Ludwig's new Signet 105 drum line!

bermuda said:
These are Sonor finishes,

Bermuda
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These are Chinese Copies of the Italian company ALPI from what I can see. If you look at what Sonor options , which is a few of their finishes.. and compare them to these.. The Sonor Italian ALPI look much more vivid and distinct to me.

This stuff is now all over China and I don't think Ludwig is looking to spend the bucks on ALPI. ALPI is not cheap.
 
Artstar said:
These are Chinese Copies of the Italian company ALPI from what I can see... I don't think Ludwig is looking to spend the bucks on ALPI. ALPI is not cheap.
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The whole gist of the kit is an American-made, American maple shell at a very low price. I don't blame them for saving the money in order to keep the customer's cost down.

If true, I will say Sonor-like or Sonor-type veneer from now on.

Bermuda
 
Artstar said:
8 Lugs on the 22" ????

Hmm.
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It's a cost-savings that's passed along to the customer, but I don't see why it would be an issue. If anything, the reduced hardware explains why the kick sounds great!

Bermuda
 
8 lugs on a 22" BD is not a problem. Just play an old Gretsch Broadkaster and see for yourself.
 
bermuda said:
It's a cost-savings that's passed along to the customer, but I don't see why it would be an issue. If anything, the reduced hardware explains why the kick sounds great!

Bermuda
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This is true, especially on a thinner shell. Many think hardware mass makes no difference on a bass drum (for anyone who's heard it, I think our little 20" x 12" bass drum proves against that in spades). On a heavy shell, & especially if you muffle for a short head note, there is no difference. On a thinner or otherwise more resonant drum, it makes quite a big difference. Again, I'm referring to shell resonance = more prominent fundamental - the very voice of the drum, not length of head note/decay/sustain.

On higher end drums, the decision to use 8 or 10 lugs is based on a number of factors, although many view it as only a cost saving measure. Of course, on budget drums, it's purely a cost saving measure. On finer instruments, there's a hardware mass consideration as I described above, but there's also other factors. For example, stiffness/rigidity of hoop (a more flexible hoop requires more lugs to keep tuning even), how fine the thread is on the tension screws, & indeed, how low will the drum typically be tuned. Less lugs = better tuning retention at low tensions. Diameter of drum is also a consideration. it makes no sense to have 10 lugs on an 18" bass drum, just as putting 8 lugs on a 26" bass drum is probably not a great idea unless you've mitigated hoop flex issues.

Just some factors to ponder :)
 
I have no problem with the concept of putting it together your self. In fact, this is not new. I remember watching a video of how to assemble other kits that came disassembled. I like the colors, but seems expensive for a less labor intensive kit. I wish them well!
 
A kit with a Ludwig USA bass drum head for $799 is a good thing. I hope these stand the test of time. I wonder what they're value might be for collectors 50 years from now..?

Anyway, can someone (Bermuda?) confirm that there is no matching snare option available?
 
keep it simple said:
This is true, especially on a thinner shell. Many think hardware mass makes no difference on a bass drum (for anyone who's heard it, I think our little 20" x 12" bass drum proves against that in spades). On a heavy shell, & especially if you muffle for a short head note, there is no difference. On a thinner or otherwise more resonant drum, it makes quite a big difference. Again, I'm referring to shell resonance = more prominent fundamental - the very voice of the drum, not length of head note/decay/sustain.

On higher end drums, the decision to use 8 or 10 lugs is based on a number of factors, although many view it as only a cost saving measure. Of course, on budget drums, it's purely a cost saving measure. On finer instruments, there's a hardware mass consideration as I described above, but there's also other factors. For example, stiffness/rigidity of hoop (a more flexible hoop requires more lugs to keep tuning even), how fine the thread is on the tension screws, & indeed, how low will the drum typically be tuned. Less lugs = better tuning retention at low tensions. Diameter of drum is also a consideration. it makes no sense to have 10 lugs on an 18" bass drum, just as putting 8 lugs on a 26" bass drum is probably not a great idea unless you've mitigated hoop flex issues.

Just some factors to ponder :)
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I fully agree. The thing is, at least in my still unschooled thought process, we are doing all kinds of things to kill and change the response envelope of the kick; in other words with dampening heads, pillows and etc...

I think the lug mass and the inherent properties it does or does not filter would be far more discernible if we could get a kick that can be wide open so we could get the full tone of the drum. Without emads, pillows, etc

The longer I play and the more I learn, the more I am convinced that I'm going to make it my quest to use only bass drums that can be used with no special heads or muffling.

My Ludwig 24x16 centennial maple is very very close to that requirement...I suspect 24x15 or 14 would be the homerun.

On the 12" tom especially though, i do think optimizing the lug mass would really open some eyes in terms of the sonic depth and timbre of resonace...timbre is the key with the harmonics being allowed to sing without the filtering of extra mass.
 
larryz said:
A kit with a Ludwig USA bass drum head for $799 is a good thing. I hope these stand the test of time. I wonder what they're value might be for collectors 50 years from now..?

Anyway, can someone (Bermuda?) confirm that there is no matching snare option available?
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There's not snare at this time, and I don't know if they'll offer one down the line.

Hard to say on future value in the MI world, things are so up or down for no apparent reason. Why does a used '70s 6.5" Supra sell for more than a new one?

mandrew said:
I have no problem with the concept of putting it together your self. In fact, this is not new. I remember watching a video of how to assemble other kits that came disassembled. I like the colors, but seems expensive for a less labor intensive kit. I wish them well!
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You've seen another brand new, North American Maple kit from ANY American manufacturer, or custom or boutique builder, for less?? Ludwig needs to know about this, and I need to know so I can stop saying how unique the Signet is in the marketplace.

There are other non-US kits that come without heads installed so they can nest, but do you also have to install lugs, mounts and legs? If so, you've still got an entry level kit that takes a lot longer than the Signet to get ready to play.

But for some, a kit is a kit, and by all means, they should save money where they can. The Signet is not for them. It's not an entry-level kit, and it's really not priced like one. But it is the least expensive US-made all-maple kit. If that's incorrect, I need to know.

[Bermuda
 
Mike St.Clair said:
Looks just like the ones I saw at GC in Raleigh NC.....
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Yup I live in Raleigh these days. I play in a couple bands here in the area. I promised my wife no more drums but man that kit is nice!! My '67 club date is so cool though and I have a rare finish so.

I bet you that signet kit is like 799 Euros in Germany! If I go back I will buy a couple to bring with me to sell.
 
The finish is molded with the other plies to make the shell - it's the 7th ply. Apart from the material cost, there's no extra labor cost to 'apply' to the shell. I doubt that a raw shell would really save significant money, and I certainly wouldn't be interesed in finishing or otherwise having to protect it from dirt and smudges.



Pretty sure not having the cost of a finish ply would put the price down even further, talking an upstart, maybe too small a margin for LUDWIG to worry about on the bottom line, they'd be hesitant to put out raw shells anyway.


A simple vid on how to stain a raw shell, its pretty easy, there's a big market for on the fence do it yourselfers. I would definitely consider an integrated parts offering with quality stuff, finish it myself the way I want.
 
On higher end drums, the decision to use 8 or 10 lugs is based on a number of factors, although many view it as only a cost saving measure. Of course, on budget drums, it's purely a cost saving measure. On finer instruments, there's a hardware mass consideration as I described above, but there's also other factors. For example, stiffness/rigidity of hoop (a more flexible hoop requires more lugs to keep tuning even), how fine the thread is on the tension screws, & indeed, how low will the drum typically be tuned. Less lugs = better tuning retention at low tensions. Diameter of drum is also a consideration. it makes no sense to have 10 lugs on an 18" bass drum, just as putting 8 lugs on a 26" bass drum is probably not a great idea unless you've mitigated hoop flex issues.


Please Andy, there's NO drum manufacture on the planet that considers putting 8 lugs on their (other than budget) bass drums for tonal purposes save for GURU, its ALL about saving a buck.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a trend to go to 8, it could be cleverly marketed, like quality chips going from a 4 oz bag to 3 just b/c the product (is supposed) to be/taste better.

The majors would do well in the long run to lose those 2 extra lugs in the name of resonance, a tuff sell but 5000 x 2 or 4 =savings to the manufacture that wouldn't need to be passed down to the customer. The drumming community is conditioned to pay more for resonance.
 
Les Ismore said:
Pretty sure not having the cost of a finish ply would put the price down even further, talking an upstart, maybe too small a margin for LUDWIG to worry about on the bottom line, they'd be hesitant to put out raw shells anyway.
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They've issued only one set of raw shells that I know of, under duress, for an important artist. (not me, I said important.)

A simple vid on how to stain a raw shell, its pretty easy, there's a big market for on the fence do it yourselfers. I would definitely consider an integrated parts offering with quality stuff, finish it myself the way I want.
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Staining isn't rocket surgery, although making it look pro is, unless you have a spray booth and experience. I would think a company's lugs and hardware and badge on a poorly-finished drum isn't appealing to them, so they don't offer a do-it-yourself finish option. You could buy all the components and start from scratch, but those don't come from a drum company or carry a brand name or have any resale value. To my knowledge, Ludwig doesn't offer their raw shells for sale to anyone.

There's also a line between a completely assembled kit, and a pile of parts and raw, unedged, undrilled shells (which would obviously cost the least of all.) Ludwig is staying on the safe side of the line by keeping the end-user involvement to a manageable and attractive level reflected in the lower price.

Bermuda
 
Les Ismore said:
On higher end drums, the decision to use 8 or 10 lugs is based on a number of factors, although many view it as only a cost saving measure. Of course, on budget drums, it's purely a cost saving measure. On finer instruments, there's a hardware mass consideration as I described above, but there's also other factors. For example, stiffness/rigidity of hoop (a more flexible hoop requires more lugs to keep tuning even), how fine the thread is on the tension screws, & indeed, how low will the drum typically be tuned. Less lugs = better tuning retention at low tensions. Diameter of drum is also a consideration. it makes no sense to have 10 lugs on an 18" bass drum, just as putting 8 lugs on a 26" bass drum is probably not a great idea unless you've mitigated hoop flex issues.


Please Andy, there's NO drum manufacture on the planet that considers putting 8 lugs on their (other than budget) bass drums for tonal purposes save for GURU, its ALL about saving a buck.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a trend to go to 8, it could be cleverly marketed, like quality chips going from a 4 oz bag to 3 just b/c the product (is supposed) to be/taste better.

The majors would do well in the long run to lose those 2 extra lugs in the name of resonance, a tuff sell but 5000 x 2 or 4 =savings to the manufacture that wouldn't need to be passed down to the customer. The drumming community is conditioned to pay more for resonance.
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Maybe I'm too trusting ;)

There's many who may pay more for increased resonance, but frankly, it's rarely delivered. The mixing up of resonance & head sustain suits many drum companies. Bluntly, most players don't even know what affect resonance has on a drum's characteristics. Many believe it offers more sustain, & completely miss the part that's actually important.

Anyhow, I digress. We use quite a complex formula to decide on numbers of lugs. because our lugs are so low mass anyhow, strangely, mass doesn't feature prominently in that decision. For average lugs, it absolutely should feature. Take snares as an example, using fairly standard lug designs, Ronn Dunnett only produces 8 lug snares. His reasoning for doing so is absolutely sound, & nothing to do with money saving as far as i can make out.

Back to the Signet, I'd like to think that Ludwig made the 8 lug bass drum decision, at least partially, on performance considerations. The whole kit design is fairly stripped down, so I think 8 lug works well with the overall design principal. The lower mass of the Signet lugs also add to the appeal to me. Of course, Ludwig can't say that, because it casts dispersions on the design principals applied to their higher end drums.

To some extent, much of what I'm saying doesn't apply widely anyhow. I'd only describe about 5% of drums on the market as highly resonant, but some of the thinner ply drums are knocking on the door of that sector (e.g. Sonor Prolite). Thing is, most manufacturer's would have you believe that all their drums are highly resonant. Why do you think many players don't hear the difference between a drum with a wrap & one without? Simple, the total instrument (including shell hardware) isn't that resonant to begin with.

Sorry, rambling again. Just to re-state my feelings, I think the Signet is one of the most holistically valid designs I've seen in a long time.
 
There's many who may pay more for increased resonance, but frankly, it's rarely delivered.

Subjectivity? MOONGELS are selling very well thank you.

Shell resonance/head vibration two different factors/things??? You're talking hocus pocus to average Joe Drummer.





I'd like to think that Ludwig made the 8 lug bass drum decision, at least partially, on performance considerations.

Understandable, but from a yank perspective- no. Willing to bet the farm its economic, but surely it could be played (marketed) otherwise.

There may have been some upstarts who've done comparison testing, found out 8 is great, but look at the market pressure. To get/be in the game your hi-end kicks have got to be 10... and 'only' b/c the budget ones are 8.

The drumming community is conditioned to pay more for resonance. That angle is open to be played cleanly for profit. Time to get excited and sing the song, less hardware = more resonance.
 
Les Ismore said:
To get/be in the game your hi-end kicks have got to be 10... and 'only' b/c the budget ones are 8..
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I know.. right ? This is absolutely how it is.. and when the majors switch to 8.. then maybe some of this thread would fly.

Waiting on C.Maples and Legacy to go 8.

It's better.. remember ?

They are about to switch. I can feel it !
 
.......they are about to switch. I can feel it !


If you're talking about LUDWIG, that'd be a major stretch.



For certain its not going to be 'because of' an upstart trailblazers efforts like GURU. The majors will quietly play the '10 lug rule' down, and against any competitive profiteering.

LUDWIG is right in the center of the market, the 'if its working don't mess with it' attitude is going to prevail.
 
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