my arse, it's old fashioned bloody rudeness.....pure and simple. It happens far too often and I've heard afrom a couple of newbies that have been left belittled and bewildered at his "honest approach". Experience is here to help, not put down.
This is false. I have never put down a new player. There was a long discussion some months ago, with an user called "cleith" where I was particularly brutal with my critique, he has been playing drums for more than I have, so that hardly qualifies as a newbie, right? I NEVER put down newbies, unless they come on with an attitude, and I don't remember putting down any new player on this forum.
I am sure you have read most of my recent posts on new players, let's revisit an excerpt from one of them:

"Good, good. I like your outlook, and it's a shame, as you say, that you quit in the first place.
I SUCKED when I started playing drums, I think only once I felt like you did, after that I started getting better. But there is nothing I appreciate more than how harsh musically talented people were on me, they were absolutely right, and because of all the criticism, not only did I want to get better, but following their advice, I learned many things. It's a must that you go to a teacher, he will be able to guide you, and you will also have the opportunity to ask him about your specific..."

Damn! I'm such an arrogant, rude bastard on new guys!
Now, if you're posting advice, I do not assume you're an extremely advanced player, but you must at least have been playing for a while, and can handle other people's negative opinions, and that's exactly what I did with Dairyman.
The truth is that if everyone knew how to read and write music at least at the level I do, we wouldn't even have this problem, because everyone would be able to communicate their musical ideas perfectly (the point I was trying to make). I guess that's a bad thing, right?
POG, from your post, you make it look as if I was a horrible influence on the forums, and that my advice is totally counterproductive, when in fact, I take quite a lot of time to make sure my posts are as informative and as true to exactly what's going on in my mind about what I see.
In fact, I want to see Dairyman or you try to understand some of the simplest Gavin Harrison fills, and explain them with your methods, perhaps, since my post wasn't enough, that'll make you realize how important my advice was, and why Dairyman's method is not the best way to teach.
I'm not saying you are bad players or anything. In fact, I don't remember seeing either of you play. But there's just a limit to learning everything by ear/knowing little about the technical aspects of music. And if you advice people to START the instrument from these alternative methods, what kind of foundation are they setting up? I never told anyone to quit the instrument. but I may be particularly hard and insistent on certain aspects because they *are* particularly wrong and important.


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  #43  
Old 10-05-2010, 03:23 AM
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Default Re: Rock and roll Led Zeppelin (help needed)

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Personally, I've never seen pickups given their own time signature.
Who says it's a pickup? You? Why can't it be a bar of 3/8? It's pretty simple, too.


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  #44  
Old 10-05-2010, 03:40 AM
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Default Re: Rock and roll Led Zeppelin (help needed)

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Who says it's a pickup? You? Why can't it be a bar of 3/8? It's pretty simple, too.
Since pickups are very common, and single odd measures at the beginning of pieces otherwise entirely in 4/4 are not common at all, I would conclude that they are pickups.
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  #45  
Old 10-05-2010, 04:10 AM
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Default Re: Rock and roll Led Zeppelin (help needed)

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Since pickups are very common, and single odd measures at the beginning of pieces otherwise entirely in 4/4 are not common at all, I would conclude that they are pickups.
I don't think "pickup" is even a proper musical term. I think something similar exists, but I don't know much about it, and I don't really need to, when I can notate it in a clear manner using the appropiate time signature.
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  #46  
Old 10-05-2010, 04:17 AM
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Default Re: Rock and roll Led Zeppelin (help needed)

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Who says it's a pickup? You? Why can't it be a bar of 3/8? It's pretty simple, too.


Fox.
Yes, it's a pickup. And of course pickup is an accepted musical term.

The first measure of "Rock and Roll" is not in 3/8. It's in 4/4.

If I were to write the drum intro out I'd have the first measure of the chart in the same meter as the rest of the song. That measure would contain a half rest, an eighth rest and the three pickup notes.

It's the playing of the snare drum on the downbeat that makes that intro what it is.Very clever I think. He really was something, old Bonzo, wasn't he?

But starting the written analysis with a measure of 3/8 just confuses the issue. Yes it may be technically correct but that doesn't mean that it's a corect analysis, not by a long shot. The song, you see, is in 4/4 time.

Edit: And, yes, that drum intro is exactly like the guitar intro to "Johnny B. Good."

One-and-two-and-three-dah-dah-dah...
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  #47  
Old 10-05-2010, 04:23 AM
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Default Re: Rock and roll Led Zeppelin (help needed)

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wow !!! itīs almost as if i never posted this http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/s...5&postcount=10

*tap-*tap - is this thing on ?

tough room.
Oops, sorry UFF. I must have missed it. I miss a lot these days ... I'm sure brain cells start switching off with age ...
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  #48  
Old 10-05-2010, 04:27 AM
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Default Re: Rock and roll Led Zeppelin (help needed)

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Yes, it's a pickup. And of course pickup is an accepted musical term.

The first measure of "Rock and Roll" is not in 3/8. It's in 4/4.

If I were to write the drum intro out I'd have the first measure of the chart in the same meter as the rest of the song. That measure would contain a half rest, an eighth rest and the three pickup notes.

It's the playing of the snare drum on the downbeat that makes that intro what it is.Very clever I think. He really was something, old Bonzo, wasn't he?

But starting the written analysis with a measure of 3/8 just confuses the issue. Yes it may be technically correct but that doesn't mean that it's a corect analysis, not by a long shot. The song, you see, is in 4/4 time.

Edit: And, yes, that drum intro is exactly like the guitar intro to "Johnny B. Good."

One-and-two-and-three-dah-dah-dah...
Oh man, he chose to write it as 3/8, he sucks! Come on, find a better excuse to put me down.


Fox.
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  #49  
Old 10-05-2010, 04:32 AM
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Default Re: Rock and roll Led Zeppelin (help needed)

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Oh man, he chose to write it as 3/8, he sucks! Come on, find a better excuse to put me down.


Fox.
No, I'm not saying that you suck. I'd never say that anyone sucks, not here. And I don't mean to put you down. You're just wrong, that's all.

The first three notes of that intro are the last three eighth notes of a measure of 4/4.
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  #50  
Old 10-05-2010, 04:35 AM
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Default Re: Rock and roll Led Zeppelin (help needed)

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Come on, find a better excuse to put me down.
Okay :)

Instead of beating poor old dairyairman up for what was a correct statement, you could have just posted the transcript. That way Grace would have a choice, depending on her reading chops.

You've said in the past that you valued the harsh criticism you received coming up and I suspect you figure that your "tough love" will help others in the same way. Trouble is, some respond to harshness with the desired "I'll show you, ya sod" but others are simply turned off by it. That's why piano teachers stopped rapping their students over the knuckles for bum notes ... there are more effective ways of getting a message across than inducing flight or flight syndrome in people ...
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  #51  
Old 10-05-2010, 04:48 AM
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Default Re: Rock and roll Led Zeppelin (help needed)

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I don't think "pickup" is even a proper musical term. I think something similar exists, but I don't know much about it, and I don't really need to, when I can notate it in a clear manner using the appropiate time signature.
No two ways about it, opening a 4/4 piece with a bar of 3/8 and having all the stems pointing downward is bad form. What about the count in?
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  #52  
Old 10-05-2010, 04:51 AM
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Default Re: Rock and roll Led Zeppelin (help needed)

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No two ways about it, opening a 4/4 piece with a bar of 3/8 and having all the stems pointing downward is bad form. What about the count in? Are clicking 4 or a swift 3?
I don't think you'd need a count in if the band knows what's what. Chuck Berry, he didn't count in "Johnny B. Good," he just started playing it and the band always knew when to come in. Everyone knows that intro, it's classic. The only thing that makes this case different is that it's played on the hi-hat and snare drum.

Really, this is very easy stuff.
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  #53  
Old 10-05-2010, 05:08 AM
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Default Re: Rock and roll Led Zeppelin (help needed)

All i'll add is having read off more lead sheets at gigs in a different musical setting than I can even remember a count of at this point it's a "pick up" into the bar of 4/4 as Todd and Jay just covered. With a 1/8th rest written on the beat of 3 in front of the 3 1/8th notes to follow starting on the + of 3 to be exact. Count in in 4/4 with rested beats accounted for before the 3 beats are played.
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  #54  
Old 10-05-2010, 05:09 AM
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Default Re: Rock and roll Led Zeppelin (help needed)

Well, it can't be so easy given some of the issues raised in the thread. The intro to rock and roll is one of those bits of playing that gets lots of listeners confused. It takes some listening to work out where the 1 is. The intro to Sex on Fire by Kings of Leon is another more recent example. Count ins are essential in getting it right, at least when learning. We're not all heroes like you and Fox ;)
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  #55  
Old 10-05-2010, 05:22 AM
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Default Re: Rock and roll Led Zeppelin (help needed)

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Well, it can't be so easy given some of the issues raised in the thread. The intro to rock and roll is one of those bits of playing that gets lots of listeners confused. It takes some listening to work out where the 1 is. The intro to Sex on Fire by Kings of Leon is another more recent example. Count ins are essential in getting it right, at least when learning. We're not all heroes like you and Fox ;)
Don't know who you are taking a shot at but I was just adding my 2 cents on hearing it start on the + of the beat of 3 leading into a bar of 4. There's lots of examples out there of recorded tunes starting without a audible count in that can and do throw off both listeners and many drummers for a loop....this is one of the most famous ones out there.
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  #56  
Old 10-05-2010, 05:29 AM
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Default Re: Rock and roll Led Zeppelin (help needed)

Well, as I said, I don't really get this discussion thing about it being a pickup. It's obviously a good alternative, in fact, if I had to play it, I'd play the first bar as 2/4, with the first note being an unnaccented 8th on the hats, so I can synch it easily to a metronome, but there's a difference in how you play it, and what it is, and there's no rests in the song, the first note is that snare, and the literal way to transcribe it is how I did it. It's not really important if it's better for you to think of it as a pick up, or write all the rests in 4/4. 3/8 as a starting point worked perfectly for me.
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  #57  
Old 10-05-2010, 05:30 AM
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Default Re: Rock and roll Led Zeppelin (help needed)

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Well, it can't be so easy given some of the issues raised in the thread.
Simple math tells us that there are thirty five eighth notes in the intro. Where are those three extra eighth notes? Those notes are the pickup, three eighth notes. It's a four-bar intro with a three eighth note pickup. Rhythmically it is exactly like the guitar intro to "Johnny B. Good," which everyone is familiar with.

If you heard a guitar player play Chuck Berry's intro to "Johnny B. Good" wouldn't you know exactly where to come in? Well, Bonzo played that intro on his hi-hat and snare drum.
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  #58  
Old 10-05-2010, 05:36 AM
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Default Re: Rock and roll Led Zeppelin (help needed)

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Well, as I said, I don't really get this discussion thing about it being a pickup. It's obviously a good alternative, in fact, if I had to play it, I'd play the first bar as 2/4, with the first note being an unnaccented 8th on the hats, so I can synch it easily to a metronome, but there's a difference in how you play it, and what it is, and there's no rests in the song, the first note is that snare, and the literal way to transcribe it is how I did it. It's not really important if it's better for you to think of it as a pick up, or write all the rests in 4/4. 3/8 as a starting point worked perfectly for me.
I hear what you're saying but I would reference it and teach it as a 3 beat pick into the entire part in 4/4. Certainly would help someone learning it that way or getting there ears using to hearing parts starting on and with off beats. Count out loud......1... 2... 3... +4+ go!
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  #59  
Old 10-05-2010, 05:37 AM
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No, I'm not saying that you suck. I'd never say that anyone sucks, not here. And I don't mean to put you down. You're just wrong, that's all.

The first three notes of that intro are the last three eighth notes of a measure of 4/4.
I am not wrong. I can only hear three notes there man. I can't hear the rests. Listen, I know EXACTLY what you're talking about, and that's just the way you like to think about it, as I stated previously, personally, to play this, I think of the first bar in 2/4, why didn't I write it like that? It's absolutely acceptable, and doesn't unnecessarily add half a bar. But the truth is the "pickup" is in 3/8, it's 3 eighth notes before the thing starts. I wrote it in 3/8 to separate it from the main part, it's something extra, 3 extra 8th notes. Do you see the logic here?


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Old 10-05-2010, 05:40 AM
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  #60  
Old 10-05-2010, 05:41 AM
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I hear what you're saying but I would reference it and teach it as a 3 beat pick into the entire part in 4/4. Certainly would help someone learning it that way or getting there ears using to hearing parts starting on and with off beats. Count out loud......1... 2... 3... +4+ go!
And that's perfect. I just wrote the thing, I didn't exactly teach it, I thought the OP might understand the thing like that, I don't really know about his/her playing ability.


Fox.
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  #61  
Old 10-05-2010, 05:46 AM
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I am not wrong. I can only hear three notes there man. I can't hear the rests. Listen, I know EXACTLY what you're talking about, and that's just the way you like to think about it, as I stated previously, personally, to play this, I think of the first bar in 2/4, why didn't I write it like that? It's absolutely acceptable, and doesn't unnecessarily add half a bar. But the truth is the "pickup" is in 3/8, it's 3 eighth notes before the thing starts. I wrote it in 3/8 to separate it from the main part, it's something extra, 3 extra 8th notes. Do you see the logic here?



Fox.

Yes but i'll chime in as a pro educator and clinician that noboby I know would tell a student it was a bar of 3/8 to get them started just so you know. They would teach them what off beats are all about or what starting a phrase on the + of the beat is all about since we're dealing with a tune here in 4/4 with a 3 1/8th note pick up. Makes sense?.... and i'm not trying to cause a stir just passing on the general concensus of stuff like this with most educators in the world and a certain teaching approach.
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Old 10-05-2010, 05:48 AM
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  #62  
Old 10-05-2010, 06:02 AM
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Default Re: Rock and roll Led Zeppelin (help needed)

OK. Sadly for my case, I'll have to agree with you both, Steamer and con struct, at least on that the most universal way of writing it would be doing it all in 4/4. However, it doesn't make my approach wrong, just unconventional. And as I explained, there are some facts to back up my decision of doing it like that. But I agree, your approach is not only more conventional, but easier to grasp for someone with an unclear knowledge of time signatures (like a beginner).


Cheers ^^
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  #63  
Old 10-05-2010, 06:12 AM
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OK. Sadly for my case, I'll have to agree with you both, Steamer and con struct, at least on that the most universal way of writing it would be doing it all in 4/4. However, it doesn't make my approach wrong, just unconventional. And as I explained, there are some facts to back up my decision of doing it like that. But I agree, your approach is not only more conventional, but easier to grasp for someone with an unclear knowledge of time signatures (like a beginner).


Cheers ^^
Bingo...yes it's just for teaching this kind of stuff from the get go with approaching it with a good fundamental understanding of notation and beat placement in mind for learning students. If you're using that type of stuff for a form of your own shorthand reference points no worries.

Just gets a little more complex trying to get others not so far along in music theory to understand the reasoning of introducing another 3 beat meter marking into a basic 4 beat/pulse pattern to follow.
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  #64  
Old 10-05-2010, 02:01 PM
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Default Re: Rock and roll Led Zeppelin (help needed)

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Simple math tells us that there are thirty five eighth notes in the intro. Where are those three extra eighth notes? Those notes are the pickup, three eighth notes. It's a four-bar intro with a three eighth note pickup.
Lol, yes Jay, I was the poster who pointed out the issue about the pick-up in the first place. I'm taking the credit on this one :D

When you listen to the intro do you hear it as clearly as you make it out to be?
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Old 10-05-2010, 06:01 PM
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Default Re: Rock and roll Led Zeppelin (help needed)

However you want to count it in, that's one bad drum intro...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AXQB1GisCM
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  #66  
Old 10-05-2010, 08:48 PM
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Lol, yes Jay, I was the poster who pointed out the issue about the pick-up in the first place. I'm taking the credit on this one :D

When you listen to the intro do you hear it as clearly as you make it out to be?
Sure, absolutely. Once it's understood you can't forget it. It's kind of too bad because once you understand it it'll never sound as cool as it did the first time you heard it.
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  #67  
Old 10-06-2010, 12:24 AM
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Default Re: Rock and roll Led Zeppelin (help needed)

It's amazing how, whether it's in 3/8 or 4/4, it sounds exactly the same! :-)
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Old 10-06-2010, 11:40 AM
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Nope, knowledge and facts are everything. Communication is just a human created layer of our lives that has its' limitations. It is just a conduit to EVERYTHING.
Wow. Pure ignorance.... a rare thing these days, even on the internet!

DOn't worry, I won't try to argue with YOU anymore.
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Old 10-06-2010, 12:47 PM
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OK, sure, it's a very tricky drum part *rolls eyes*
I was aggressive in my post because you obviously don't know enough to teach a part if you advice someone to sing some tune and assure them they'll land in time. Are we all crazy here? It's some simple succession of eighths! Guys...
"Sing that part in some song of Dream Theater that's in 5/8 twice to yourself, and you'll easily grasp the two groupings of 5 Gavin plays on that fill, I assure you!" Doesn't this kind of thing sound a little inexact to be teaching around? You should encourage newer players to learn to notate and read music well, not to veer off into some absolutely random way of getting a part. Hence, why I was annoyed at the advice, and why my post had the form it did.
If you think it's a good way to teach, it's a free forum, but I think it's absolutely inappropriate advice, and that learning proper music is something that allows us to convey our ideas better, and communicate properly and clearly with other musicians.
Singing isn't a proper way to communicate about music? Who knew?

Using an already known concept to lead someone to a related concept makes a lot of sense, to me at least. If I wanted to describe a dog to you though you'd never seen one, if you knew what a wolf was, I could start there. If singing the Johnny B. Good intro helps someone understand how that pick up works, then it's done its job. In the end, we're trying to make sequences of sounds, so why not use other known sounds as a jumping-off point?

That doesn't mean we should learn everything by ear, or everything by notation. They aren't mutually exclusive. The more different angles we can use (or present to a student) the more likely we'll be able to get the point across. Notation is always a "serving suggestion" and doesn't always give us indication about feel, genre, and/or phrasing - which are really very important elements of music. The guitar intro from JBG is in the genre/style that Rock N Roll is meant to pay homage to and just about everyone can sing it back to front and sideways. What a clever way to get the idea of how that drum fill should feel and sound.

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Old 10-06-2010, 12:57 PM
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Default Re: Rock and roll Led Zeppelin (help needed)

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Who says it's a pickup? You? Why can't it be a bar of 3/8? It's pretty simple, too.


Fox.
A lot of this is repetitive, but I wrote it before I read the whole thread.

First the interpretive reason: Because that's the genre. It follows the rhythmic phrase being played in the first 2 full bars of the part. The rhythm is syncopated and the phrase begins before the barline (i.e. on the & of 3). If you hear the phrase starting there, you'll get how the thing is supposed to lay in time. Bar lines are arbitrary divisions used to create visual uniformity, they don't always determine where we ought to conceive of a phrase beginning or ending. They tend to take all the rhythmic interest out of things if you do rely on them too much. In this case, I'd argue that it's important to feel that pick up as a syncopation against the pulse.

Here's why: That 3-eighth note pick up/syncopation is a very, very common figure in early jazz, blues, swing, bop, RnB and a whole host of African-based musics like early New Orleans rock 'n' roll. Believe me, you'll see it about 100 times a night if you're reading a big band pad. The pick up creates tension that leads the ear toward the downbeat on 1. You can think of it in 3/8 if it helps you understand what you need to play (that's the only important thing) but I don't think we really capture the feel that way. The feel is of a syncopated pick up that releases off the point of rest on beat three and launches us toward the next point of rest on beat 1 if we're being true to the history of the genre. Think of it as a breath in before breathing out on 1. That's what makes it swing.

Now, the (far more important) pragmatic reason: Because counting a band in in 3/8 when all but one bar is *felt* in 4/4 is a recipe for disaster. Hell, even the mention of odd signatures with an 8th-note pulse will raise the tension level a notch or two, even on a pro bandstand. The pulse of the tune is in 4/4 or 2/2 so why wouldn't we count/conceive of all rhythmic figures -- including the intro -- in the primary pulse we're playing? Moreover, melodic instruments (singists, guitars, brass, reeds, etc.) are used to seeing/hearing phrases that lead into/over the barline; they'll get it. It's the easiest way to understand and communicate it. Keep it simple, no need to make West Side Story out of a blues.

Imagine: Yeah guys, this one is really simple. It's a New Orleans rock and roll blues thing in the style of Little Richard and Chuck Berry. I lead it off with a drum fill that's a single bar of 3/8 followed by a time signature change into 4/4 for four bars. Though that's not really it because the rhythm is double-time against the chords so it's sort of a 24 bar blues or a half-time 12 bar 4/2 feel. Actually, scratch that. Why don't we just call it a bar of 3/8 followed by a bar of 5/8, then a bar of 3/8 and then 5/8 then 3/8 then 4/8 x 2 and then 4 bars of 2/8? You got that? I'll give you a bar for nothing; last man standing! 1..2..3..1..2..3...

Yowzers! I'd only do that if beer fines were in effect and I was short on cash.

Last edited by Boomka; 10-06-2010 at 03:04 PM.
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Old 10-06-2010, 02:07 PM
Boomka Boomka is offline
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Default Re: Rock and roll Led Zeppelin (help needed)

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All i'll add is having read off more lead sheets at gigs in a different musical setting than I can even remember a count of at this point it's a "pick up" into the bar of 4/4 as Todd and Jay just covered. With a 1/8th rest written on the beat of 3 in front of the 3 1/8th notes to follow starting on the + of 3 to be exact. Count in in 4/4 with rested beats accounted for before the 3 beats are played.
That's because bass players' brains freeze and drool tends to puddle on the floor when they're presented with 8th-note-rooted odd meters. It's a health and safety thing and better for all concerned.

And don't even think about trying to explain that stuff to a singist unless you have a lot of time to kill before your next call. ;)
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Old 10-06-2010, 09:26 PM
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Wow. Pure ignorance.... a rare thing these days, even on the internet!

DOn't worry, I won't try to argue with YOU anymore.
Oh look, it's some moron throwing the "ignorant" word around to try and sound intellectually superior. Nothing you've done so far would be considered "arguing" so I'm not sure what you're talking about. You've only taken the time to throw out stupid buzz words (ignorant) and catch phrases (communication is everything). Congratulations, you've only proved that you're too lazy or stupid to make a good point.
Good day kid.
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Old 10-07-2010, 12:33 PM
irishthump irishthump is offline
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Oh look, it's some moron throwing the "ignorant" word around to try and sound intellectually superior. Nothing you've done so far would be considered "arguing" so I'm not sure what you're talking about. You've only taken the time to throw out stupid buzz words (ignorant) and catch phrases (communication is everything). Congratulations, you've only proved that you're too lazy or stupid to make a good point.
Good day kid.
I thought I made my point quite clear.... Oh, that's right I used a "catch phrase".

All joking aside, knowledge and facts are'nt worth a damn if you can't get them across in a civil manner.

BTW - how is "ignorant" a buzzword? If I wanted to use a buzzword to describe my opinion on your attitude I say "socially dyslexic".

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Perhaps this rant is too much for a drum thread, but since a few decided to take the couple joking sentences I typed to lighten up the Fox situation instead of talking about Bonham's different ways of playing Rock and Roll throughout his career, I guess some justification is needed.
Why bother if you find our "social niceties" so irksome....
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Old 10-07-2010, 11:16 PM
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Again, I stand by my statement that says the information is what's important, and the communication layer is secondary.
That makes no sense at all. Information isn't information at all until it's communicated.

If I say, "The drum intro to 'Rock and Roll' by Led Zeppilin," where's the information there? There isn't any.

Where do you get your information? Whether it's from books or DVDs or record albums or sheet music, that information has been communicated to you. Without communication there can't be any information.

Communication=information.
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Old 10-08-2010, 02:05 AM
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That makes no sense at all. Information isn't information at all until it's communicated.

If I say, "The drum intro to 'Rock and Roll' by Led Zeppilin," where's the information there? There isn't any.

Where do you get your information? Whether it's from books or DVDs or record albums or sheet music, that information has been communicated to you. Without communication there can't be any information.

Communication=information.
O.o When he used the word "communication" he was OBVIOUSLY referring to the FORM of such communication; he means that as long as the form is clear on the aspects pertaining to the information such communication is trying to provide, anything extra shouldn't be regarded to determine it's validity.


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Old 10-08-2010, 02:19 AM
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That makes no sense at all. Information isn't information at all until it's communicated.

If I say, "The drum intro to 'Rock and Roll' by Led Zeppilin," where's the information there? There isn't any.

Where do you get your information? Whether it's from books or DVDs or record albums or sheet music, that information has been communicated to you. Without communication there can't be any information.

Communication=information.
How deep, nothing exists until it's communicated in a way that is approved by the listener. It's cool if you like to be particular about how information is communicated to you, but I'm not picky. I'll take useful information from an ass and I'll discard useless information from someone polite.

I'm only trying to defend Fox's position that the drummer will be better served to analyze the song in relation to where the beats fall in the measure rather than to hum a different song to him/herself to accomplish what needs to be accomplished. We all may have not liked the way it was communicated, but the information was more relevant than his politeness...

Trying to insult my intelligence by telling me I don't make any sense while using a mathematical equation to somehow prove that two completely different things (information and communication) are equal from your perspective doesn't help your case at all.

The info in your random example including Led Zeppelin is that you're bad at spelling. You didn't communicate that info directly, but it's there.

You guys defending the position that information is only useful when delivered in a polite and acceptable fashion from the perspective of the listener is just insane. Get over it.
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Old 10-08-2010, 02:53 AM
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Default Re: Rock and roll Led Zeppelin (help needed)

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I'm only trying to defend Fox's position that the drummer will be better served to analyze the song in relation to where the beats fall in the measure rather than to hum a different song to him/herself to accomplish what needs to be accomplished. We all may have not liked the way it was communicated, but the information was more relevant than his politeness...
Except that the information that Fox communicated was wrong by any standard of music analysis, for the very simple reason that his analysis greatly confuses the issue. That doesn't serve the drummer well in the least.

Fox's analysis of of the drum intro shows six measures, the first measure being in 3/8. Wrong. The first measure is a pickup measure, it doesn't get a measure number because pickup measures never get measure numbers. Also, the pickup measure should be in the same meter as the rest of the song.

Moving on, the intro to "Rock and Roll" is four measures long (after the pickup.) But Fox's analysis is five measures long, and at the end of the fifth measure he places a final bar line, which indicates the end of a section of music. But the intro is only four measures long. Wrong. Confusing and wrong.

I'm sorry, Fox. I know this is going to make you angry but there just isn't anything I can do about that.

The "Johnny B. Good" intro example is a great way to communicate the technical essence of the intro to the song we're discussing. And it's much, much better than the flat-out wrong analysis that Fox posted here.

There are many ways to get an idea across, and no matter what way is used it always comes down to what works and what doesn't.
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Old 10-08-2010, 03:11 AM
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Whatever. I know how to play it and that's all that really matters. I bow out of the pissing contest.
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Old 10-08-2010, 03:19 AM
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Except that the information that Fox communicated was wrong by any standard of music analysis, for the very simple reason that his analysis greatly confuses the issue. That doesn't serve the drummer well in the least.

Fox's analysis of of the drum intro shows six measures, the first measure being in 3/8. Wrong. The first measure is a pickup measure, it doesn't get a measure number because pickup measures never get measure numbers. Also, the pickup measure should be in the same meter as the rest of the song.

Moving on, the intro to "Rock and Roll" is four measures long (after the pickup.) But Fox's analysis is five measures long, and at the end of the fifth measure he places a final bar line, which indicates the end of a section of music. But the intro is only four measures long. Wrong. Confusing and wrong.

I'm sorry, Fox. I know this is going to make you angry but there just isn't anything I can do about that.

The "Johnny B. Good" intro example is a great way to communicate the technical essence of the intro to the song we're discussing. And it's much, much better than the flat-out wrong analysis that Fox posted here.

There are many ways to get an idea across, and no matter what way is used it always comes down to what works and what doesn't.
Well, I think it's obvious to anyone that the last bar is part of the Rock and Roll drum groove, I don't think anyone will confuse it with part of the intro, as there's not even crash cymbals on the intro. I already told you my whole foundation for writing it as 3/8. Writing it in 3/8 is by no means wrong, there's certain advantages in this case for writing it as an Anacrusis (the technical term for "pickup"), but it is quite clear to pretty much ANYONE with a basic idea of time signatures that the 3/8 designates a bar that's only 3 eighth notes long, which is pretty much what the pickup is. Oh, wait! you've GOT to count those rests, otherwise, the part is wrongly played. But also keep in mind droveto jumped in even before you did, and the matter of my information being wrong or not was not being analyzed, he meant no reference to it.
If you, and some other people want to think of it as an anacrusis, that's fine. But if you play my transcription note for note, you'll be playing Rock and Roll perfectly. As I mentioned, the fact that your approach might be better for the case at hand doesn't mean mine is wrong, moreover, aren't you more useful somewhere else? Because I am pretty sure not many people care whether what I wrote was technically proper or not, it contained all the notes from the intro, so, it was in fact a note for ntoe transcription. I am starting to not care myself. Go help on notations that are a little more difficult than a couple of eighth notes; although I'm pretty sure that's a little off your league, and that's the only reason you go over and over and over again on this same issue.


Fox.
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Old 10-08-2010, 03:21 AM
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Default Re: Rock and roll Led Zeppelin (help needed)

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Whatever. I know how to play it and that's all that really matters. I bow out of the pissing contest.
You've been taken apart here :D Fact is, etiquette has it's place on internet forums, particularly this board. Basic manners are necessary in order to avoid 'pissing contests' and to maintain the exchange of information. There's nothing wrong with being direct, if the information is good. In this case, Fox wasn't spot on with his ideas.
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