HIP HOP

I'm often turned off by the lyrics; no matter how musically innovative. The lyrics are just a bit too much in the forefront a lot of the time for me to ignore.

But The Roots, Me-Shell Ndgeocello... these guys are the pinnacle of musical quality.

Although I like the old school guys more than the current batch, I still find it interesting that so many continue to diss this stuff with the same 30 year old insults. Sure you can like ot hate anything you want, but I think it's silly to continue to wear out the illiteracy angle when a lot of these guys are some of the most literate people I know.

I have no rouble with the literacy part. I'm sure they can sit down and write or collaborate with others to write lyrics, but when they sing it I can't understand it. Call it ebonics or whatever but they are not pronouncing the words they have written down. There are the hand gestures that are just comical. Left hand out if front with the fingers all curled but the thumb and little finger, or grabbing the crotch. Micorphone in the right hand holding it parallel to the ground. Everyone of them does this same thing. there is no variety. How am I supposed to like something I can't stand to watch or listen to. The original question was dyu all like it or ????? My answer is no.

Rubbish. Like in ANY criticism in ANY form of music; a bunch of them do, but this over assertive generalisation is still rubbish.

The best rappers (by definition, pretty much) have superb enunciation - strongly accented ebonics do tend to be present, sure. It is just communicated via a different dialect than you are used to.
 
First off a little grammar would be nice. I literally spent 4 minutes trying to figure out what your post said when it should have taken 4 seconds

^^^ Lacks street skills.

:D

Secondly, rap and hip hop have their place, and the world of drumming is not one of them.

?uestlove, Tony Royster Jr, Zoro etc would disagree with you... And of course the millions of listeners and drummers that they inspire.

And even in the machine driven side, we're talking several decades of focused experimentation on rhythm and beat.

On second thought they have no place. I can't believe people listen to that...

Actually, they have a place - on my ipod.
 
Metal is incredibly diverse, I doubt your idea or knowledge of the subject covers a lot of it, there is stuff within the metal spectrum that is also within the jazz spectrum, the whole genre is rife with avant-garde and diverse influences, that is where so many of the arguments stem from.

You mentioned not pigeon-holing things, but then completely contradicted yourself by pigeon-holing metal lovers. A lot of metal guys do not care what the jazz crowd think, and listen to/like jazz. Some care, but there are jazz musicians who are under the impression metal is nothing but mindless noise and promotes hatred and violence. Plenty of metal musicians also play traditional styles of jazz or classical, I know a cellist from the Adelaide Symphony Orchestra who plays in a doom/death band.

I don't think metal is self-destructive at all, some metal-heads/bands/artists are, obviously when some people are playing with fire, pouring out emotions, they're going to get burnt, it is the same with any music, or even film, that plays heavily on intensity.

A lot of metal is very progressive, free-thinking and full of musical open-mindedness. I'm repeating myself with this second example, but the violinist of local Melbourne metal band Ne Obliviscaris has a Bachelor of Honours in Performance Music and recently spent time with Jean-Luc Ponty when he was in Australia.

I think you'll find stereotyping all metal fans a mistake, if anything, I'm a testament to that, I listen to a lot of different music in any given day, including some very heavy metal and some quite mild jazz and post rock. I was playing A Silver Mt. Zion yesterday, along with Miles Davis, Chet Baker and Isahn (the solo project of the frontman from Emperor, a very big name in the Norwegian black metal scene).

The root of all this was me trying to make a point that not all Hip Hop is what you hear on the radio and not all Metal is like what you are exposed to.
Actually had I said pigeonhole things your rant may have gone somewhere.

However, I actually said I've always found it amazing how their hardcore aficianados pigeonhole the genres with the same ferocity of the jazz aficiandos.

If you study that comment a little harder than you did the first time you'll see I'm NOT saying all metal anything. The word all was your insertion not mine.

Also understand that I never make a comment on this forum that I don't either investigate or know something about first. Your assumptive opening comments about what you believe I know or don't know was poor tact and simply misinformed. Of course I know metal is diverse. My discussion revolved around the behavior of pigeoholers. Interestingly you rarely see this kind of pigeonholing in classical music and it's one of the reasons their fans don't come off so badly on the Internet in much the way of the jazz and metal aficianados. For example you don't see impressionists questioning the authenticity of Haydn classicists or try to determine if The Three Tenors are the real deal or just a poppy adaptation. It's just classical music...period.

Come on Frost...you're better than this. You know as well as I do that hardcore (meaning behavior not genre specific) metal aficianados are the most vocal and demonstrative proponents of metal... and like the goofy jazz aficianados are bad for business.
 
You know as well as I do that hardcore (meaning behavior not genre specific) metal aficianados are the most vocal and demonstrative proponents of metal... and are bad for business.
I - as wellas alot of people I know are pretty hard-core metal fans (as well as a "hardcore metal" fans) and we don't get all elitist or pigeon hole bands.
Yes, we call Municipal Waste "Thrash metal" and Napalm Death "Grind" but that because they are!

I think you're mistaking the "elitist yet loudest" minority for the "true fan base" majority.
 
the mindsets of jazz and metal lover was what I meant by stereotyping, to imply there is a certain mindset to applies to metal lovers. That was the core of my "rant".

By things I meant your comment on learning from the jazz crowd, who stereotype and cripple the genre, I'll watch my wording in future.

I agree with that point, my original post which sparked all of this was display my distaste for blanket statements such as, I dislike metal, as metal means a lot of things, and it's quite possible you do dislike most metal, but that doesn't mean you wont hear something you like.

You mentioned hardcore aficionados in a conversation about metal, I presume you mean metal aficionados, as it is a common mistake people make.

Hardcore isn't metal, by hardcore I believe you mean the genre (often confused with metal) not a hardcore fan, in the sense of the word, like a hardcore sports fan. I think you understand where I made that mistake.

I know they are bad for business and give metal a bad name, I do not disagree with you on this.

Yet another misunderstanding.


Actually had I said pigeonhole things your rant may have gone somewhere.

However, I actually said I've always found it amazing how their hardcore aficianados pigeonhole the genres with the same ferocity of the jazz aficiandos.

If you study that comment a little harder than you did the first time you'll see I'm NOT saying all metal anything. The word all was your insertion not mine.

Also understand that I never make a comment on this forum that I don't either investigate or know something about first. Your assumptive opening comments about what you believe I know or don't know was poor tact and simply misinformed. Of course I know metal is diverse. My discussion revolved around the behavior of pigeoholers. Interestingly you rarely see this kind of pigeonholing in classical music and it's one of the reasons their fans don't come off so badly on the Internet in much the way of the jazz and metal aficianados. For example you don't see impressionists questioning the authenticity of Haydn classicists or try to determine if The Three Tenors are the real deal or just a poppy adaptation. It's just classical music...period.

Come on Frost...you're better than this. You know as well as I do that hardcore (meaning behavior not genre specific) metal aficianados are the most vocal and demonstrative proponents of metal... and like the goofy jazz aficianados are bad for business.
 
Last edited:
Someone I used to know got called "the leading authority in metal"
We called him "an elitist prick".

I just gave my personal opinion on a band.

And that is what counts obviously. Just because you don't find them heavy, does not mean that others do not.

The people who call Linkin Park "abrasive" usually think Nothing Else Matters is the heaviest Metallica get to.
A lot of people think Linkin Park are shit.

I agree, on the point of Linkin Park being shit, but that doesn't mean that some music that is considered metal is not accessible to ears that hard commercial rock, whether it be Linkin Park, Skillet, System Of A Down, Disturbed or any other band along that vein, is not.

You mentioned a ton of death metal bands in your first reply to me, then you mentioned Pantera.
I have no idea who you are or how your mind works or your background in heavy music so I assumed you were classing Pantera in with Morbid Angel.

Your original post to me was,

"Industrial is heavier than metal, it's designed to be.
I haven't heard any mainstream rock that's heavier than Morbid Angel, Vader, Berzerker... tho'"

To which I responded, not all metal is death metal, as a blanket statement to make the point that some metal is easier to listen to then the bands you mentioned,

To which I followed by saying, after your sarcasm at my response, that "there are different degrees of heaviness" and that a lot of metal is vastly different to say, Pantera or Morbid Angel (who are quite different themselves, if you want to go into pedantics), which is why I dislike people, people being the post I responded to before you confronted me, pigeon-holing it. Not all metal is heavy to all ears, your belief Sunn are not (heavy "to a metalhead") is proof of that.


Thanks, I mean this in the nicest way when I say "you've just tried to teach me to
suck eggs".

I made that comment in order to try bring the conversation back to my original point, which was that I dislike the blanket statements like, I dislike metal, because metal is a very diverse thing.
 
Your rants are too much now Frost... I'll take a raincheck on this:


You mentioned hardcore aficionados in a conversation about metal, I presume you mean metal aficionados, as it is a common mistake people make.

Hardcore isn't metal, by hardcore I believe you mean the genre (often confused with metal) not a hardcore fan, in the sense of the word, like a hardcore sports fan. I think you understand where I made that mistake.
mattsmith meant "hardcore" as in 100% or nothing... More or less why the Genre's called hardcore.

And you're right, it isn't metal, it's punk but there is hardcore metal which is crossover.
 
Your rants are too much now Frost... I'll take a raincheck on this:



mattsmith meant "hardcore" as in 100% or nothing... More or less why the Genre's called hardcore.

And you're right, it isn't metal, it's punk but there is hardcore metal which is crossover.

I understand that now, and I'm sorry if I offended him.

You can take a raincheck, but honestly, I never wanted to argue and would prefer if we didn't, really it's over nothing.
 
I - as wellas alot of people I know are pretty hard-core metal fans (as well as a "hardcore metal" fans) and we don't get all elitist or pigeon hole bands.
Yes, we call Municipal Waste "Thrash metal" and Napalm Death "Grind" but that because they are!

I think you're mistaking the "elitist yet loudest" minority for the "true fan base" majority.

He is referring to the millions of posts on youtube that follow most metal videos with people going back and forth calling each other names because they disagree about which exact genre said video is in, and further name calling over if said video is any good.

It may only be a minority of teenage e-thugs who don't represent the majority, but that doesn't change his point that it happens.

But seriously, you and Frost are doing it now, going back and forth over what band fits into what mico-sub-genre. And using terms like "because they are." Seriously, what does it matter? It's a description of how one band sounds relative to another, it's not a term that DEFINES the band once and for all.

And it's all relative.

If one only listens to light classical music, or traditional country, Linkin Park might as well be extreme metal.

Like back in the 80's and Poison always got lumped into the metal scene, even though their is nothing remotely metal about them. But compared to Duran Duran, MTV figured they were. Motorhead is considered one of the godfathers of metal, yet Lemmy himself has said over and over again Motorhead is just a rock and roll band and he doesn't see his band as metal at all. It just depends on where you're coming from.

When I was a kid, Ozzy was considered pretty extreme. Now he's mild classic rock that my 4 year old listens too. Again, it's all relative.
 
A few great documentaries to watch for you real fans.

Scratch - http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7085594575841814301#
One of the quintessential docs about hip hop in my opinion. You see a lot of old school hip hop history with the likes of Bamabaataa and others.

Beat Diggin - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPYEvx-pNMo
This'll flat out just make you appreciate vinyl records again. Now these cats LISTEN to music.

Good Copy, Bad Copy - http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4323661317653995812#
It's more about piracy, but it has a large and really good segment with Danger Mouse (of Gnarls Barkley) who did a mash-up mixtape of Jay Z's Black Album and The Beatles White Album, and ultimately got in a lot of trouble even though he intentionally made no money from it. It kind of tackles the issue of sampling.
 
He is referring to the millions of posts on youtube that follow most metal videos with people going back and forth calling each other names because they disagree about which exact genre said video is in, and further name calling over if said video is any good.

It may only be a minority of teenage e-thugs who don't represent the majority, but that doesn't change his point that it happens.

But seriously, you and Frost are doing it now, going back and forth over what band fits into what mico-sub-genre. And using terms like "because they are." Seriously, what does it matter? It's a description of how one band sounds relative to another, it's not a term that DEFINES the band once and for all.

And it's all relative.

If one only listens to light classical music, or traditional country, Linkin Park might as well be extreme metal.

Like back in the 80's and Poison always got lumped into the metal scene, even though their is nothing remotely metal about them. But compared to Duran Duran, MTV figured they were. Motorhead is considered one of the godfathers of metal, yet Lemmy himself has said over and over again Motorhead is just a rock and roll band and he doesn't see his band as metal at all. It just depends on where you're coming from.

When I was a kid, Ozzy was considered pretty extreme. Now he's mild classic rock that my 4 year old listens too. Again, it's all relative.

These are my thoughts exactly.

All I was trying to do was point out the jazz aficianado analogy to warn metal's fan base that this particular direction is a recipe for failure. In fact I can go to allaboutjazz forum right now and see the same conversation a thousand times. Just insert the word metal with jazz. You can even see where the jazz aficianado claims you probably don't know this and this as a way of marginalizing your comments. Sorry---already been there done that.

Also--- I specifically stated meaning behavior not genre specific. I don't think I could be more clear than that. And at least in my case, I'm rarely insulted. But after a time it's easy to be irritated with sloppy comprehension issues. I mean seriously, do we need to be like those other forums where you post pictures with stupid captions to make your entirely obvious point?

But apparently a certain base wants to keep doing what they're doing. So all I'm going to say is knock yourself out while I continue to respect those drummers.
 
I dislike hip hop and rap because in some ways it marginalized drummers and other musicians. In the 60's/70's there was such a big soul/blues/funk movement in the black music industry. I loved groups like Sly and the Family Stone, Jackson 5, Earth Wind and Fire, etc. Not to mention the rest of MoTown, who developed some of the best musicians of that era Then it seemed to vanish almost overnight with the advent of hip hop/rap.

Aside from the music itself, which I find monotonic and boring, the lyrics are offensive and have done nothing to improve the socioeconomic conditions of minority groups (except for the artists themselves). In many ways, this music legitimizes and glorifies the dysfunctional world these people live in.
 
I dislike hip hop and rap because in some ways it marginalized drummers and other musicians. In the 60's/70's there was such a big soul/blues/funk movement in the black music industry. I loved groups like Sly and the Family Stone, Jackson 5, Earth Wind and Fire, etc. Not to mention the rest of MoTown, who developed some of the best musicians of that era Then it seemed to vanish almost overnight with the advent of hip hop/rap.

Aside from the music itself, which I find monotonic and boring, the lyrics are offensive and have done nothing to improve the socioeconomic conditions of minority groups (except for the artists themselves). In many ways, this music legitimizes and glorifies the dysfunctional world these people live in.

There is soooooo much wrong with these statements I don't even know where to begin. As a matter of fact I'm going to leave it at that. Stay naive dude. I ain't mad atcha', but ain't glad atcha' neitha'.
 
There is soooooo much wrong with these statements I don't even know where to begin. As a matter of fact I'm going to leave it at that. Stay naive dude. I ain't mad atcha', but ain't glad atcha' neitha'.

Everyone has an opinion - I ain't shy about giving mine. I'm not expecting people to agree.
 
Gangstarr has positive messages. Tons o gunz is about gun violence and why it should stop. Tribe called quest! Positive lyrics.

people tend to lump all rap into a ganster rap genre. They were exposed to it via the media, it might be the only rap they are familiar with.

Despite popular opinion, a lot of "concious" rap pushes an anti negative approach. A lot of rappers speak out on this. a lot of rappers speak out on how empty this approach might be, because they aren't making people think.

Common , mos def, talib kwali, all these rappers say positive things. A lot of rappers hold intelligence as something that should be cherished, and nurtured.

Do i expect people that don't like hip hop to seek this type of hip hop out to validate my point?
No.

It is just being , legitamately ignorant of the culture/music.

That isn't aimed at anyone in particular, just a fact. People that don't know or like Metal think metalheads all worship the devil, kill babies, and are extremely aggressive all the time.

I'm not. I like metal.

Hip hop is a genre of music, it doesn't make you bad for not being into it, it makes you...you.
 
Gangstarr has positive messages. Tons o gunz is about gun violence and why it should stop. Tribe called quest! Positive lyrics.

people tend to lump all rap into a ganster rap genre. They were exposed to it via the media, it might be the only rap they are familiar with.

Despite popular opinion, a lot of "concious" rap pushes an anti negative approach. A lot of rappers speak out on this. a lot of rappers speak out on how empty this approach might be, because they aren't making people think.

Common , mos def, talib kwali, all these rappers say positive things. A lot of rappers hold intelligence as something that should be cherished, and nurtured.

Do i expect people that don't like hip hop to seek this type of hip hop out to validate my point?
No.

It is just being , legitamately ignorant of the culture/music.

That isn't aimed at anyone in particular, just a fact. People that don't know or like Metal think metalheads all worship the devil, kill babies, and are extremely aggressive all the time.

I'm not. I like metal.

Hip hop is a genre of music, it doesn't make you bad for not being into it, it makes you...you.

I apologize for overgeneralizing - I should know better. There is even Christian hip-hop and rap, that has positive messages. It's not my cup of tea, but if it reaches people, all the more power to them. And as someone pointed out, there are plenty of bad messages in rock music.

My main point (and again it is just an opinion) was really that hip hop and rap, just like disco, has had a negative impact on popular music in general. I know my parent's generation probably said the same thing when Elvis and then the Beatles came into popularity, because they were used to big band music. Their parent's probably said the same thing about big band music.

I am not saying that hip hop and rap artists are not talented, because they obviously are. I'm saying that the form of music does not utilize the instruments that I enjoy hearing. Where is the bass player, the piano player or the drummer? Where are the guitar licks? I can hear all those in jazz, rock, (some) metal, big band, and even some classical music.

This is not my only pet peeve about today's music. The over-synthesization of many of today's pop vocals also drives me crazy, along with extensive use of drum tracks.

But I guess I shouldn't be such a "purist" about these things. The Beatles were one of the pioneers of rock and roll, but they along with George Martin spent many hours in the studio adding and rearranging instruments and vocals - even recording some of them backwards and sped up, while adding all kinds of crazy special sound affects. Then again, Martin was a brilliant producer and composer, and added so many beautiful orchestral arrangements to their songs.
 
I apologize for overgeneralizing - I should know better. There is even Christian hip-hop and rap, that has positive messages. It's not my cup of tea, but if it reaches people, all the more power to them. And as someone pointed out, there are plenty of bad messages in rock music.

My main point (and again it is just an opinion) was really that hip hop and rap, just like disco, has had a negative impact on popular music in general. I know my parent's generation probably said the same thing when Elvis and then the Beatles came into popularity, because they were used to big band music. Their parent's probably said the same thing about big band music.

I am not saying that hip hop and rap artists are not talented, because they obviously are. I'm saying that the form of music does not utilize the instruments that I enjoy hearing. Where is the bass player, the piano player or the drummer? Where are the guitar licks? I can hear all those in jazz, rock, (some) metal, big band, and even some classical music.

This is not my only pet peeve about today's music. The over-synthesization of many of today's pop vocals also drives me crazy, along with extensive use of drum tracks.

But I guess I shouldn't be such a "purist" about these things. The Beatles were one of the pioneers of rock and roll, but they along with George Martin spent many hours in the studio adding and rearranging instruments and vocals - even recording some of them backwards and sped up, while adding all kinds of crazy special sound affects. Then again, Martin was a brilliant producer and composer, and added so many beautiful orchestral arrangements to their songs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D671znPDOCU

Mainly towards daredrummer who said that drums have no place in hip-hop. This is a Roots performance on Soulstage. ?uestlove and Captain Kirk (guitar player) absolutely killed it during this performance. The percussion pretty much carries the first 1:15 of the video.
 
Back
Top