Moeller dilemma

"[Dom] definitely wouldn't deny the reality that his upper arm is involved in his Low Moeller stroke. He'd simply point out (rightly as anyone with eyes can see) that it isn't the part that's doing most of the moving. "

Said, Boomka. Totally true, and it is the same way with that wrist stroke that I call the free stroke (and I'll tell you why I like that label: I felt totally free when I played it for the first time!). It is a wrist stroke, and....that's really it. to say the whole arm is involved is at best untrue, at worst damaging, as students try desperately to fit large muscle movement into what is one of the simplest, most beautiful, and amazing drum techniques.

To say that "subtle" arm movement is involved misses the point: if you know how to play a wrist stroke, you will know it is played from there. Sure, by way of the laws of motion, the reaction force causes the elbow (if relaxed) to move some, but that is a reaction. To say it is an integral or even important part of the wrist stroke is like saying a little hat on the back seat of a car causes it to run....

Casper

Casper,

I can see how you injected what I wrote into the discussion, but it wasn't my intention as I said when I questioned Alex. Subtle movements does miss the point because it had to do with something entirely different then your discussion with him. A good example of having to do with what I asked Alex is this. I use to have a hard time maintaining a dotted eighth shuffle\boggie ride pattern. Not because it's difficult, but because most guitar players seem to want to fall into a triplet feel and they ultimately win the battle because they carry the melody. From talking to other drummers this problem was nothing unique to me. I spent some time watching New Orleans style shuffle drummers and they all had some kind of motion going on, and some not so subtle, that I interpreted as locking them into the dotted eigth rhythm. I experimented with some of what I observed and came up with a method that worked for me to keep everyone on a consistent rhythm that I couldn't lock in until I watched what others were doing.
 
Casper: Right. Why would I want to use the larger muscles and levers of my body to create a powerful full stroke, when I can just limit myself to one half of the power available by using only one half of my arm?

Regards,

Alex

The free stroke played using your whole arm is called the power stroke. It's just another stroke, that's all. It's used if you want more power starting in vertical position. More power, that is, than a "normal" free stroke played from the wrist. It's a hierarchy:

Low stroke: a little wrist
Half stroke: a little more wrist
Full stroke: maximal power from the wrist alone
All the above three are free strokes

Power stroke: full wrist and full arm, starting and ending vertical

Low Moeller: wrist (from forearm), starting and ending low
Half Moeller: full arm and shoulder, starting and ending low
Full Moeller: starting in the butt, rippling through the whole body, and breaking hoops!

Casper
 
Boomka: Casper said: "correct execution of the free stroke and the low Moeller does not involve the whole arm. And if it does, you are wasting motion."

So do you agree that Dom is wasting motion?

No, I think that this matter between you and Casper could be fixed with a little attention to definitions and syntax.

If I get Casper correctly, he's not talking about the flexing of the biceps and triceps, but about the upper arm coming out from the body via contraction of the deltoids and rhomboids. That is - as I said - that the weight of the humurus is not involved in creating the force of the Low Moeller stroke. I think we all understand that the motor that drives any particular part of the arm is - in large part - in the section of arm/body above it - i.e. fingers/wrist powered by forearm, forearm powered by triceps and biceps and the humerus/upper arm powered by the deltoids, rhomboids, and trapezoids.

This all seems to come down to a misunderstanding over the word motion. At least where I'm sitting... You mean muscle contraction, he means the swinging out of the upper arm from the body to provide leverage to lift the forearm.
 
I am not sure how helpful these kinds of advice are, especially on a thread where so much excellent input has already been given. (Except the pepperoni pizza comments, of course!) Most of us weren't lucky enough to start playing the drums at the age of two and develop a beautiful, natural stroke like Jojo.

If you look at great NBA players (Kobe and LeBron for example), they all shoot the ball EXACTLY the same way. There is a reason for this. Given the design of the human body, it is the most natural, efficient and powerful way to do it. Drumming isn't much different. Since we are all anatomically alike, what works for me will also work for you. There will always be certain exceptions, but those are a rarity.

Unless you happen to be a natural drumming genius, it is best to learn the rules before you try to break them.

Regards,

Alex

Sorry I thought music was an art form! All the greats expressed themselves, and technique was found as a by product of that expression.
 
With all due respect to those engaged in these rudimental ruminations (we all go through them), perhaps the best thing to do would be to QUIT THINKING TOO MUCH! The energy you use in pursuing your rudimental perfectionism would be better spent playing along with records, learning harmony on the piano, working on the reading of music, and playing grooves with a metronome. Do you seriously want to end up like Dom Famularo, who plays with no one? Do you want to be "nice house, but nobody's home?" Whether your pinky is raised when you play the cymbal, or if your "fulcrum" is on the second knuckle of your third finger, or your "pressure point" lies between the pad of your thumb and forefinger, or at the side of your thumb and your ring finger...oh, to hell with it, guys, just play the music!
 
With all due respect to those engaged in these rudimental ruminations (we all go through them), perhaps the best thing to do would be to QUIT THINKING TOO MUCH! The energy you use in pursuing your rudimental perfectionism would be better spent playing along with records, learning harmony on the piano, working on the reading of music, and playing grooves with a metronome. Do you seriously want to end up like Dom Famularo, who plays with no one? Do you want to be "nice house, but nobody's home?" Whether your pinky is raised when you play the cymbal, or if your "fulcrum" is on the second knuckle of your third finger, or your "pressure point" lies between the pad of your thumb and forefinger, or at the side of your thumb and your ring finger...oh, to hell with it, guys, just play the music!

I am passionate about understanding, and being able to explain the motions. I wasted a lot of time growing up because I didn't know anything about the free stroke. Had I learned that (and since it was coined by Stone, believe me, it was there..), many calories and hours spent in frustration would have been saved. I want to pass that gift on to the next generation of drummers. When someone says something that goes against that basic philosophy, which I believe, after having learned it from john Riley, Dom, Sanchez, and others, I take issue with them. It is my duty to share and pass on the wisdom I gleaned from these masters.

And I will never quit, because I really do think it matters. That is what a technique forum is for, I think: to share information and wisdom between us....

Casper
 
No, I think that this matter between you and Casper could be fixed with a little attention to definitions and syntax.

If I get Casper correctly, he's not talking about the flexing of the biceps and triceps, but about the upper arm coming out from the body via contraction of the deltoids and rhomboids. That is - as I said - that the weight of the humurus is not involved in creating the force of the Low Moeller stroke. I think we all understand that the motor that drives any particular part of the arm is - in large part - in the section of arm/body above it - i.e. fingers/wrist powered by forearm, forearm powered by triceps and biceps and the humerus/upper arm powered by the deltoids, rhomboids, and trapezoids.

This all seems to come down to a misunderstanding over the word motion. At least where I'm sitting... You mean muscle contraction, he means the swinging out of the upper arm from the body to provide leverage to lift the forearm.

Boomka:

I appreciate you taking the time to read my posts to try and understand where I am coming from. Let me tell you, Casper and I are talking about two completely different things.

I learned the fundamental motion that I use to play the drums 25 years ago when I was a student at North Texas. It's the motion that Casper calls the power stroke. But most importantly, it's a feeling. It's a feeling of motion that I experience throughout my entire arms when I am drumming. And I use this feeling for every stroke I play, from ppp to fff. So Casper can talk all he wants about all these supposed different strokes and techniques that are necessary to learn to play the drums, but I play the drums the way I trained my body to do it, with the levers of the arm working in perfect synchronization for every stroke I make. There is no such thing as wasted motion in my playing. Every movement has a purpose, and every motion channels the energy from the lever system of my arm into the drums.

I believe there is only one fundamental drum stroke, which is that feeling of motion I was talking about. How that stroke actually hits the drum depends on what type of grip you are using, but the feeling is the same for all the grips. When I want to play what Casper calls the free stroke, I simply loosen my grip and let the stick rebound. When I want to use Moeller, I simply start the stroke with the hand down instead of the hand up.

The stroke that I use is based on the same way that young children play the drums. They can't use just their wrists or their fingers, they don't have the dexterity. They use their whole arms when they hit the drums, because that is the only way they can strike them. Don't you find it interesting how many self-taught drummers have risen to the level of mastery, without learning or knowing about all these supposed different strokes and techniques that are necessary to play the drums?

For Casper to say that it is not a good idea to imitate the motions of the master drummers, while suggesting there is some kind of "extra" movement in their playing is really misguided. The art form of drumming today is at an incredibly high level. Complex and powerful music requires perfect execution of motion. When you are watching a master drummer, how to do it is being displayed right in front of you. Think about it, if you could match those motions exactly, you could play the drums like that too! Drum playing is the art of motion, a famous drummer once said.

There are no extra strokes or movement in the drumming of a master any more than there are extra strokes in a Leondardo Da Vinci painting. This is why when Dom's upper arm swings out from his body in that video, it is evidence that it is not a reaction, but the action that begins the stroke. Exactly like you said above, the motion lifts the forearm. When the forearm goes up, the hand goes down and the stick hits the drum. Look for this motion in the masters when they use German grip. You will see it all the time.

Okay, enough of this rant.

Out.
 
Alex,

While it's clear to me that you don't want to go 'round the Maypole on this matter any more, I do feel the need to respond to one thing you said.

Don't you find it interesting how many self-taught drummers have risen to the level of mastery, without learning or knowing about all these supposed different strokes and techniques that are necessary to play the drums?

Quite the opposite, in fact. I'm always struck by the fact that so many of the masters studied hard and applied the principles passed to them by masters of a previous generation.

Louis Bellson had his father, Roy Knapp and finally Murray Spivack.
Joe Morello had Stone and Gladstone (as did one of my teachers, Ray Reilly, who I would consider a master).
Tony Williams had Alan Dawson.
Gadd went to Eastman and served in the Army bands.
Garibaldi studied with Spivack.
Vinnie Colaiuta had Chaffee, and went to Spivack when he nearly had to quit due to pain in his hands.
Dave Weckl had his teachers in St. Louis, then Gary Chester, and lately Gruber.
Jeff Porcaro had his father.
Even after initial success, Max Roach went to the Manhattan School and studied classical percussion techniques.
In Scottish drumming, because it's ensemble based, everyone learns from their forbears. Guys like Alex Duthart, Jim Blackley, etc. all had significant instruction. Ditto the Swiss Basel school.
In the world of classical percussion, a strong training pedigree is nearly universal. I mean, who even owns a xylophone or has a set of timps at home?

(Oh, and Ed Soph, as you know, shares your Alma Mater...)

I could go on, but the thing that sticks out to me is how few of the legends of our craft made it to the top of the heap without a good amount of help from good teachers along the way. I quick perusal of the names on the Drummerworld homepage shows that the vast majority of those drummers had some or a lot of instruction in the fundamentals of stroke motions at some point or another in their careers. If we widen the lense to include various drumming traditions from around the world (Afro-Cuban, West African, Indian Dhal and Tabla) we again find that personal transmission from previous masters is a common element in the development of elite players.
 
Last edited:
Wow, thanks for that. I know you are a teacher yourself. Sometimes I feel it is a thankless job. Thank god the financial rewards just make up for it. :p esp in these trying financial times for us guys who teach and play funk'n jazz drumming. I always liked that line.

Mainstream American culture is one that often does not value education. And those who do spend the time to learn about these things often feel a bit alienated from the mainstream. You have to do it for the love and that openness that it brings you. Your post is a wise assessment of the value of education and gives us all a boost in the arm.
 
Last edited:
......The stroke that I use is based on the same way that young children play the drums. ......... Don't you find it interesting how many self-taught drummers have risen to the level of mastery, without learning or knowing about all these supposed different strokes and techniques that are necessary to play the drums?

For Casper to say that it is not a good idea to imitate the motions of the master drummers, while suggesting there is some kind of "extra" movement in their playing is really misguided. ......

Are you saying the masters play like children now?

What I said about the masters, like 30 posts back, in passing, was that sometimes the basic movements are not easy for mortals to distill when we watch any drummer. Some people can easily get it, others can't. I couldn't....

So I suggest the student learns the basic movements, from someone who has explaining that as his or her specialty. Sorry I didn't get that across.

Casper
 
With all due respect to those engaged in these rudimental ruminations (we all go through them), perhaps the best thing to do would be to QUIT THINKING TOO MUCH! The energy you use in pursuing your rudimental perfectionism would be better spent playing along with records, learning harmony on the piano, working on the reading of music, and playing grooves with a metronome. Do you seriously want to end up like Dom Famularo, who plays with no one? Do you want to be "nice house, but nobody's home?" Whether your pinky is raised when you play the cymbal, or if your "fulcrum" is on the second knuckle of your third finger, or your "pressure point" lies between the pad of your thumb and forefinger, or at the side of your thumb and your ring finger...oh, to hell with it, guys, just play the music!

This is a sensible man.
 
Alex,

While it's clear to me that you don't want to go 'round the Maypole on this matter any more, I do feel the need to respond to one thing you said.



Quite the opposite, in fact. I'm always struck by the fact that so many of the masters studied hard and applied the principles passed to them by masters of a previous generation.

Louis Bellson had his father, Roy Knapp and finally Murray Spivack.
Joe Morello had Stone and Gladstone (as did one of my teachers, Ray Reilly, who I would consider a master).
Tony Williams had Alan Dawson.
Gadd went to Eastman and served in the Army bands.
Garibaldi studied with Spivack.
Vinnie Colaiuta had Chaffee, and went to Spivack when he nearly had to quit due to pain in his hands.
Dave Weckl had his teachers in St. Louis, then Gary Chester, and lately Gruber.
Jeff Porcaro had his father.
Even after initial success, Max Roach went to the Manhattan School and studied classical percussion techniques.
In Scottish drumming, because it's ensemble based, everyone learns from their forbears. Guys like Alex Duthart, Jim Blackley, etc. all had significant instruction. Ditto the Swiss Basel school.
In the world of classical percussion, a strong training pedigree is nearly universal. I mean, who even owns a xylophone or has a set of timps at home?

(Oh, and Ed Soph, as you know, shares your Alma Mater...)

I could go on, but the thing that sticks out to me is how few of the legends of our craft made it to the top of the heap without a good amount of help from good teachers along the way. I quick perusal of the names on the Drummerworld homepage shows that the vast majority of those drummers had some or a lot of instruction in the fundamentals of stroke motions at some point or another in their careers. If we widen the lense to include various drumming traditions from around the world (Afro-Cuban, West African, Indian Dhal and Tabla) we again find that personal transmission from previous masters is a common element in the development of elite players.

So What are you saying? That only jazz men can be masters? Blinkered.
 
It's actually really funny to see this topic. I was self taught for my first 3 years of drumming... and I was doing moeller with my horrible 4/4 drum beats repeated over 9000 times before it was ever presented to me as a stroke/technique. I never even noticed I was doing it.

Also, starship troopers is a sick movie.
 
Back
Top