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  #41  
Old 04-29-2013, 04:37 PM
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Default Re: Speaking of tuning....

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Originally Posted by abapicaltaenia View Post
I would try throwing half a moongel on each tom and see if he likes that.
Well, this was pre-moongel days (at least, I'd never heard of it!) lol. Somehow, I don't think half a moongel would have been enough.

Dampening has a different effect than tuning, right? I remember trying Evans Hydraulic heads on my old Rogers kit in the late 70's. I tuned fairly high even then. The hydraulic heads affected the attack and timbre of the sound, but those drums still rang an amazingly long time.
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  #42  
Old 04-29-2013, 05:02 PM
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Default Re: Speaking of tuning....

Yeah. Different effects, but maybe the lack of sustain would make him perceive the initial attack as louder? I'm not sure, though.
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  #43  
Old 04-30-2013, 06:04 PM
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Default Re: Speaking of tuning....

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Originally Posted by bobdadruma View Post
How high is Jazz Tuning?
I will use Drum Dial readings as an example.
My tom reso's and batters wind up at about 78 to 80.
For Rock they would be at about 72 to 75.
Snare batter at 88 to 90. Snare reso about 80 to 82.
Bass drum lugs wind up about 1 to 1 1/2 turn above wrinkle.

Just tune like Bonham did and you have it down.
I am in total agreement about our perception from the throne so I have learned to ignore it.
I am surprised at how high you tuned the toms up but it obviously works. I was wondering if the recording was close miked as well since generally distance does add depth.
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  #44  
Old 04-30-2013, 06:28 PM
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Default Re: Speaking of tuning....

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Larry...no question that I like how your toms sound in the recording you posted.

What I don't know is how tuning for maximum resonance will blend with hard rock?

The other question.....maximum resonance tuning versus batter head tensioned very tight would produce two different results? I think this makes sense, no?

I know a lot of us just mic our kicks for live playing so low tuned toms are probably not heard well.

Then we have to consider if the same kit that's played live is also played for band practice do we readjust for lower tuning at band practice? I would think so, don't you think?
The thing is, I consider these jazz tunings. But they sound closer to rock toms than jazz toms wouldn't you say? Which to me means that jazz toms are cranked even tighter than what I consider "jazz tunings".

Maximum resonance vs batter tuned tight...hmm. I have my batter at what I consider tight and this drum has more resonance out front. When I tune it lower it sounds better to me..it has more resonance at the throne, but all that good tone gets lost out front, so the question is confusing to me. At a gig, don't tune for yourself, tune tighter than you would think for the audience is my new rule of thumb. Tuning for band practice...I guess if your practice space is 15 x 15 then a lower tuning would be fine. But when you play a room that is a hundred feet deep, from what I just learned...crank yer toms.



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Originally Posted by Bruce M. Thomson View Post
I am in total agreement about our perception from the throne so I have learned to ignore it.
I am surprised at how high you tuned the toms up but it obviously works. I was wondering if the recording was close miked as well since generally distance does add depth.
No close micing on the drums. No micing whatsoever on the drums. I recorded with a handheld device. It's just a capture, no fancy recording whatsoever. And I agree, you have to kind of ignore how the toms sound at the throne, because they are not going to sound as good to the drummer tuned tight. Like I said, I thought they sounded high and choked at the throne, basically opposite of what was captured. That's why the recording surprised me, in a good way, and I had to share.

If the ms are miced...hey IMO you can tune low and muffle even. Different circumstances. But unmiced? Tight tom tuning is the way forward for me.
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  #45  
Old 04-30-2013, 07:02 PM
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Default Re: Speaking of tuning....

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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
Don't be silly, there is only one jazz tuning, just as there is only one form of acceptable jazz! Oh, & don't even think of playing jazz, or indeed daring to use "jazz tuning", unless you have an original round badge Gretsch :)
I will never conform to these rules! I often play jazz... many different types of jazz... with "rock tuning"... on a Sonor kit! Oh, the horror! :D

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Pearl Session Custom (maple) toms, the ones in my avi.
Single ply clear G1's top and bottom
Jazz tunings, although it doesn't sound like it.
No drum mics.
Miced from about 15 feet away and off to the side, not ideal, but it sounds OK.
All right, thanks for the sound clip. This is very helpful for when I'll start gigging with my band. If unmiced, I'll definitely have to bump the toms at least two full notes. Are you playing a 12" and a 16"? Hearing D from the rack tom and G from the 16", which is crazy high, "jazz tuning" indeed, but it sounds great! Are you hearing the same fundamental notes behind the kit as well? I can just imagine the "boing" you must be hearing. I've tuned my 12" in that range before and struck in the middle it made a short, choked, little measily "bum". Played closer to the edges however, it was nice and resonant, very suitable for "jazzy" sounding fills. And I guess it did sound nice in front of the kit.

If I recall correctly you used to tune your drum heads an entire octave apart, is that right?
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  #46  
Old 04-30-2013, 07:14 PM
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Default Re: Speaking of tuning....

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Originally Posted by Sjogras View Post
Are you playing a 12" and a 16"? Hearing D from the rack tom and G from the 16", which is crazy high, "jazz tuning" indeed, but it sounds great! Are you hearing the same fundamental notes behind the kit as well? I can just imagine the "boing" you must be hearing.

If I recall correctly you used to tune your drum heads an entire octave apart, is that right?
I do have a 10 inch tom, but I am not playing it on the parts where the toms stick out. So you are hearing a 12 followed by a 16. I don't hear boing, I hate that tone, but I do hear a short, almost choked, fairly high note that isn't very satisfying from the throne TBH. Boing, from my experiences, happens when the reso is tuned lower than the batter. No I can't pick up the fundamental from behind the throne, it sounds almost bad there. But with results like these out front, I don't need to be satisfied from the throne, as long as I have the knowledge that it's awesome out front.

And yes my tom heads were tuned an entire octave apart...before this recording. On this recording I tightened up the batter close to where the reso is. I didn't tighten my reso anymore than it already was, as it already was pretty tight. Now I will be tuning the batter the same as the reso so I can get this full tone out front.

The thick shelled Pearl toms still sound tubby to me, but the tone is so much better tuned tight rather than just medium tight. Like a night and day difference, from out front.
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  #47  
Old 04-30-2013, 07:21 PM
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Default Re: Speaking of tuning....

Been following the conversation but only just now hearing the recording. I love that tom sound. Tuning that tight also gives a nice head response, but yeah, from the driver's seat, a whole nuther ball game.

Great playing, too, by the way. That some seriously groovy playing.
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  #48  
Old 04-30-2013, 07:26 PM
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Default Re: Speaking of tuning....

you sound killer uncle Lar

the tone and the groove
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  #49  
Old 04-30-2013, 08:14 PM
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Default Re: Speaking of tuning....

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you sound killer uncle Lar

the tone and the groove

Thanks Ant, that means a lot man.. Here's my favorite song of that night. Not too much tom work here, a little...You can hear the 10 inch tom right at the drum pickup. I just wanted to share this tune because I love the groove. I haven't posted any songs in about 6 months so here's my bi annual song posts.
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File Type: mp3 i dont need no doctor.mp3 (4.66 MB, 102 views)
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  #50  
Old 04-30-2013, 08:31 PM
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Default Re: Speaking of tuning....

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Thanks Ant, that means a lot man.. Here's my favorite song of that night. Not too much tom work here, a little...You can hear the 10 inch tom right at the drum pickup. I just wanted to share this tune because I love the groove. I haven't posted any songs in about 6 months so here's my bi annual song posts.
That sounded great, Lar. You're right, that tom does sound better a bit cranked up. Your drums sound like drums!
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  #51  
Old 04-30-2013, 11:10 PM
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Default Re: Speaking of tuning....

Ahh! Glad to see someone else "gets it".

That higher tuning is where it's at. If we could only get those folks with a roll of duct tape on their toms to understand this.

I remember when I first started playing at my church (had been playing drumns for a few years...) I spent some time messing with the kit and everyone in the band remarked how much better it sounded and asked what I did. I told them all I did was take the rings off and tuned the toms up to where they sang.

That driver's seat POV is nothing like what everyone hears.
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  #52  
Old 05-01-2013, 12:15 AM
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Default Re: Speaking of tuning....

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Thanks Ant, that means a lot man.. Here's my favorite song of that night. Not too much tom work here, a little...You can hear the 10 inch tom right at the drum pickup. I just wanted to share this tune because I love the groove. I haven't posted any songs in about 6 months so here's my bi annual song posts.
Huge groove there Larry. Love your shuffle with liberal barks ;) Picked up on the 10" tom too = nice & tuneful. Don't you just love 10" toms! :) I know I do = my favourite.
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  #53  
Old 05-01-2013, 12:39 AM
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Default Re: Speaking of tuning....

Nice song and nice playing, as always, Larry. The consummate pro.
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  #54  
Old 05-01-2013, 12:49 AM
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Default Re: Speaking of tuning....

I just got to listen to the MP3's now at home.

Nice playing, lar!

Solid stuff. Love those toms.
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  #55  
Old 05-01-2013, 02:14 AM
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Default Re: Speaking of tuning....

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Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
That sounded great, Lar. You're right, that tom does sound better a bit cranked up. Your drums sound like drums!
Wow thanks Bo!

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Originally Posted by brady View Post
Ahh! Glad to see someone else "gets it".

That higher tuning is where it's at. If we could only get those folks with a roll of duct tape on their toms to understand this.

I remember when I first started playing at my church (had been playing drumns for a few years...) I spent some time messing with the kit and everyone in the band remarked how much better it sounded and asked what I did. I told them all I did was take the rings off and tuned the toms up to where they sang.

That driver's seat POV is nothing like what everyone hears.
And another benefit...I just tuned my studio set that way...it makes double strokes on my toms SO much easier. I love little discoveries like this!

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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
Huge groove there Larry. Love your shuffle with liberal barks ;) Picked up on the 10" tom too = nice & tuneful. Don't you just love 10" toms! :) I know I do = my favourite.
Thanks my soon to be met friend. I love the 10 inch tom too, but now the love for the other toms will increase. Yea!

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Originally Posted by 8Mile View Post
Nice song and nice playing, as always, Larry. The consummate pro.
They like me. They really like me!
Constipated semi pro at best Lar lol.

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Originally Posted by brady View Post
I just got to listen to the MP3's now at home.

Nice playing, lar!

Solid stuff. Love those toms.
Well I'm chuffed to the bollocks. Not the dogs bollocks, I just learned that from an Englishwoman customer of mine.

Thanks Brady. Love playing the halftime feel of that last tune with all the ghosts.
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  #56  
Old 05-02-2013, 01:19 PM
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Default Re: Speaking of tuning....

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I should know this but don't. I will get an answer for you next time I see him in 2 weeks, sorry.
thanks Lar.

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  #57  
Old 05-02-2013, 01:37 PM
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Default Re: Speaking of tuning....

Larry, very nice playing (I don't need no doctor) Great groove, great balance, fills and the drums sound great too. Due to my firewall here at work I can't get the Youtube stuff. Will check that out later at home.
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  #58  
Old 05-02-2013, 03:50 PM
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Larry, very nice playing (I don't need no doctor) Great groove, great balance, fills and the drums sound great too. Due to my firewall here at work I can't get the Youtube stuff. Will check that out later at home.
There is no YT stuff. 2 songs, audio only, thats it. And thanks for listening and the nice words 2b.
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  #59  
Old 05-02-2013, 03:55 PM
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Default Re: Speaking of tuning....

just got a chance to listen to that second track.

killin it Larry

I'll be in the Philly area later this month to record.....maybe we can grab a beer
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  #60  
Old 05-02-2013, 04:28 PM
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Default Re: Speaking of tuning....

Thanks man. PM'd you. If you're near Philly, I don't want to miss the opportunity to meet. Hopefully that will line up.
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  #61  
Old 05-02-2013, 04:29 PM
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Default Re: Speaking of tuning....

Great playing Larry! Haven't been following this thread, but I gave a listen to the tunes, and I'm really feeling those tom sounds!

I love The Weight, an all-time great song, and ya'll made it sound really good...love the harmonies. You tore it up on I Don't Need No Doctor, I really enjoyed the drumming! Very crisp, great shuffle feel, and wonderful hi-hat and snare work, not to mention your kick + crash accents. Thanks for sharing that...
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  #62  
Old 05-02-2013, 04:59 PM
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Thanks StickIt....I love "The Weight" too. Not crazy about the reggae feel the bandleader likes to throw in on the one verse, but what a great great song. Levon. What a great musician.

Doctor is the only half time shuffle I play in any of my bands, so it's a personal favorite every time he starts that tune. I basically imply the "Roesanna" beat with Doctor without the Bo Diddley kick pattern. There's never any set lists with this band. I never know what song will be picked until the first few notes. He starts every song off. Keeps you on your toes.

If you ever heard Billy Joel's song "The Entertainer"...my bandleader.... he's the guy playing the acoustic guitar on that track. He recorded and toured with Billy for his first 3 albums. I'm very fortunate to be playing with him. There's also YouTube vids of him playing onstage with Eric Burdon in the 80's. And I get to play with him, yea. I feel extremely lucky. He's the best musician I personally know. The guy goes beyond licks...to be able to communicate his feelings on the guitar.
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  #63  
Old 05-03-2013, 07:21 AM
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Default Re: Speaking of tuning....

Listening to that recording in my project studio the toms sound on the low side. I would have guessed a well tuned 13 and a 16. I'm not sure what you're used to, but I could see where tuned lower than that, they would sound pretty dead in the room. I believe that Bonham's drums are tuned much higher as he gets similar pitches from larger drums.

I guess I spend too much time with Gospel Chop folks with little toms cranked up for articulation.

edit, heard the second clip and that sound like a 10. Love the groove too. I had a guitarist/singer friend who wanted to do a similar (but slower thing) with Drift Away. He wasn't sure how to describe it other than calling it a triplet shuffle.
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  #64  
Old 05-03-2013, 12:56 PM
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Default Re: Speaking of tuning....

There is no album version on YT but the song "Whatever it is" by Zac Brown Band has the tom notes that I aspire to tune to and I think, if you know this band (who is absolutely killer BTW- musicianship and song writing + live performances) and song, you will agree.

I think that for each of the 3 years of my drumming that have gone by, I have turned my heads up about 1/4 turn haha.

Have you experimented with turning your resos up and leaving the batters where they are now? Seems like it might be worth it to wake those shells up a bit more?
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  #65  
Old 05-03-2013, 06:56 PM
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Have you experimented with turning your resos up and leaving the batters where they are now? Seems like it might be worth it to wake those shells up a bit more?
Well the resos already were quite tight, about 83 on the Drum dial if you are familiar. That's the only way I know how to relate how tight they are. I used to have the batters at about 75. So for these recordings, I just tightened up the batter to what I guess to be about the same as the resos, possibly a little less. I thought the shells woke up just fine on these recordings, compared to what they were prior. In other words, I like how they sound now and don't think I need to go any tighter. They sound like poo from the throne, but with a tone like this out front. I can happily deal with that. Hey, it's not like it's the best tone in the world out front, I still think Pearls sound a little tubby, but it's night and day compared to how I used to tune them.
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  #66  
Old 05-03-2013, 08:35 PM
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Default Re: Speaking of tuning....

Yeah, nice tom sounds indeed on "The Weight", but it's not only the tuning, the type of sticks and the drummer's feel and touch also plays a major part on the perceived sound, cool song and cool playing...

... killer shuffle feel on "don't need", now there's a fine simple technical groove Larry :)

As your signature says... "It's not what you play, as much as how you play it."
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  #67  
Old 05-03-2013, 08:47 PM
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Default Re: Speaking of tuning....

Why thank you Henri. On "The Weight"...the part where you hear the toms really well, I am smacking them harder than usual, only because in that spot, it's needed.

A simple technical groove? Isn't that like saying government intelligence?
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Old 05-04-2013, 01:47 AM
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Wonder if you could have the best of both worlds? Arent you curious after having such a major revelation? You could have another!
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  #69  
Old 05-04-2013, 09:27 AM
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Have you experimented with turning your resos up and leaving the batters where they are now? Seems like it might be worth it to wake those shells up a bit more?
A most valid option. That can work really well, but I don't think it works well when one octave apart, it seems like a choked version of tuning both heads to the same pitch. Depends on the shell though TBH.

Essentially, the further apart you tune the batter & reso, the less head sustain you get. There are exceptions to that very general rule, but it's about right. Non of that matters unmic'd live, as head sustain is utterly lost in all but the quietest of music forms. many tuning guides refer to "increased resonance" when describing tuning choices. That's wrong, as they're referring to head sustain. Finding the most resonant combination is all to do with opening the shell up & exciting it to the point it delivers most tone. Take Larry's recording as an example. You're only hearing the first 1-2 seconds of the drum's voice. That's the most important part, & the part that translates to the listener. This is where a highly resonant shell comes into it's own. It suffers a slight loss of absolute volume compared to a thick shell, but it puts body into the voice where it's needed most.
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Old 05-04-2013, 09:45 AM
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TBH, I'm not sure what Toolate is trying to get me to do. Tune up my resos more? I'm kinda happy with the tone where they are. You think I should go higher? I'll try it if that's what you're talking about. I mean they still sounded pretty deep on the recording, like they could go up even more.
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Old 05-04-2013, 09:18 PM
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Default Re: Speaking of tuning....

I guess my thought was that you started out by saying that you tuned your resonant heads one octave higher than the batter heads. You then had a major epiphany when you tuned your batter heads up to be about the same tension as your reso heads

So, to me, if you'd like your batters tuned one octave above your resonant heads before, the next logical step is to try that same arrangement again starting with The tension you have on your batters and raising your resident heads to about one octave difference like you used to.

Might just choke out but to me it seems like it would be worth a try to at least hear what it sounds like.
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Old 05-04-2013, 10:17 PM
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I guess my thought was that you started out by saying that you tuned your resonant heads one octave higher than the batter heads. You then had a major epiphany when you tuned your batter heads up to be about the same tension as your reso heads

So, to me, if you'd like your batters tuned one octave above your resonant heads before, the next logical step is to try that same arrangement again starting with The tension you have on your batters and raising your resident heads to about one octave difference like you used to.

Might just choke out but to me it seems like it would be worth a try to at least hear what it sounds like.
Might be a worthwhile experiment, but think the real benefit to the sound out front is the added head sustain from both heads being similar pitch, combined with the pitch being high enough to cut through the mix and not compete for frequency space. In my experience, when you tighten the resos higher than the batters, sustain drops off, which can sound great to the drummer and a close mic, but I think it would work against the result Larry has achieved here.

That's my feeling, but like I said, it might be worth an experiment.
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  #73  
Old 05-04-2013, 11:45 PM
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Default Re: Speaking of tuning....

I think if I take the resos up an octave above where they are now...my first thought is that it would surely choke. 83 for a single ply head on a drum dial is pretty tight. Let's see if 75 to 83 is about an octaves difference then 91 should be the target reso tension if it's a linear relationship. Hmm. I could try it at home. I'm more inclined to think that tuned to the same note is the way to go at the tighter batter tensions. I don't want to choke.

The only way to really test it is to try it and record it in the same room.
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  #74  
Old 05-05-2013, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Toolate View Post
So, to me, if you'd like your batters tuned one octave above your resonant heads before, the next logical step is to try that same arrangement again starting with The tension you have on your batters and raising your resident heads to about one octave difference like you used to.
Are you being serious now? I imagine tuning those heads an octave higher than they already are now would possibly crack the shells. If not, switch the reso head for a 3mil head and you've got yourself a deep snare drum...

To me, there is absolutely no logical reason for even tuning the heads an octave apart, I'm thinking that Larry's drums project more now simply because the heads vibrate in unison.

Last edited by Sjogras; 05-06-2013 at 07:56 PM.
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Old 05-05-2013, 12:58 AM
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Default Re: Speaking of tuning....

Great playing, Larry, and indeed, an excellent tone from the toms! Seems the theory about this tuning in an unmic'd scenario is the way to go. Begs the question though: when the toms ARE close mic'd, would tuning to an acoustic tone that IS more pleasant from the driver's seat be better? (i.e. the mic would be picking up tone from the batter heads, which are kinda pointed toward the drummer's ears.) Larry, next time you're playing a gig where your toms are close mic'd, could you go back to your original tuning, record it with the same recorder but out in front of the PA, and post that? I really want to hear the A/B comparison.
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Old 05-05-2013, 01:48 AM
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Default Re: Speaking of tuning....

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Originally Posted by timmdrum View Post
Great playing, Larry, and indeed, an excellent tone from the toms! Seems the theory about this tuning in an unmic'd scenario is the way to go. Begs the question though: when the toms ARE close mic'd, would tuning to an acoustic tone that IS more pleasant from the driver's seat be better? (i.e. the mic would be picking up tone from the batter heads, which are kinda pointed toward the drummer's ears.) Larry, next time you're playing a gig where your toms are close mic'd, could you go back to your original tuning, record it with the same recorder but out in front of the PA, and post that? I really want to hear the A/B comparison.
I'm rarely miced. I don't have many gigs where I mic my own drums and put it through the PA, but lower batter tensions would be my first guess. You want the mics to hear what you do I would think. These higher tensions are strictly for unmiced in fairly spacious rooms.

It's relatively easy to get a nice drum sound when you have a PA. There are so many variables though. Each room is a unique sonic space and and the major variables must be considered to get the best tone for that particular room, whether miced or unmiced.
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Old 05-05-2013, 06:52 AM
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Default Re: Speaking of tuning....

I was just working out parts to Archie Bell's Tighten Up. I think the title may refer to the drummer. Listen to the shell tom on that song. It's likely a 12", at least the only video I could find of them doing it live on TV the drummer had a 12. There's no lack of resonance or sustain but the pitch is nearly as high as Larry's 10. Unless they used Gretschs on the recording, this was also most likely some mahogany/mystery wood shell as well, and it doesn't choke at that tuning. So I would think with his modern drums, Larry still has some room to go if he wants to. But I love the sound his 12 gets on that recording for that song. That fits the song perfectly.
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Old 05-05-2013, 01:30 PM
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Default Re: Speaking of tuning....

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
I think if I take the resos up an octave above where they are now...my first thought is that it would surely choke. 83 for a single ply head on a drum dial is pretty tight. Let's see if 75 to 83 is about an octaves difference then 91 should be the target reso tension if it's a linear relationship. Hmm. I could try it at home. I'm more inclined to think that tuned to the same note is the way to go at the tighter batter tensions. I don't want to choke.

The only way to really test it is to try it and record it in the same room.
I am no expert tuner but I think you said that you always tuned that way (batters 1 about octave up) and loved it so thought you might love it even more. 91 is ridiculously high on the dial though so would probably choke out (wasn't thinking of that before).
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Old 05-06-2013, 07:03 PM
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Default Re: Speaking of tuning....

Nice job Larry. I enjoyed the extended guitar solo as well..
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Old 05-07-2013, 05:02 PM
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Default Re: Speaking of tuning....

Ok, I have given this some thought. Since your 12" is tuned D in the sound clips you sent, and both heads were tuned the same, that means the heads were tuned slightly below C, like B+3/4 if you will. Which means that, initially, your batter head must have been tuned below even producing a pitch? When I tune my 12" (obviously the same thing with any 12" tom), the first distinguishable pitch is around D with an Evans g12.

Does your experience differ from mine here? Perhaps your 10mil single ply heads open up at a slightly lower pitch, but it shouldn't be that much difference. I'm assuming that behind the kit you were hearing a sharp attack due to the batter head tension, and a nice tone coming from the, I assume, perfectly tuned reso head. ;)

But there must be someone else here gigging unmiced? What's your experience? I haven't played a gig in years, it was probably 7-8 years ago in elementary school and I didn't have the slightest clue about tuning back then, someone else tuned the drums. But when I get back on the gigging train, I'm pretty damn sure I'll continue tuning the batter head just slightly lower than the reso.
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