I need help on beat displacement

I recently bought Gavin Harrison's " Rhythmic Illusions "
This is a fenomenal book which goes trought modulationn, subdivisions, displacement ect ...

I have some trouble with 16th notes displacement, I try to play the basic rock groove ( back beat on 2 and 4 and 8th on the hats ) one 16th note forward or backward, but i've found it extremely difficult to count and to be relaxed with .

Any advices you can give me ?

I would personally set metronome to a tempo of 40 with subdivisions of 16th notes, then slowly get the motions with being aware what is happening and counting out loud at first, until it sets into my brain as a feeling, and not as something I need to count.

The trick is to learn to feel the 16th note syncopations, or the es and the as. Tap your left foot on quarter notes and subdivide each quarter into four sixteenths. Do this slowly enough to count out loud "one e and a two e and a...". Emphasise the e and the a of the count. Then play the es and the as on the ride cymbal. Listen to it, and learn to feel it. Then place a kick on the first e, and a snare on the second e.

Displacement is a bit tricky at first, especially if you can't feel and play the 8th notes accurately. Take your time and make it simple!

egbt4 said:

I recently bought Gavin Harrison's " Rhythmic Illusions "
This is a fenomenal book which goes trought modulationn, subdivisions, displacement ect ...

I have some trouble with 16th notes displacement, I try to play the basic rock groove ( back beat on 2 and 4 and 8th on the hats ) one 16th note forward or backward, but i've foud it extremely difficult to count and to be relaxed with .

Any advices you can give me ?

Click to expand...

I count 16th notes like this: Tak e de mi (tak is 1/4, de is 1/8 and e & mi are 1/16)

Here it is for one bar: Tak e de mi Tak e de mi Tak e de mi Tak e de mi

Then I just sing out louder the one I want to play on the kick...

It goes like this for the second 16th: Tak E de mi Tak E de mi Tak E de mi Tak E de mi

Hope this helps

I think most people need to spend a lot more time working on plain old beat placement, but OK- if you're looking at ex. 3a on p. 11, try slowing it down and counting the rhythm out loud, including the downbeats- in this case you'd count 1e a 2e a 3e a 4e a. Since your ears are telling you the beat is falling on the e, emphasize the 1-2-3-4 part of the rhythm in your counting.

Doesn't sound musical to me.
I don't care how you cut it.
When I hear the drummer playing that ,I forget the music and then hear the drummer instead of focussing on the whole.

Maybe the drummer needs attention?
I practiced this stuff for a while.
Today I know how to displace an 8th note but that's as far as I took it.

I used to displace 8ths on the hats but displacing 16ths! gets into maths and not musical zone for me.

I'll shuddap now.
I know how much younguns are into technical stuff.

DarrenMcMaster-Smith said:

Doesn't sound musical to me.
I don't care how you cut it.
When I hear the drummer playing that ,I forget the music and then hear the drummer instead of focussing on the whole.

Maybe the drummer needs attention?
I practiced this stuff for a while.
Today I know how to displace an 8th note but that's as far as I took it.

I used to displace 8ths on the hats but displacing 16ths! gets into maths and not musical zone for me.

I'll shuddap now.
I know how much younguns are into technical stuff.

Click to expand...

You should really check some Gavin Harrison interviews about displacement and modulation etc ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRZOu2kpiJ4

Check that, I hope it'll change your mind ...

DarrenMcMaster-Smith said:

Doesn't sound musical to me.
I don't care how you cut it.
When I hear the drummer playing that ,I forget the music and then hear the drummer instead of focussing on the whole.

Maybe the drummer needs attention?
I practiced this stuff for a while.
Today I know how to displace an 8th note but that's as far as I took it.

I used to displace 8ths on the hats but displacing 16ths! gets into maths and not musical zone for me.

I'll shuddap now.
I know how much younguns are into technical stuff.

Click to expand...

And also this one :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DM6bDkP37wA

DarrenMcMaster-Smith said:

I used to displace 8ths on the hats but displacing 16ths! gets into maths and not musical zone for me.

Click to expand...

You don't need to be Vinnie to displace the odd 16th note on a kick or hi hat pattern. It's neither masterfully techincal nor is it particularly difficult. I'll guarantee you've done it over the course of your career.....especially in a cover band. You've been playing for years....good gigs.....good venues. You can't tell me you never shifted outside the relm of an 8th note hand or foot patttern in all that time.

But the broader issue is why you feel that something as simple as playing the hats or bass drum on an "e" or an "a" is non-musical maths?
That's just wrong brother.


OP it's simple. You need to slow down until you can "count and be relaxed with it."

Pocket-full-of-gold said:

But the broader issue is why you feel that something as simple as playing the hats or bass drum on an "e" or an "a" is non-musical maths?

Click to expand...

PFOG, great commonsense post. I had that exact same attitude as Gavin in one of my old bands (with 100th of his skill) - to avoid the most obvious approach at all costs. Love a bit of simple beat displacement, but it's very unforgiving. If your timing's just a bit out a displacement can get people confused.

But ... I think I get where Darren's coming from (Darren, correct me if I'm wrong). Seems to me that he's going through a phase of returning to the roots. He wants to strip off the veneer and get down to the guts of it. It's a well trod path ... like John Lennon saying rock and roll is just saying what you mean over a beat.

It's the musician's equivalent to moving house and having a major cleanout, only keeping the bare essentials.

Thing is, after you go through the reductionism thing, after a while you start to think ... ho hum, same old same old ... hmm, this song sounds a lot like the other 23 tunes ... wouldn't mind mixing things up a bit ... hmm, this part could do with some spice to give it a lift ...

... and the cycle continues ...

... until you get sick of the clutter and start seeking clarity ...

Not a fan of Porcupine Tree at all.

Didn't mind Steve Wilson's solo album but Porcupine Tree just don't do it for me.
Same with Dream Theater.

Dream Theater sound very dated.

Yes I know they are fantastic musicians and I honestly thought Virgil would get the gig,but they just don't move me like a Genesis or Jethro Tull do.

Modern fusion and modern prog -ew.

I need some bloody passion.

Some Cobham attitude.

LIke Mahavishnu Orchestra.

Gee Even McLaughlin's latest stuff is very boring compared to The Inner Mounting Flame.

What happened to open drum tones?

Phil's drumming on The Lamb with his magnificent sounding toms and Cobhams incredible sounding drumset on Spectrum.
Now it's dull dull thud.

YAwn.
My opinion though.

We all think of music on different levels.

I found these 2 genres very boring.

I think that's why I love 50s and 60s jazz.
THE SOUNDS ARE ORGANIC SEX!!!!!!

Beautiful washy ride cymbal,open tom sounds that actually ring,kick drum without padding.
Even the bassist can bring in his beautiful double bass and no guitar lead in sight.
The trumpet,saxaphone and piano=just beautiful instruments when you hear them in their purist form.

I've bought Time out by Brubeck ,Mingus Ah Um,A Love Supreme by Trane,and 3 cds of Miles A Kind Of Blue lol and these recordings are mind blowing.

They blow anything done today ,right out of the water.

I know they have been remixed but the quality of the original recordings is so good for them to get that kind of quality at the mastering stage.

Makes me wish I was walking round New York City in the early days with a suit on.

The coolest music and the most soothing on the planet.

Jazz of that era is like having one drink.

Takes all the stress away.

When it comes to prog metal or what ever modern prog is,I think Patton was the only one with something to say with Mr.Bungle.

Disco Volanti is fantastic and funny too.

Something the old 70s prog had,some Monty Python humour.

Not some nerds playing polyrythms.

DarrenMcMaster-Smith said:

Doesn't sound musical to me.
I don't care how you cut it.
When I hear the drummer playing that ,I forget the music and then hear the drummer instead of focussing on the whole.

Click to expand...

Except in most of the groups you just praised, you mean?

Not some nerds playing polyrythms.

Click to expand...

Like the (wonderful) Dave Brubeck quartet?

I agree getting heavily into displacing things before you can play and phrase the core stuff well, might be misguided, but just because a fringe minority take it to a hypertechnical extreme just for the sake of it (and I totally dig that it can be horrifically boring and unmusical) doesn't mean that sums up most of the cats out there who got serious about displacing their rhythms around the place.

You may as well complain that singles don't sound musical. In fact I can hardly think of a more abused aspect of drumming, that is used to show off and kills the groove.

Duckenheimer said:

Except in most of the groups you just praised, you mean?



Like the (wonderful) Dave Brubeck quartet?

I agree getting heavily into displacing things before you can play and phrase the core stuff well, might be misguided, but just because a fringe minority take it to a hypertechnical extreme just for the sake of it (and I totally dig that it can be horrifically boring and unmusical) doesn't mean that sums up most of the cats out there who got serious about displacing their rhythms around the place.

You may as well complain that singles don't sound musical. In fact I can hardly think of a more abused aspect of drumming, that is used to show off and kills the groove.

Click to expand...

Anyway,about Dave Brubeack,I can listen to that album and enjoy it but the drumming can get a bit technical and start making the music cold.

Jimmy Cobb makes my heart warm up inside.

The more techinical drumming gets,the more colder it imho.

I like to sit in that middle ground so anyone can enjoy it not just a few purists or for an ego boost.

I hear alot about "there's a lot of dumb humans in the world" or what I call class racism which I feel is a way bigger problem than ethnic racism.

Even people like Zappa who's music I like used to put dumb people in the rotten box.

But did they have a choice?

Being born that way no.

I honestly believe you get that from birth and noone earns anything.

It all comes from the genes.


The ABILITY to work hard comes from a strong mind to begin with.

You don't earn intelligence because a strong mind remembers.

Too depressed to pick up the sticks lol.

When you think about the world in it's purist form,you feel lost.

DarrenMcMaster-Smith said:

I hear alot about "there's a lot of dumb humans in the world" or what I call class racism which I feel is a way bigger problem than ethnic racism.

Even people like Zappa who's music I like used to put dumb people in the rotten box.

But did they have a choice?

Being born that way no.

I honestly believe you get that from birth and noone earns anything.

It all comes from the genes.


The ABILITY to work hard comes from a strong mind to begin with.

You don't earn intelligence because a strong mind remembers.

Click to expand...

Man...you sound like ... you need to see a doctor .
I read most of your previous posts,I won't be surprised if you kill yourself ...
So please, stay focused on the Topic : " Displacement "