how jazz.....

guys, my teacher told me that if u re a jazz player u can cross the borders into any style of music and in steve smiths drum technique dvd he talks about pretty much the same thing, even i can say that getting into jazz has given me a large supply of ideas that i ve been able to incorporate into any style of music that i play, but what id like to know is how it has done so, is there any science to jazz filling our minds with more creative ideas, i mean, whats the understanding behind this? yearning for an answer here................
 
Jazz, more than any other genre of music demands a level of proficiency on the instrument.

This is of course not to imply that other forms dont, but if you take jazz to primarily mean improvised music, then the music might require you to play ' anything'.

And for that you have to be prepared & trained to play 'anything'.

And for that you need to be pretty skilled at your stuff.

This is as simple an explanation as there is
 
The drum kit (or the trap set) was originally a jazz instrument and pretty much all genres of "rhythm music" (pop, rock, funk, soul etc...) evolved from the jazz tradition. If you learn about jazz, you learn about the history and the foundation of the instrument, and that knowledge is applicable to all styles of Western drumming.

Jazz, more than any other genre of music demands a level of proficiency on the instrument.

This is of course not to imply that other forms dont, but if you take jazz to primarily mean improvised music, then the music might require you to play ' anything'.

And for that you have to be prepared & trained to play 'anything'.

And for that you need to be pretty skilled at your stuff.

This is as simple an explanation as there is

Oh yeah, that, too.
 
I was always a fan of Buddy Rich's drum solos, only recently have i started buying jazz cds and listening to them... best thing Ive done so far!
 
I was always a fan of Buddy Rich's drum solos, only recently have i started buying jazz cds and listening to them... best thing Ive done so far!

???

I have a cat!

In addressing the actual question being posed here, I'd say that this opinion came from a jazz drummer. I love jazz and call myself a jazz drummer, but I think that the idea that this one genre allows you to access all others is a bit self congratulating. I think that if you take time to develop an understanding and mastery of any particular style, you are in fact informing all of your playing at once. That said, a deep study of rock and roll may not yield much in the way of enlightenment when it comes to understanding odd time signatures etc... But that said, I don't think that my study of jazz and Afro-Cuban music has made me a very capable metal player. In fact I got fired from a hard rock/metal band (which I auditioned for when in need of $$$) Because I played "like a jazz drummer".

Just playing devils advocate here.
 
I think part of it is the fact that Jazz covers many more time signatures that most( and I say most for the sake of the one person who is going to name 1 rock and roll song with 15 time changes) Rock N Roll which is pretty much 4/4. If you can learn to play in all of these time signatures you will have a better understanding of the others as they relate to beat.
 
Yeah but in that regard, I really don't think that "jazz" touches on that. Maybe fusion, or more modern jazz, but really in standard jazz music you are talking about 2/4 3/4 4/4 some 5/4 and of course 6/8... Again, playing devils advocate.
 
i think it's because jazz training teaches a player how to play melodically - to hear and play spaces, and to hear and play phrases. jazz music also demands a great deal of sensitivity to what the people around you are playing. jazz musicians must develop impeccable listening skills.

in my experience, jazz training has opened up the instrument for me. i know now the bass drums isn't just for downbeats and the snare drum isn't just for backbeats and i can play more than 8th or 16th note ride patterns on the cymbals. its all about syncopation, baby!
 
Good point. Jazz drumming does allow/require you to treat the kit as an instrument, rather than just a time keeping tool. Developing the ability to play it as an instrument would only aid your playing in other genres.
 
I think hungrypo and Garvin are saying it pretty well. What the drums actually DO in Jazz is usually more than what's required in other music. For example, in contemporary Jazz, the drummer will not just play a continuous, static beat. They are expected to interact with the music as it goes by- they are more than just a 'timekeeper' and therefore must have the ability to do so. In other words, the skill set is usually more highly developed (or should be) and relies on things others have mentioned, listening, improv, sensitivity, touch, soloing, musiciality and so forth.

That being said, I don't know if I believe that idea though, that Jazz players can play anything. I think 9 times out of 10 when a strict Jazz player plays rock, it sounds lame, same for when a strict rock player plays Jazz. A lot of Jazz players have noodle arms and a lot of rock players have tree trunks when it comes to Jazz. Furthermore, I've seen more than a few Jazz 'drummers' who can play the bare minimum of interdependance, can barely swing on the cymbal, can't play either loudly or quietly and are not comping at all because they don't very well. In a rock setting, say, these guys would suck, no question and would have no gigs. In a Jazz setting, they will be hired by vocalists and others who just want to hear a cymbal, swinging or not and are not even AWARE that they can't do much else. In many, backing Jazz gigs, a drummer can get by with only playing a cymbal. This is brilliant if you do it right but horrific if that's your entire bag=).

I think it's mostly the ideal. In other words, the IDEAL Jazz drummer is ABLE to do anything because of his approach and understanding of the drumset, creativity and ability required to play the music he usually plays, namely, Jazz music. And in that case, it would seem that yes, a Jazz drummer would have the ability to play most other things easier, but in practise, I cannot play double bass drums either....

And yeah, Grunter- what Jazz are you listening to?!
G
 
One more important point to add... The ability to support a soloist and play tastefully, comping, and otherwise responding to the music in real time is something that wouldn't be favorable in other genres as it is in jazz. Also as Greg points out a lot of times when you are hired by a vocalist, or a trio in general you aren't the soloist. You are there to swing, keep time and stay the hell out of the way.

Its good to be able to comp, but you gotta know when to keep it in your pants as well...
 
That being said, I don't know if I believe that idea though, that Jazz players can play anything. I think 9 times out of 10 when a strict Jazz player plays rock, it sounds lame, same for when a strict rock player plays Jazz. A lot of Jazz players have noodle arms and a lot of rock players have tree trunks when it comes to Jazz. Furthermore, I've seen more than a few Jazz 'drummers' who can play the bare minimum of interdependance, can barely swing on the cymbal, can't play either loudly or quietly and are not comping at all because they don't very well. In a rock setting, say, these guys would suck, no question and would have no gigs. In a Jazz setting, they will be hired by vocalists and others who just want to hear a cymbal, swinging or not and are not even AWARE that they can't do much else. In many, backing Jazz gigs, a drummer can get by with only playing a cymbal. This is brilliant if you do it right but horrific if that's your entire bag=).

G

I meant 'play anything' more as in technical ability and a sensitivity to play the unexpected rather than suitability to many kinds of gigs

That too, up to a point.
 
I meant 'play anything' more as in technical ability and a sensitivity to play the unexpected rather than suitability to many kinds of gigs

That too, up to a point.

Oh, I know, but I think there is a line between the two because often some literally think that if you play Jazz, you can play ANYTHING. I think it's important to distinguish the 2 and you've helped to further do that!

Also, allow me to pick just one word of yours and make another point for this thread? In most other styles of music, people don't WANT the unexpected from a drummer.=)

G
 
but really in standard jazz music you are talking about 2/4 3/4 4/4 some 5/4 and of course 6/8... Again, playing devils advocate.


That was my point.. Not much rock is played in these time signatures.

And I listten to a lot of Jazz, to answer the question.
 
Oh, I know, but I think there is a line between the two because often some literally think that if you play Jazz, you can play ANYTHING. I think it's important to distinguish the 2 and you've helped to further do that!
G

You got it. I stand corrected.


....
 
That being said, I don't know if I believe that idea though, that Jazz players can play anything.

G

This is a good point. Jazz is a style that you learn to play like any other. There are traditions and expectations of a jazz drummer.

I think that the real meaning of the understanding that jazz players can play anything is not only that jazz is the basis of the drum tradition, but the kind of independence and musicality that studying and playing jazz requires is transferable to other styles. Where as, in rock, that may not the case. But I would really doubt that most jazz players would take easily to a real sharp heavy metal gig, that required of them that they execute double bass at mm. =230, blast beats and a lot of high volume, aggressive playing.
 
I've seen more than a few Jazz 'drummers' who can play the bare minimum of interdependance, can barely swing on the cymbal, can't play either loudly or quietly and are not comping at all because they don't very well.

I think this is where my problem is. Then again, I never exactly claim to be a jazz drummer - thank goodness.
 
This is a good point. Jazz is a style that you learn to play like any other.

No. Jazz is a way of thinking. Jazz is an approach to your instrument. Jazz is a concept or set of concepts. Jazz is an idea. Jazz is a philosophy. The people that learn the 'swing beat' at the same time as they learn 'the rock beat' sound like it. Jazz IS more than just a beat or a style.

That was an important distinction as well, I think. Probably another one of the things that leads people to think Jazz drummers can do anything, I just don't think it means they can.

G
 
Not a lot of rock in these time signatures.

His long-time musical partner, alto saxophonist Paul Desmond, wrote the Dave Brubeck Quartet's most famous piece, "Take Five", which is in 5/4 time and has endured as a jazz classic. Brubeck experimented with time signatures through much of his career, recording "Pick Up Sticks" in 6/4, "Unsquare Dance" in 7/4, and "Blue Rondo à la Turk" in 9/8. He is also a respected composer of orchestral and sacred music, and wrote soundtracks for television such as Mr. Broadway and the animated miniseries "This Is America, Charlie
 
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