Murray Spivack technique?

I've recently started studying this grip closely. A while back I had the idea that perhaps the best way to get my left (weak) hand up to speed with my right was to simply try to mirror what it was doing. Then one day I came across the Murray Spivack technique and realized that what I've been naturally doing for years as a self-taught drummer is almost identical to the Spivack technique.....mainly the fulcrum point and the wrist movement. The only difference really is that all the fingers of my strong hand all make contact with the stick, whereas only the 3 fingers that make the fulcrum touch the stick on my weak hand.

I know that the Spivack technique teaches that the back two fingers don't really do anything, but my back two fingers on my strong hand don't do anything other than act as a glove of sorts. I don't do any gripping or thrusting with them.

What I want to know, from others who have used this grip, is that with practice will the back two fingers of my weak hand eventually become like the fingers of my strong hand and make more contact with the stick?
 
What I want to know, from others who have used this grip, is that with practice will the back two fingers of my weak hand eventually become like the fingers of my strong hand and make more contact with the stick?

In my case, the back 2 fingers barely touches the stick. They're kinda curled up but they're not
sticking out. I get stick shock on my back 2 fingers if I try to consciously touch the stick unless I
grip it like Tony Williams (which will make you lose the Spivack grip).

The most recent adjustment I made to really get comfy with the Spivack grip is how my left
thumb works and I didn't really notice this until a few days ago even if I was always looking
at the mirror when practicing. But in my own world I prefer to call it the Spivack 'hold' and not
a grip. hehehe.

Looks like you already have a good Spivack thing going on with your RH. Just practice until
your LH feels and looks the same as your strong hand.
 
In my case, the back 2 fingers barely touches the stick. They're kinda curled up but they're not
sticking out. I get stick shock on my back 2 fingers if I try to consciously touch the stick unless I
grip it like Tony Williams (which will make you lose the Spivack grip).

The most recent adjustment I made to really get comfy with the Spivack grip is how my left
thumb works and I didn't really notice this until a few days ago even if I was always looking
at the mirror when practicing. But in my own world I prefer to call it the Spivack 'hold' and not
a grip. hehehe.

Looks like you already have a good Spivack thing going on with your RH. Just practice until
your LH feels and looks the same as your strong hand.

Thanks for the advice. I don't know if you've seen it, but in Chad Wackerman's tutorial on drum channel he says that Murray's practice routine was 2 hours per day! There's no way I'll ever be able to do that with the schedule I have. I'm lucky to get 20 uninterrupted minutes. I'm thinking I'll just start with single strokes at first to get the "feel" for the grip. Then once I feel comfortable with that I will start working on other rudiments.
 
Do you reccomend the drum channel videos? It seems I cannot get a y additional information anywhere else about Spivack
 
Do you reccomend the drum channel videos? It seems I cannot get a y additional information anywhere else about Spivack

Definitely. For just 5 dollars a month, its a great deal. The Spivack tutorial alone is worth it.
 
Thanks for the advice. I don't know if you've seen it, but in Chad Wackerman's tutorial on drum channel he says that Murray's practice routine was 2 hours per day! There's no way I'll ever be able to do that with the schedule I have. I'm lucky to get 20 uninterrupted minutes. I'm thinking I'll just start with single strokes at first to get the "feel" for the grip. Then once I feel comfortable with that I will start working on other rudiments.

Yeah, Chad said Murray was really strict when it comes to studying with him and he would
let you go if you haven't been practicing. 20 focused minutes is more than enough and I think
you have a nice approach by starting with the basics.

Do you reccomend the drum channel videos? It seems I cannot get a y additional information anywhere else about Spivack

I also recommend DrumChannel especially if you want more info on Spivack's grip. I
canceled after 5 months because I haven't been using it more often and at that time I was
getting used to the grip. Maybe in the future, I'll join again just to get a refresher. hehehe.
 
Re: Murray Spivack technique? Book/Video from Chuck Silverman

http://vimeo.com/18360817



The new video by musician, educator and author Chuck Silverman "Basic Hand Technique as Taught to Chuck Silverman by Richard Wilson and Murray Spivack" is now available. There's just not enough information out there about these two Masters of snare drum technique. Chuck very humbly gives his take on their instruction with exercises and lessons designed to improve your technique.

Included in the Video are Chapters which deal with:

Wrist Turns
The Up and Down Stroke
Flam Strokes
Rebounds
Drag Rudiments
Diddle Rudiments

Included also is an article about his lessons with these two Master Teachers.

http://store.payloadz.com/go?id=908036
 
Chuck, I am definitely going to check out your videos.
 
Thanks. Let me know if there's any way I can shed some light on Murray's teaching,

Chuck

PS I've had a good amount of success teaching via Skype. JUst let me know if you'd like more info.

Actually, what's giving me the most problem is the back 2 fingers. I let them be too loose and the grip feels too "willy nilly", I try to tuck them in just to barely make contact with the stick and the whole "grip" just falls apart. On my strong hand they so perfectly and gently cradle the stick and I want my weak hand to mirror that feel as much as possible. Even though I don't use the back 2 fingers to grip the stick, it gives me just that much more control.
 
Great one Chuck! It's so nice that somebody puts information about Murray Spivack. Hard to find on the internet, opposed to Moeller which you can find everywhere.

I have a couple questions:

- Do you rimshot also with just the 3 fingers? I mean it makes sense on the snare, toms and mostly everywhere, but rimshots feel weird to do it without the support. You're not even going to use any rebound so does it make sense?

- Do you ever use the back 2 fingers? I suppose for finger control those fingers eventually are used no?

I love this technique, and I would love to have a teacher here in London that studied with Murray.

Also, does anybody know of a teacher here in the uk preferably london, that knows well the murray spivack technique? I would really prefer to have private lessons than skype lessons since regarding technique I find it difficult without being face to face
 
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Actually, what's giving me the most problem is the back 2 fingers. I let them be too loose and the grip feels too "willy nilly", I try to tuck them in just to barely make contact with the stick and the whole "grip" just falls apart. On my strong hand they so perfectly and gently cradle the stick and I want my weak hand to mirror that feel as much as possible. Even though I don't use the back 2 fingers to grip the stick, it gives me just that much more control.

I understand what you're saying. I think the issue is the actual grip you're using and how you're using it. The stick is held by the middle finger, the "bottom of the first knuckle of the middle finger". You gently squeeze up towards the palm with that finger, holding the sticking. The thumb and forefinger act as a "guide". Pressures remain constant. The back two fingers can touch the stick but not influence the fulcrum. I think your problem is that you are not actually holding the stick with the middle finger, concentrating that that is indeed where you are holding the stick and providing a very secure fulcrum.

Chuck
 
Great one Chuck! It's so nice that somebody puts information about Murray Spivack. Hard to find on the internet, opposed to Moeller which you can find everywhere.

I have a couple questions:

- Do you rimshot also with just the 3 fingers? I mean it makes sense on the snare, toms and mostly everywhere, but rimshots feel weird to do it without the support. You're not even going to use any rebound so does it make sense?

- Do you ever use the back 2 fingers? I suppose for finger control those fingers eventually are used no?

I love this technique, and I would love to have a teacher here in London that studied with Murray.

Also, does anybody know of a teacher here in the uk preferably london, that knows well the murray spivack technique? I would really prefer to have private lessons than skype lessons since regarding technique I find it difficult without being face to face

Very good questions. OK, this technique is used for practice. What Messrs. Spivack and Wilson taught me was that it's most important _not_ to think about this technique when you are performing. The tech. will find its way into your playing, that's for sure. (Especially if you practice a few hours a day.) When I play, I just play. I don't think about the technique. Because of the thousands of hours I've put into practice, my playing is more relaxed. Rim shots are played as they need to be played. If I need all my fingers on the stick, then that's what happens. The technique allows me to be more relaxed.

You know, I don't consciously use my back two fingers although I'm sure they come into play at times.

I've had very good success teaching via Skype. Let me know if you'd like to just chat there.

Chuck
 
Very good questions. OK, this technique is used for practice. What Messrs. Spivack and Wilson taught me was that it's most important _not_ to think about this technique when you are performing. The tech. will find its way into your playing, that's for sure. (Especially if you practice a few hours a day.) When I play, I just play. I don't think about the technique. Because of the thousands of hours I've put into practice, my playing is more relaxed. Rim shots are played as they need to be played. If I need all my fingers on the stick, then that's what happens. The technique allows me to be more relaxed.

You know, I don't consciously use my back two fingers although I'm sure they come into play at times.

I've had very good success teaching via Skype. Let me know if you'd like to just chat there.

Chuck

This is a very important point. When I first started with this grip, I was really conscious with
my hands at gigs. I would look at my hands during a gig and force my mid finger to be
the fulcrum because my old grip was still present. It was very stressful! But I just kept on
working the Spivack and eventually things started falling into place.
 
This is a very important point. When I first started with this grip, I was really conscious with
my hands at gigs. I would look at my hands during a gig and force my mid finger to be
the fulcrum because my old grip was still present. It was very stressful! But I just kept on
working the Spivack and eventually things started falling into place.

I was thinking the same thing. Concentrating on the grip while playing the actual kit is very challenging. It would also explain Murray's daily 2-hour practice routine on the pad. At some point all that muscle memory takes over and you don't have to think about what your hands are doing.
 
I studied with Chad Wackerman who was a student of Murray's. Right off the bat, Chad was getting me deeply involved with Murray's techniques. I did the 15-minute exercise every day: Basically, you have a metronome, pad and a mirror in front of you watching your technique closely, while playing even, crisp strokes at 3 different tempos. First thing, you have to determine which is your "max" tempo for the exercise. This is the tempo in which you do not have ANY tension in your arms after playing even-dynamic 16ths for about 3 minutes. Since his technical approach is almost all a wrist and bounce method with the fingers being there to mostly guide the stick, the way you build speed and accuracy, is by starting about 10 bpm slower than your max. Play that solidly for 5 whole minutes, say it's 110 bpm. Take a short break and play 115 for 5 minutes, again with as crisp and even strokes as possible. Then your max, in this case 120. It doesn't seem like much to play 16ths at 120. It's the "pop" tempo and we can play 120 in our sleep. BUT, do it for 5 minutes straight with Murray-like technique, very loose, relaxed and natural. Suddenly you'll notice you can play the one-handed 16ths, Jeff Porcaro style with no effort at all. Murray's methods and my time with Chad were invaluable. Sadly he wouldn't give me a copy of Frank's "Mo's Vacation" drum score. ;)

As far as Chad goes, he's extremely underrated. He is absolutely, no doubt, one of the most crisp and flowing players who are in the "ultra-versatile" category. He's also an extremely humble and nice guy. Those three lessons/hours changed my drumming technique immensely. He also revealed that he struggled with some Zappa material at first so as effortless as he makes it look on the videos and recordings, came a lot of hours of work. He definitely deserves more credit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haZ4xRwkRVQ ("Mo's Vacation" --FZ, 1981)
 
I studied with Chad Wackerman who was a student of Murray's. Right off the bat, Chad was getting me deeply involved with Murray's techniques. I did the 15-minute exercise every day: Basically, you have a metronome, pad and a mirror in front of you watching your technique closely, while playing even, crisp strokes at 3 different tempos. First thing, you have to determine which is your "max" tempo for the exercise. This is the tempo in which you do not have ANY tension in your arms after playing even-dynamic 16ths for about 3 minutes. Since his technical approach is almost all a wrist and bounce method with the fingers being there to mostly guide the stick, the way you build speed and accuracy, is by starting about 10 bpm slower than your max. Play that solidly for 5 whole minutes, say it's 110 bpm. Take a short break and play 115 for 5 minutes, again with as crisp and even strokes as possible. Then your max, in this case 120. It doesn't seem like much to play 16ths at 120. It's the "pop" tempo and we can play 120 in our sleep. BUT, do it for 5 minutes straight with Murray-like technique, very loose, relaxed and natural. Suddenly you'll notice you can play the one-handed 16ths, Jeff Porcaro style with no effort at all. Murray's methods and my time with Chad were invaluable. Sadly he wouldn't give me a copy of Frank's "Mo's Vacation" drum score. ;)

As far as Chad goes, he's extremely underrated. He is absolutely, no doubt, one of the most crisp and flowing players who are in the "ultra-versatile" category. He's also an extremely humble and nice guy. Those three lessons/hours changed my drumming technique immensely. He also revealed that he struggled with some Zappa material at first so as effortless as he makes it look on the videos and recordings, came a lot of hours of work. He definitely deserves more credit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haZ4xRwkRVQ ("Mo's Vacation" --FZ, 1981)

That's awesome that you got to study with Chad. I've watched his lesson on drum channel quite a few times lately. I'm still struggling to "get it".
 
Basically, you have a metronome, pad and a mirror in front of you watching your technique closely, while playing even, crisp strokes at 3 different tempos. First thing, you have to determine which is your "max" tempo for the exercise. This is the tempo in which you do not have ANY tension in your arms after playing even-dynamic 16ths for about 3 minutes. Since his technical approach is almost all a wrist and bounce method with the fingers being there to mostly guide the stick, the way you build speed and accuracy, is by starting about 10 bpm slower than your max. Play that solidly for 5 whole minutes, say it's 110 bpm. Take a short break and play 115 for 5 minutes, again with as crisp and even strokes as possible. Then your max, in this case 120.

Thanks for sharing this practice method Ian. I have replaced my single stroke routine with
this one. :) I tried it and currently my max is at 70bpm. hahaha!
 
That's awesome that you got to study with Chad. I've watched his lesson on drum channel quite a few times lately. I'm still struggling to "get it".

Well, I started out studying with amazing Jim Riley for a much longer time. Jim taught me a lot of amazing technical things, pertaining to musical arrangement, reading, phrasing and technique of course. Jim employs a very strict German drum corps style, where there is no gap between the thumb and first finger. The wrist, therefore, must hinge rather than the forearm turning naturally. Whether you're going Spivack, Moeller or Gladstone, you must turn the forearm and wrist. When you hinge pivot the wrist, you put strain on the carpel bones. Plus, you cannot really achieve a full 90 degrees without doing a wrist/arm turn.

Chad asked me to play some single strokes, doubles and just play some "jazz improv" he said. I almost felt like I was auditioning for one of his old bosses. ;) He laid out how to take that technique that is perfect for field drums and quads and loosened it up, had me hold the sticks to that the stick itself could balance with the stick only being held by the crook/joint of my middle fingers in matched grip. Basically you aren't holding the stick with anything BUT the joint of the middle finger and the outside meat of my palm that the rear of the stick sits on. He even had me make some basic strokes. Then he had me place my thumb and first finger against the stick so that there was a gap of at least an inch between the thumb and first finger. This, for one thing, allows your hand's muscles to rest between strokes. When you have no gap and your thumb is tight against your hand, your muscles are working to hold that gap closed. This expels energy before you've even started playing. For another thing, the gap also allows the stick to move freely with the fingers guiding the bounce and dynamics. Closed, you simply cannot move the stick the way the Murray Spivack method dictates. That is, a freely moving stick, for which subtle wrist movements propel the stick. Bounce and rebounds are a huge part of the technique. He basically showed me that a "closed" roll or "press" roll is approached more like a triple bounce, where you literally allow the stick to bounce once and rebound twice with the fingers guiding smoothing it out.

Chad plays with a certain kind of unshakable solidity, equally relaxed and effortless. That was exactly the approach I wanted to have and still strive for. Thirteen years later, I'm doing the exact same exercises with my students and the results are pretty impressive.
 
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