Using flams for triplet fills, sticking?

Volentry

Senior Member
I've watched amazing drummers like Jimmy Chamberlin, Mike Portnoy and whatnot playing a triplet fill and they flam the first note of the triplet, like: 1na2na3na (flams on the 1, 2, and 3).

My question is, what sticking do you guys use? What about when going to the toms? Do you still use the same sticking pattern for flam triplets every time despite playing only on snare or going around the toms? I tried it out myself, and found playing left hand flams or right hand flams on the first notes depending on how my individual hands are positioned before the fill (ergonomics).

An example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbEtsECnu_M 1:14 and 1:23 he plays the same fill. And 1:32 is the same fill except longer. What sticking would be the best for those 2 fills?

Sorry if I'm a little long-winded, guys. It's a bad habit of mine when I really want to know something.
 
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If you used flam taps wouldn't that make it a swiss triplet?

No, flam taps and swiss triplets sound different. Flam accent and swiss can sound the same but swiss triplets have the potential to be faster but are not alternating. The lick you see in the video there, can be done with swiss triplets too, if that makes it easier to go around the toms. Then you can use a one flam accent pattern to switch to the other hand lead if you want to go back on forth with the toms.
 
It could be thought as a non-alternating flam accent: rLRL rLRL rLRL... It's pretty similar to a herta, which uses the same sticking, but the first two notes are played as sixteenths instead of a left flam: RL R L.
 
No, flam taps and swiss triplets sound different. Flam accent and swiss can sound the same but swiss triplets have the potential to be faster but are not alternating. The lick you see in the video there, can be done with swiss triplets too, if that makes it easier to go around the toms. Then you can use a one flam accent pattern to switch to the other hand lead if you want to go back on forth with the toms.

I watched some videos explaining flam taps, and they say it's an alternating pattern which goes like: lRR rLL lRR rLL *repeat* Since it's groups of 2 or 4, it's the reason why they sound different right?

I find myself using this pattern quite naturally: rLLRLRL. It's a triplet fill btw. That means I was using a flam tap?
 
Wavelength is right, the sticking is rLRL rLRL over and over almost like a Herta (same sticking, but the flam is played more open).

BTW it's not a triplet in the video. It's 16th notes phrased in groups of 3.
 
Wavelength is right, the sticking is rLRL rLRL over and over almost like a Herta (same sticking, but the flam is played more open).

BTW it's not a triplet in the video. It's 16th notes phrased in groups of 3.

Hmm, you two might be correct, but to me it sounds a bit loose. So to my ear they aren't tight quantized 16ths, a bit leaning towards a triplet. I'm not sure if it sounded that much different with a triplet. Anyways, my ears still need some training and you SickRick definetly have more experience with transcribing so I won't argue further with you.
 
Hmm, you two might be correct, but to me it sounds a bit loose. So to my ear they aren't tight quantized 16ths, a bit leaning towards a triplet. I'm not sure if it sounded that much different with a triplet. Anyways, my ears still need some training and you SickRick definetly have more experience with transcribing so I won't argue further with you.

Who would want to argue with the king?

;)

The accent pattern is a bit misleading, but the pattern is definetly 16th notes. The grouping is 3-3-2 (at least in the first fill at 1:14 I didn't listen to the rest of the fills). It would sound much different with triplets though because the accent shifting would be lost. (Much different might be subjective though - someone without eartraining / less listening experience might think it sounds the same, but to me it's a big difference)

If you listen to a lot of Vinnie (and many other drummers, but Vinnie the most obvious) for that matter, you'll find that he is constantly using this type of accent shift to make it sound like it's a different note value. For example: On the MD2000 Solo that I wrote out there is a passage where he is playing 16th triplets but with a Flam-Accent pattern which is 7 notes long. This one just messed with my head for hours because it made me "switch" to septuplets immedeately....

Being able to play these sort of things has much more to do with eartraining than with handtraining if you ask me.
 
Who would want to argue with the king?

;)

The accent pattern is a bit misleading, but the pattern is definetly 16th notes. The grouping is 3-3-2 (at least in the first fill at 1:14 I didn't listen to the rest of the fills). It would sound much different with triplets though because the accent shifting would be lost. (Much different might be subjective though - someone without eartraining / less listening experience might think it sounds the same, but to me it's a big difference)

If you listen to a lot of Vinnie (and many other drummers, but Vinnie the most obvious) for that matter, you'll find that he is constantly using this type of accent shift to make it sound like it's a different note value. For example: On the MD2000 Solo that I wrote out there is a passage where he is playing 16th triplets but with a Flam-Accent pattern which is 7 notes long. This one just messed with my head for hours because it made me "switch" to septuplets immedeately....

Being able to play these sort of things has much more to do with eartraining than with handtraining if you ask me.

Ok. You got me interested. I have to check that solo out. I'm always playing around with different groupings so it's strange I don't see through the illusion. But as has been said in many contexts it's much different game listening _inside_ the music than it's listening outside the music. I have a lot work to be done on the outside part.

Edit: I think I heard it right now that I tapped 8th notes with my finger on the table while listening to it. And indeed the first and last note of the three notes are on the 8th note. That wouldn't happen with a triplet.
 
Ok. You got me interested. I have to check that solo out. I'm always playing around with different groupings so it's strange I don't see through the illusion. But as has been said in many contexts it's much different game listening _inside_ the music than it's listening outside the music. I have a lot work to be done on the outside part.

Edit: I think I heard it right now that I tapped 8th notes with my finger on the table while listening to it. And indeed the first and last note of the three notes are on the 8th note. That wouldn't happen with a triplet.

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/vinniecolaiutasoloslowmotion.html

Check it out - it happens at around 30 seconds into the vid. In the transcription beneath it starts on beat 4 of bar 9.

Sticking is RLLrLRLL (the rL is a flam, so the sticking is 7 notes long). I tell you: hearing it correctly is incredibly much harder than playing it correctly. Like I said, it took me hours and hours of pure listening only to that one fill whilst counting out loud again and aigain and again and again to actually "hear" it. Before you "hear" it, you only listen to it. Big difference.

This fill actually turned me on to practising groups of 5, 7 etc. over 16th triplets and not only eighth triplets, 16th notes or 32nd notes. But once you "hear" it, it's easy. But you need to realize that it doesn't only take sticks and a pad to work on it, but pure focus on the beat and rhythm while counting out loud.
 
I've heard of people saying stuff about playing groups of 3 and stuff like that. Do groups of 3 in 16th notes mean you just play regular 16th notes, but you play like for example for that fill in the video, 1e+na2e+na, he played flam(1)-snare(e)-snare(+)-flam(a)-tom(2)-tom(e)-midtom(+)-midtom(a). Is that right?

Edit: Yeah I tapped 8th notes, the first and last of the 3 notes does land on the 8th notes. So the fill was just 16th notes...

Anyway how do you actually train your ear to differentiate between triplets and 16th notes phrased in 3s? Or training your ear musically for anything. How do you actually train that?
 
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I've heard of people saying stuff about playing groups of 3 and stuff like that. Do groups of 3 in 16th notes mean you just play regular 16th notes, but you play like for example for that fill in the video, 1e+na2e+na, he played flam(1)-snare(e)-snare(+)-flam(a)-tom(2)-tom(e)-midtom(+)-midtom(a). Is that right?

Edit: Yeah I tapped 8th notes, the first and last of the 3 notes does land on the 8th notes. So the fill was just 16th notes...

Anyway how do you actually train your ear to differentiate between triplets and 16th notes phrased in 3s? Or training your ear musically for anything. How do you actually train that?

I needed a second to decipher what your wrote out, but yes: This is exactly what he's playing.

On to eartraining: First of all I think that eartraining is one of the most essential but yet most overlooked / underrated skills not only in drumming, but in music in general. Training your ear offers so many advantages, they are too many to name... Just to point out a few it gives you much more confidence and freedom to your playing because you get a better understanding for what is actually happening. It also let's you interact much better with your fellow musicians because you understand what they are playing as they play it and because you can relate better to what they are playing. Then there is the quite obvious bonus of stealing grooves and licks ;)

I have trained my ears to a degree where I can almost instantly tell what a drummer is playing and how he is playing it (sticking) which gives me the ability to just go ahead and imitate what I like by writing it out and then playing it.

Ok, after the showing off part, here are a few pointers on how to work on this:

First of all - as with all things that you practise - there is no big secret to training ears. It is nothing but listening experience: Once you know how something sounds like, you can tell what it is when you hear it. Simple as that.

On the other hand this means, that you have to learn an awfull lot of rhythms and sounds step by step. Just like with all other things: There is also no real shortcut. But there are some things that you can work on and practise that will help you out a great deal as you go along. These are three different things (and of course this only includes rhythm-training. I am not touching on ear training for melody/harmony instruments where you have to distinguish between chords, scales and intervals as well - this right here is strictly for drummers). So here it goes:

1.: IMO the basis for all things are note values. Simple as that. You have to be able to play, count and read all basic note values with ease before you progress on to the next steps. The basic note values are whole notes, half notes, eighth notes, 16th notes and 32nd notes. Then there are all the corresponding triplets: whole note triplets, half note triplets, quarter note triplets, eighth note triplets and 16th triplets.
The way to learn these is by playing them to a click while counting out loud. There is also a ton of snare drum literature which is made up of these things. A good starting point for eartraining would be to have someone play you some bars from different snare etudes and then writing these out. Make sure that there are no flams/rolls in the etudes though as these things tend to make things too difficult in the beginning. Start easy by only using bars that focus on one or two note values, then go on to more difficult things or increase the tempo. Try to get to a point where you can write out 2-4 bars in 4/4 after listening only once or twice. Once you are comfortable writing out snare pieces that apply all the above note values you are ready for step two.

2.: Rudiments and Sticking Combinations. This is easy. Learn all the rudiments and internalise their sound. Also learn the most common and most used stickings and hand-foot combinations. These are the things that all the cool licks and fills are made up of, so the benefit of this is quite obvious. Then go ahead and do the same thing as above: Write things out that someone else plays for you. Wilcoxon's All American Drummer is a great starting point: Someone plays you bars from all these solos and you write them out. Once your comfortable, go to the next level by orchestrating things on the drums and writing out the orchestration.

3.: Syncopation and Rhythms that go over the barline. This is where the fun starts. :) All the spice in playing comes from doing these type of things - it's the reason why some drummers sound boring and others sound great. Everybody can learn how to play rudiments.... orchestrating them around the kit using different note values and note groupings is a totally different story. Go ahead and learn how different rhyhms sound like. Start with something easy - like 8th notes:

Learn how different accent-patterns played over straight 8th notes sound like. Start with accenting every 2nd note. Then every 3rd note. Then every 5th note. 7, 9....

Once comfortable take the next note value: 16th notes. Groups of 2,3,4,5,6,7....
After that: On to triplets.

Everything on snare-drum only!!!! First learn how to play it, then how to write it out. Once comfortable, apply things to the drumset and start using flams, rolls, drags etc.

Once you are comfy with that, you're almost there....

4.: Apply everything to everything: rudiments in different note values and over different groups of notes like Paradiddles played over triplets or flam-accents played over 16th notes. Or a sticking in 5 with flams played over triplets..... whatever you can think of. Everything orchestrated around the drums.

Never forget that orchestration is the key to make things sound reallys spicy. vinnie could probably play a group of 2 notes played in quarter notes and make it sound like something really weird....


I hope this was helpfull. If you have any questions, just let me know.
 
Wow. Thank you so very much for these exercises! I understand the importance of eartraining by watching the Jojo Mayer DVD; he talks about something like that.

Pretty much what you mean is to basically play all the note values, all the rudiments, and different accent patterns at all tempos and to internalize their sound, right? Looks like there's a lot to work on...
 
Wow. Thank you so very much for these exercises! I understand the importance of eartraining by watching the Jojo Mayer DVD; he talks about something like that.

Pretty much what you mean is to basically play all the note values, all the rudiments, and different accent patterns at all tempos and to internalize their sound, right? Looks like there's a lot to work on...

Yes, that's basically what I'm suggesting. First learn how to play and read them (note values, rudiments, stickings, rhythms, syncopations, orchestrations), then internalize their sound and try write them out as an exercise. Once you are able to visualize the sound of a rhythm as written out notes you're on the right track.

JoJo talks about being able to hear fast, not only play fast. It's the same concept applied to faster rhythms: there are certain combinations of sounds that will mislead you as a listener and as a player. It is really easy to get tricked into hearing a rhythm different than it has actually been played. Just listen to "I'm tweaked" by Vinnie Colaiuta - the whole song basically remains in 4/4 but it sounds like something really different at times.
 
In the case of Mike Portnoy, one of his signature fills isn't anything flam-based, but doubling the first note of a certain grouping, i.e. RL R L - RL R L - RL R L etc; "-" just meaning switch to next tom. RL could be 32nd-notes, and R L 16th notes then. Sounds a bit like flams, but isn't.

Yes, that's the Herta which Wavelenghth and I were referring to earlier. As an off-topic sidenote Portnoy would be about the last drummer I would look into for interesting/unusual fills ;)

Might be just my weird taste though.
 
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