Has tradition been holding drummers back for 100+ years?

Zackie_1

Junior Member
(I have to be fair and warn you this is a bit long and preachy, though I feel that’s what many of you are looking for if you clicked on this thread.)

Hello

So for a long time now I’ve been thinking about how we drummers go about what we do. Not necessarily what we do, but why, how, why not another way. As I’m sure we all know there are a large amount of drummers fighting for the “open hand” style of playing and this is kind of what I’m talking about. Playing with crossed hands hasn’t made any sense to me since my very first lesson at 12 years old. I sat down at the kit and naturally put my left hand on the high hat and my right on the snare (or floor or whatever), and then my teacher took my hands and crossed them. I asked why and he said something along the lines of “well because you are right handed and that’s how right handed drummers play” (I would like to add at this point that he was left handed and played open handed on a righty kit, bastard lol). Being that I was 12 I took that without question and dove into the beautiful world of hitting things for money and pleasure.

Now I understand how this wound up being the norm (though please feel free to correct me if my history is a bit off). The snare drum comes from military applications when a drummer would march along with the soldiers into war (presumably to act as a shield). At the time the drum was played on a guitar-like strap and would hang by the side (which is why the snare is still sometimes called a side drum). When playing a drum like that it makes no sense to hold the sticks in matched grip because your left elbow (or right depending on how you put the drum on) would have to stick way up level with your head. This is where traditional grip came from. That was all well and good but eventually someone had the great fortune of inventing the bass drum pedal and the high hat stand and the modern drum kit was born. This is the part where the title of the post comes into play. Since the drummers who played the first drum kits had before that been military or marching drummers they brought their traditional grip with them. With a traditional grip the way the ‘standard’ drum kit (a phrase I hate) is set up makes sense. You have good access to your toms underneath your right hand and obviously your right hand can reach everything fine, especially with the old school Buddy Rich or Ringo Starr style kits. At this point a lot of drummers realized that is you want to make your single stroke rolls to sound even you should, oh I don’t know, hold both sticks the same way like ALL other percussionists play, good. But again drummers decided not to go any further and think about how to make things even better. Drummers were/are still playing cross handed and frankly I find it just silly.

As I mentioned before there is an open hand revolution happening in the drum world and while I completely agree it’s better than playing cross handed I find myself screaming THEN WHY ARE YOU STILL PLAYING A KIT SET UP FOR TRADITIONAL CROSS HANDED PLAYING!!!! To me, it seems just silly to set up a kit with everything essentially to the right of the player, it would be like sitting perpendicular to a piano trying to play both hands crossing over your body (anyone ever try playing 16th on the ride of a standard 5 piece kit?). Well I don’t know about any of you but I’m tired of playing with an encumbered instrument. The issue then becomes how do you fix it? It seems to me only logical to make the drum kit as symmetrical as possible. Why not have the high hat front and center? It’s certainly not an original idea on my part and there are a lot of drummers that do this. The only reason I can see this not being the norm is the price. It is much more expensive to get a remote high hat or an X hat than a regular one but to me seems very worth it (P.S. if anyone has a speedy hat I would REALLY like to buy it from you). That all being said please don’t get me wrong, if you play traditional, or matched, ‘standard’ kit, or symmetrical it is truly how you use it that matters. I play cross handed to this day because it was how I was taught, though I’ve seen the light and I’m changing my ways.

It reminds me of an old story. In a small town there is a woman who makes the best roast in all the land. Trying to find out how she makes such a good roast a recipe book writer contacts her and finds out she cuts the end off of every roast and throws it away. The writer asks her why she does this and she says “my mother taught me how to make roast and that’s how she always did it”. The writer is intrigued and makes contact with the mother who explains she was taught by HER mother and the writer finds her. When the writer, after a long search, finds the grandmother he asks “why do you cut the end off your roasts? What effect could that possibly have on the taste?”. The grandmother replies “don’t be stupid, I only used to cut the end off because in the old days I had a very small oven so the roast would never fit. I have a Kenmore now that fits 4 roasts at a time”. So please, I beg of you, don’t keep wasting perfectly good roast beef.
 
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What are we "held back" from?

Isn't this like saying that not using a double bass pedal is "holding us back"? Isn't this just a matter of preference, how you like to play and how you might like something to sound? Some people setup their kits in weird ways that work for them. If they felt held back, that's the right decision for them.

Me, I prefer to focus on playing and not obsess too much over kit parts, setup, or finding faults in either.

To put it another way: I don't think most traditional setup drummers consider themselves as "held back".
 
Actually open handedness is really just about the drummer. Some people want to do the high hats with their dominant hand some people want to do it with the non dominant. It makes sense more to me to use my dominant hand to play eight notes while my non dominant hand is doing quarter notes. Obviously for you it was the opposite.
 
I dropped cross hand playing around 1995....and heartily suggest everyone to at least experiment with it.

Keep in mind that your HiHat does not have to reside to one side of your set...thanks to the advent of remote hihat technology.

...I also lost the ability to be fully comfortable on other peoples sets...but that has proven to be more of a positive than a negative.(...as you tend to get what you accept)
 
I can see how there are some advantages to playing open handed. I recently had to learn Don't Stop Believing by Journey and found that Steve Smith played that song open handed to give him his right hand to hit toms and cymbals while maintaining 1/8s on his hat. So I started experimenting with it. I think it makes sense to be able to play that way. But if Steve Smith was able to play open handed perfectly well some 20 years ago, and it was definately the "right" way to play, why does he not do it all of the time?

I think you are over stating the issue.

If you play open handed good for you. I don't think it is wise to try to make the case everyone else is doing it wrong.

To be able to do all the things the great drummers do you would not be able to never cross over so I just don't see the issue.
 
Evey time I see an open handed player I think its a lefty who learned on a righty kit. just seems like you should lead with your dominant hand and therefore your dominant foot on the bass pedal, that's why it the low boy, which was played exclusively with the foot, became the hi-hat remained on the left/cross over side.
 
Firstly, I may have come off brash originally. I have no problems with a drummer setting up a kit in any configuration they want or using whatever grip they want. What I’m saying is that the ‘standard’ (again I hate that word when it comes to set up) is limiting. Also this thread is NOT about open handed playing, it's about a symmetrical set up (high hat and snare in the center and toms equal on both sides).

Kyle - On a kit with the high hat in the middle you can (and I would) play the hats with your dominant hand, however, it gives you more versatility to play with your “lesser” hand as well. I think (and feel free to disagree) in a perfect world we don’t have dominant hands or weaker hands, both are just as comfortable playing anything.

Dr_Watso - Yes, it is exactly like saying not having a double bass pedal is holding you back, holding you back from playing anything with a double bass drum pattern in it (really fast feet aside, I’m talking about convenience here). I know not every style of music has much if any double bass in it, but does that mean a jazz drummer should never use a double bass drum? If Louie Bellson (who was a jazz drummer and “inventor” of double bass) had never thought to himself “hey, why NOT have two bass drums?” then how would Metal or music in general sound today? I’m sure he wasn’t thinking of speed metal when he came up with the idea but today it’s a recognizable form of music that millions of people love. Now, while you may be right that I do worry a bit too much about set up and gear it’s only because I think what we are being taught as right (and remember some people teach the ‘standard’ set up as the only proper set up, and almost everyone starts on one) is all really silly. However on the flip side I think to not give any thought to how you set up your kit leads to people sinking into one style and not expanding on our art. Which, joking aside, makes me kind of sad. I just think people should start on a symmetrical kit and find out what kind of drummer they are and how they want to set up their kit from there.

Would you agree or disagree that having a symmetrical kit (high hat and snare in the center and toms equal on both sides) gives you more options or not? Regardless of style or any one drummers current preference.
 
This is a well-worn topic and there are a lot of threads already out there where we've hashed it all out. But I'll rehash my 2 cents.

One thing to note is that for us jazz players, we don't cross over almost ever; the ride cymbal is to our right, and that's what right-handed drummers spend most of their time on.

I don't find the "traditional" approach to be holding me back. I can ride hats with my left hand if need be, like Steve Smith's Don't Stop Believin' or Gadd's 50 Ways. But I find that right hand and right foot naturally want to come down together, so the coordination of the traditional way seems very natural to me. I'd also rather attack the more complex ride patterns, be they uptempo jazz or even 8th and 16th note combinations in rock and funk, with my dominant hand. I practice difficult patterns and leads with both hands, but I know my left hand will never equal my right completely.

If I needed to ride left hand on hats, I'll do it. I just personally don't find the extra options it provides all that useful. Some drummers obviously do.

I say to each his/her own. I think both approaches have advantages and both have some disadvantages. I've chosen the one that I feel best suits my particular way of playing drums. I think everyone should do that. At this point, I could learn more open-handed techniques, but I think I'd be much better suited using my practice time improving other aspects of my playing.
 
Grab your snare stand, snare drum, and throne. Set them up so that you can play comfortably. Observe how your hands and feet are positioned. This is the most natural position you can find with the drum set. Now grab your hi-hat stand. Set it up so that the pedal is directly beneath where you left foot was when you just had the snare drum. Put your left stick on the snare drum and your right on the hi-hat. Now do the opposite. Which way is closer to the having both hands on the snare drum? Which way is more comfortable? Which hand has an easier time getting back and forth between the hi-hat and snare drum?

Personally, I find open-handed to be an incredibly awkward position. Compared to both hands on the snare, I have to pull my left hand back and raise substantially it in order to reach the hi-hat. Whereas, to reach the hi-hat with my right stick, I just rotate it upward and raise it ever so slightly.

Incidentally, I'm experimenting with set-up that's almost symmetrical. I have a floor tom and ride on my right, a rack tom and crash in the middle, and another floor tom and crash on the left. In theory, it's kind of neat. I can slip my left hand easily from the snare drum to the left-side floor tom. I can play any snare-rack-floor tom combination with any sticking. In practice, it just doesn't seem that beneficial. There's not really anything I can do with it that I can't do without the left-side cymbal and tom. And it suffers from the same problem as Grandma's pot roast. A symmetrical set-up has a huge footprint that won't fit in the oven.
 
Hey Zackie,

While I understand your passion, everyone is very different, I don't think you really don't want everyone playing open.

But the biggest thing is no one is enforcing you to play a certain way. OK your teacher did, but really is somebody looking over your shoulder when you play now? Who is really guilty? There are no limits to the instrument, just the mind, that's a known quantity.

My take on it is you found what works for you. Great! But you want everyone to follow suit. Understandable, but not realistic or even desirable. Your heart is in the right place but you are having the opposite effect I fear. But it's cool. For some stuff, for sure open is the smarter way to go, to get out of your own way. But the rest of the time, they are both equally effective methods.

I think crossed looks cooler too. Not sure why.
 
..... this thread is NOT about open handed playing, it's about a symmetrical set up (high hat and snare in the center and toms equal on both sides).


Would you agree or disagree that having a symmetrical kit (high hat and snare in the center and toms equal on both sides) gives you more options or not? Regardless of style or any one drummers current preference.

More options? Less options? More like different options. There's a plus and a minus to either.​
 

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I did say in the original post "please don’t get me wrong, if you play traditional, or matched, ‘standard’ kit, or symmetrical it is truly how you use it that matters", I also starting it all off by saying "I have to be fair and warn you this is a bit long and preachy" so please don't think I'm trying to say "my way is right and everyone else is wrong". I've met drummer who can drum circles around me while playing with screw drivers instead of sticks (no joke). All I'm trying to say is that maybe, possibly, people start on one set up and never look at alternatives.

P.S. Again, I'm not trying to hurt feeling or say there is a right way, I'm just trying to get you thinking about it if you havent.
 
Dr_Watso - Yes, it is exactly like saying not having a double bass pedal is holding you back, holding you back from playing anything with a double bass drum pattern in it (really fast feet aside, I’m talking about convenience here). I know not every style of music has much if any double bass in it, but does that mean a jazz drummer should never use a double bass drum?
I don't use a double pedal, and I'm not held back. Instead of just throwing around bass drum notes because I've got two pedals, I find something more interesting to play in the space. I've never once felt that my playing would be "better" if I had another pedal or different setup. I've played on tons of setups, it's all drums.

Really, this argument could go on forever. Currently, I can't literally play fills that require 6 toms. I can't play exactly grooves that have a cowbell. I improvise and have fun playing music. In the past, I had my obsessions with setup and gear. I thought that there was a magic setup or item that could bring my playing to new levels. I was wrong. I'm most creative and the best drummer I can be when I just play the damn thing naturally. For me, raising up my left hand and constantly switching what hand is doing what is detrimental to my playing. For times where I want hats chunking while I'm doing something on the ride, I play "open" because it makes sense. The rest of the time, it makes much more sense to use my strong side for the steady stuff, and my "weak" side for fill ins and accents and whatever else I might want to do.

Like I said, it seems to me that your argument could go on and on until everyone was playing Bozzio style kits with every imaginable note and sound possible... Or we could just play music and set things up however makes sense to our individual bodies.

And lastly, no matter how much we practice, our brains are wired a certain way. There will ALWAYS be a strong side and a weak side. I choose not to spend too much time fighting this, and focus on other aspects of music. Sure, ambidexterity is cool, it's a life goal for a lot of drummers, but for me, I think setting up the kit "open handed" would just open a can of worms that I feel is largely unnecessary.

Would you agree or disagree that having a symmetrical kit (high hat and snare in the center and toms equal on both sides) gives you more options or not? Regardless of style or any one drummers current preference.
Disagree. In fact, I think it could make the old "down the toms" type fills harder to do, since you're not moving in one direction and some parts of the kit are further apart than a traditional setup. I like that this might spur some creativity and different sounds, but I'm illustrating the point that not everything different is better than something else.
 
Sorry, but doesn't every drummer think about where everything is on his kit? And ist setup? Thats why there are adjustments, boom stands, remotes, slave pedals..

A 'revolution' underway? Lots of 'unconvention' out there for years. Bill Bruford did the whole symmetric kit thing in the 80s. Look at Abe Laboriel Jr setup. moving the floor tom to the left side ( in style now since the Black Keys drummer) has been around since some jazzers did it in 1950's. Purdie moved his toms out of order. Cymbals have moved from severely tilted to flat, and so on.

I've thought of getting a slave pedal for my single bass, and leaving my right foot where it is, but getting the bass drum the hell out of the way (to my right) and getting something else in closer in front of me. What's stopping me? Not an innovation or 'tradition' complex, its that I don't want yet an extra piece of hardware, like the slave.

Also, many consider the 'footprint' of their drums, and how they are setup in limited areas of clubs. Just thinking about it, the 'traditional setup' was/is likely the most space saving. Hmmm, that was likely important in small jazz clubs of the 1940's.

As long as there are drummers with brains they will always be thinking of different ways from 'tradition' . All the variety - from tradition to innovation - is a great spectrum to behold.
 
I am curious, what do you think are the advantages to playing cross handed?
It's easier.
what are the advantages to playing on a 'standard' kit as opposed to a symmetrical one?
1)Our bodies are not symmetrical in terms of use. The left side is less dexterous. 2) Most other kits I might choose to sit on are setup the traditional way. 3) I find that having everything come out of the center is actually more cluttered in the middle and flows in a strange way. Almost all instruments are setup for a tonal range in one direction, to the other. I move around both sides of the kit freely. With the hats direct center, both my hands have less leverage than my right hand would have if I was swinging it over my snare arm. I'm either reaching forward or scrunching my arms back if the hats are center.
 
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I second this ¬ and try to keep it simple, it works the best...

Sorry, but doesn't every drummer think about where everything is on his kit? And ist setup? Thats why there are adjustments, boom stands, remotes, slave pedals..

A 'revolution' underway? Lots of 'unconvention' out there for years. Bill Bruford did the whole symmetric kit thing in the 80s. Look at Abe Laboriel Jr setup. moving the floor tom to the left side ( in style now since the Black Keys drummer) has been around since some jazzers did it in 1950's. Purdie moved his toms out of order. Cymbals have moved from severely tilted to flat, and so on.

I've thought of getting a slave pedal for my single bass, and leaving my right foot where it is, but getting the bass drum the hell out of the way (to my right) and getting something else in closer in front of me. What's stopping me? Not an innovation or 'tradition' complex, its that I don't want yet an extra piece of hardware, like the slave.

Also, many consider the 'footprint' of their drums, and how they are setup in limited areas of clubs. Just thinking about it, the 'traditional setup' was/is likely the most space saving. Hmmm, that was likely important in small jazz clubs of the 1940's.

As long as there are drummers with brains they will always be thinking of different ways from 'tradition' . All the variety - from tradition to innovation - is a great spectrum to behold.
 
The concept of a symmetrical drum set dates back to approximately 1939:
louisbellson550678.jpg


Donny Wynn was using a hi-hat in the center with everything around it with Robert Palmer in the 80's.
Dony%20Wynn3.jpg


And as mention, Bill Bruford has been using various symmetrical type set ups for years
billbruford2.jpg


Personally, I find anything I experiment with a different set up, certain figures or ideas become much easy to play. But certain other ideas or figures become more difficult. And from there, it becomes, ok, what is more practical for the music I have in front of me.
 
Good points, I'll reply with more detail when I'm on my home computer and not my phone.

I just want to say please, please, please don't take anything I've said personally. I feel like people think I'm saying they are bad drummers, not at all. I've never heard any of you drum (I think) and am only spouting my own prejudice about drums. If you think I'm attacking you personally or your style of playing please just categorize me as an asshole and check out another thread.

Love:
Zackie
 
I'm a right-handed player and I've done everything with my setup that I can do with the gear I own. There is no cable hihat in my space, so I've only been able to use regular ol' tubular stands that put the cymbals right above my foot.

I've tried playing open-handed. It's fine.
I've done the Bill Bruford-style setup. It's fine.
Hell, I even played lefty for a week or two. It was fine.

But I don't play as well on those setups as I do on a regular drumset. It's what everyone else plays, too, so I don't have to worry about sharing drumsets with anyone. I sound my best when I play with a standard setup, and in the end, who cares what you can do if it doesn't sound good?
 
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