Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

All us "serious" jazz musicians are all outsiders and crazy folks anyways not much interested in wider public acceptance as individuals or as ensemble players or for the music we love in general....speaking for myself and what i've seen and experienced. Part of the outsider's and jazz musicians code of order and ethics....:}.

Jazz is a very personal expression that touches you in a deep and special way at ANY age, no special handshake for membership is required. It can start at one place {tunes/standards} and as you dig deeper as your ears and emotions get more hungry for more personal creative expressions within the "jazz tree" can lead to "out jazz" {free improv} many times. Some may dig and do one or both or some other variation from the root tree in the mix...no judgements what you choose it all music. Whether you stay closer to the core of the family jazz tree {tunes/song forms/changes} in a more straight ahead swing based setting or it like to wander out on its many branches it's all interconnected in the greater scope to the mother jazz tree from my take on what I both like to listen to and record and perform since I do both since that's where my creative juices have directed me in a natural manner and way. Whether folks dig the stuff on the outer branches or closer to the inner trunk one over the other means nothing to the one living the music in the middle of the ever evolving personal jazz journey.

What is real jazz? well the answer to that that's gets very personal and close to home to some of us. With well over 3000 post here in my own personal way i've answered that question in some detail in the past from my personal perspective and life living reference point as a example. Many others have offered there own take on that question but many of those don't post much here anymore, only a very small handful still do. I covered it...others covered it from their own personal place and perspective on the subject when the question was asked before. Sometimes the clear direct answers from a jazz musician perspective to this question have led to some truly lively debates...... doesn't change in any way how the jazz musician plays, records and lives the music.

Bottom line the jazz outsiders in the trenches do it better in actions {playing the music} rather than any mere words can better express.

"What does jazz or what is real jazz really mean?" everyone has a different answer and take to that based on where they sit on the subject of the music in question in their own life.
 
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For those who haven't heard the tune, you can get a laugh out of these lyrics, as witty as a Pollyanna post.

I Agree With Pat Metheny
Richard Thompson

I agree with Pat Metheny
Kenny's talents are too teeny
He deserves the crap he's going to get
'Overdubbed himself on Louis
What a musical chop suey
Raised his head above the parapet

Now Louis Armstrong was the king
He practically invented swing
Hero of the twentieth century
'Did duets with many a fella
"Fatha" Hines, Bing, Hoagy, Ella
Strange he never thought of Kenny G

A meeting of great minds, how nice
Like Einstein and Sporty Spice
Digitally fused in an abortion
Oh, Kenny fans will doubtless rave
While Satchmo turns inside his grave
Soprano man's bit off more than his portion

Brainless pentatonic riffs
Display our Kenny's arcane gifts
But we don't care, his charms are so beguiling
He does play sharp, but let's be fair
He has such lovely crinkly hair
We hardly notice, we're too busy smiling

How does he hold those notes so long?
He must be a genius. Wrong!
He just has the mindlessness to do it
He makes Britney sound like scat
If this is jazz I'll eat my hat
An idle threat, I'll never have to chew it

So next time you're in a rendezvous
And Kenny's sound comes wafting through
Don't just wince, eliminate the cause
Rip the tape right off the muzak
Pull the plug, or steal a fuse, Jack
The whole room will drown you in applause

Yes, Kenny G has gone too far
The gloves are off, it's time to spar
Grab your hunting rifle, strap your colt on
It's open season on our Ken
Yet I await the moment when
We lay off him and start on Michael Bolton

Oh, I agree with Pat Metheny
Kenny's talents are too teeny
 
You get no argument from me. The one thing I would say is that I think the smooth jazz format became to constricted for jazz musicians to really see it as an opportunity to do anything except make money, which isn't of itself a bad thing. Why not write pop tunes or work on Wall Street is you want to make money.

But if you want to do large grandeur projects where you take 8-10-16 musicians out on the road, like Metheny has done, funding becomes a big issue. Christoph Eschenbach's or Michael Tilson Thomas conduct orchestras with 60+ people in them . .. puts a lot of people to work. The performance of certain types of music or to have certain types of aspirations in music necessitates a lot of cash flow. Those types of projects are not going to generate the per capita income of a successful punk rock trio like Green Day. There is a cultural advantage of major orchestras and prominent jazz ensembles. You have to argue that other wise why bother. Everyone could spend their lives listening to The Ramones. But much great music was not profitable in the life of its composer. So even though I argue that, I also know it to be true. And I know that stands in the way of your Libertarian ideology. So be it.

"Libertarian ideology?" I hate the Libertarians! Well, not hate as in "hate," you know, but theirs' is a philosophy of let the white rich people run everything and the rest of us can all go to hell.

Nope, no Libertarian ideology in this drummer.

Edit: I apologize for my brief political editorial.
 
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keep it simple, You asked the question "What Is Real Jazz?"
Capetown Ambush By Monk is what I consider to be Real Jazz. Man, I love that tune!

I also have the ability to like smooth Jazz. Perhaps I am a misfit! If so, then so be it!
I feel that there is room for both Real and Smooth jazz in the world.
 

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Good tune, yes, but it's by T.S. Monk, Thelonious' son, who's the drummer on that track.
I haven't been able to find out to much about that Track except that It was written in part by Thelonious Senior and finished by his son and performed at The Monk Jazz Institute.
If someone can clarify, I would be grateful to know the true answer.
TS was the drummer I believe.
 
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I haven't been able to find out to much about that Track except that It was written in part by Thelonious and finished by his son and performed at The Monk Jazz Institute.
If someone can clarify, I would be grateful to know the true answer.
TS was the drummer I believe.

Aha. Found it here. It's on T.S. Monk's CD "Take One."

"Cape Town Ambush" was written by Donald Brown, a piano player who once played in Art Blakey's Jazz Messengers.
 
That tune was sent to me from a friend from Berklee along with several other Monk tunes.
I guess that I got the story wrong.
Thank you.

Bob, considering how right you always get stuff you're entitled to get one little thing wrong every once in a blue moon, bro.
 
Speaking of inferior forms of music that masquerade as jazz.
I really like the drumming in this crap piece of work!
I hope that you all can bare your way through it.
 

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This is the crux of it right here. No Louis Armstrong was not the Kenny G of his day, and this again is one of the greater issues that Pat is talking about. General musical confusion. When you're talking about Pops, you are talking about an incredible musician with impeccable phrasing, tone, pitch, invention never mind personality. He created the role of the soloist in jazz and popular music in general; and influenced generations of instrumentalists and singers a like. Kenny G knows that.

Why is jazz so special? Why is Fletcher Henderson, Ellington or Bill Evans so special? As Abe pointed out music that is is accessible is usually not as special. Jazz has a rich harmonic language for one that in the case those mentioned above did not come out of the bluebut out of their assimilating the harmonic language of Debussy, Ravel, Bartok and even Schoenberg to some regard. I am a drummer, I don't solo in the same way a sax or pianist does, and my harmonic knowledge is limited. I do know that these harmonic changes create great vehicles for soloing, The blues scale can be a very interesting melodic and harmonic device because it has a major and minor intervals as well as a tritone at its disposal. From there you have the modal basis of musical theory that includes the addition of melodic characteristics. When you are soloing, you have to understand the melodic character of the changes, the scales that they are based on and this helps point you in the direction you will go.

In Smooth jazz the harmonic vocabulary is more limited. Kenny G, as Pat pointed out, uses a lot of pentatonic melodies. One of the things about pentatonic melodies is that it is hard to write a bad one. Take you fingers over the black notes of the piano, "Every little breeze seems to whisper Louise." Everything sounds nice. That is because in a pentatonic scale there is no dissonance. There are no interesting intervals like a tritone, a minor sixth or minor seventh. There is no chromaticism. Everything is at least step a part. This creates no drama, no tension and no interest. Most folk melodies are based on the pentatonic scale. The argument is that as such, smooth jazz does not use harmony or even the blues scale as the great jazz players employed it; but relies on very simple harmonic exploration for its soloing.

From there you have the interplay of a great jazz ensemble, the counterpoint, the nuance, the drama comes into play. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jFL1KuvSyo

Again, a keyboard player would more readily give a better analysis.

Ken, if you're going to weigh up the other Ken with Miles, how about Miles's cover of a pop tune, which is ostensibly smooth jazz: Time After Time?

I've found a sound clip of Kenny's band live playing Midnight Motion.

The main differences apparent to these untrained ears are the voicing, phrasing and dynamics. Miles's playing is more sensitive, emotional and vulnerable. Not that that necessarily denotes "jazz" since there are many jazz solos that are like technical fortresses. Miles's backing in that tune is more jazzy, whereas Kenny's crew is more funk-oriented. Of course Kenny doesn't use space like Miles, but who does?

Really, for all the flak the ole Ken receives, he and his band are a pretty damn slick unit, whatever anyone wants to call the music. Not my style but if that band's crappola I'll eat my hat.
 
I don't know why Kenny G would even be mentioned in the same breath as jazz.
I had to laugh when he once boasted that Miles Davis had personally told him that he (Davis) thought that he (Kenny G) could really play.
I just imagined how Miles must have forced himself to keep a straight face, if he indeed did mention something like that. He might have meant that Kenny G could indeed play his instrument, but he can not play jazz.
 
Ken, if you're going to weigh up the other Ken with Miles, how about Miles's cover of a pop tune, which is ostensibly smooth jazz: Time After Time?

I've found a sound clip of Kenny's band live playing Midnight Motion.

The main differences apparent to these untrained ears are the voicing, phrasing and dynamics. Miles's playing is more sensitive, emotional and vulnerable. Not that that necessarily denotes "jazz" since there are many jazz solos that are like technical fortresses. Miles's backing in that tune is more jazzy, whereas Kenny's crew is more funk-oriented. Of course Kenny doesn't use space like Miles, but who does?

Really, for all the flak the ole Ken receives, he and his band are a pretty damn slick unit, whatever anyone wants to call the music. Not my style but if that band's crappola I'll eat my hat.

I actually liked when Miles did Cyndi's tune. My friend in college used to study with her vocal coach. I got to head a lot of first hand stories about what a diva she was and how difficult she could be. She would show up to lesson in a limousine. But Cyndi has some pipes and she had a five octave range back then.

Whatever Miles does, it is still Miles doing it and Miles making a little money was surely someone who deserved to make a little money. Like I've said, I am not the guy who hates popular jazz. I am not the guy who hates it when Herbie or Manhattan Transfer have a hit. I don't get all bent out of shape. I certainly don't have a problem with musicians making money. The original of the Cyndi cover is a little bit uninteresting; but this live version does perk it up a bit.

There has always been a problem with artists crossing over to the pop arena, like that guy Dylan. Ella had the same problem and the song books were a way of .doing a more popular repertoire. That was a good marketing idea. I like some of the song books; but they tend to be hit or miss. But Ella with Basie was quite good all around.

It's funny to listen to the bass on the Kenny track and it sounds like warmed over Stanley Clarke. The thing about smooth jazz again is that it was a marketing label, a bunch of suits researching that people like the word 'smooth' for a genre and of course jazz would give it some sophistication. It is not a genre developed by jazz musicians. I have pretty good pitch; but to a lot of musicians, probably with better pitch than me, think Kenny's pitch is sharp and they think his tone is poor. I am not so arrogant that I am going to say well they're only great jazz artists what do they know. I know better what defines jazz than great artists who perform it for a living, scholars who spend their life studying it, and people who make the sacrifice to do what they love in this life.
 
The funny aspect of what is jazz and what is pop, is that many so-called jazz standards were original show tunes, pop tunes or Broadway tunes, that were adapted by jazz bands.

I can't stand Kenny G, but this whole argument that he can't be considered "jazz' because he's "pop" is silly based on how much jazz comes from other sources. And so much jazz was the "pop" music of it's time.

Or are we going to say Buddy Rich's "West Side Story" doesn't count either?
"Summertime" is one of more recorded jazz standards, with versions done by everyone from Duke Ellington Miles, Blakley, to Coltrane. Yet it came from George Gershwin's "Porgy and Bess."
 
The funny aspect of what is jazz and what is pop, is that many so-called jazz standards were original show tunes, pop tunes or Broadway tunes, that were adapted by jazz bands.

I can't stand Kenny G, but this whole argument that he can't be considered "jazz' because he's "pop" is silly based on how much jazz comes from other sources. And so much jazz was the "pop" music of it's time.

Or are we going to say Buddy Rich's "West Side Story" doesn't count either?
"Summertime" is one of more recorded jazz standards, with versions done by everyone from Duke Ellington Miles, Blakley, to Coltrane. Yet it came from George Gershwin's "Porgy and Bess."


Because it not so much the choice of the tune but more of the whole meat of the matter on the conceptual end that helps greatly with defining the parameters of the jazz content within. Again from a jazz musicians education, experience and overall musical background with those ears it's a easy one to answer based on that knowledge base of the core elements coming from the very jazz "root" tree however extended on the outer branches it can get.

It's not the tune but the content within on the individual player end or an ensemble or arranger/composer approach that the answer to the question is given......... at least for this actual jazz musician it does. As I said recently the true answer lies on where your own take on your personal experience on the subject of jazz sits.
 
Because it not so much the choice of the tune but more of the whole meat of the matter on the conceptual end that helps greatly with defining the parameters of the jazz content within. Again from a jazz musicians education, experience and overall musical background with those ears it's a easy one to answer based on that knowledge base of the core elements coming from the very jazz "root" tree however extended on the outer branches it can get.

It's not the tune but the content within on the individual player end or an ensemble or arranger/composer approach that the answer to the question is given......... at least for this actual jazz musician it does. As I said recently the true answer lies on where your own take on your personal experience on the subject of jazz sits.

Fair enough.

But early Benny Goodman? Woody Herman? A lot of early swing and big band was very "pop" for it's time period.

(and no, I'm not comparing their skills).
 
Fair enough.

But early Benny Goodman? Woody Herman? A lot of early swing and big band was very "pop" for it's time period.

(and no, I'm not comparing their skills).

But is it Jazz? Haha, you just stepped in it...........................sorry, couldn't resist............;-}
 
Wasn't "The Charleston" considered to be a Jazz tune in the Roaring Twenties?
 
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