Is music finite or infinite?

This is just a thought I had based on a conversation I had with a friend the other day. In Chess, there are something like 10 to the power of 50 (10x10x10x10x10.....) total moves you can make in the game. In checkers, I recall reading something like 10 to the power of 30. So trillions of moves, but still finite. A computer could be programmed with every possible move in checkers or chess, because though there is a huge number, it is finite.

For music, is that the case? On the drums, even playing between the hi-hat, bass drum, and snare drum, you can play notes everywhere from pp (extremely quiet, barely even there) to triple forte (very, very loud), accent patterns, variations of beats, different styles, combinations of styles, polyrhythms, odd note groupings, odd meters, metric modulation, rhythmic illusions, free time, rudiments, and on and on and on. On even a basic four piece, single kick kit with a few cymbals, there are a huge amount of possibilities.

But is the amount of possibilities infinite, or is there an upper limit on how many patterns, notes, variations, you can play on the drum set when you take into account phrasing, dynamics, etc?

"Music is enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not enough for music."

That quote sums up my thoughts. To me music is infinite because there's no way I'll learn everything there is to know in just one lifetime.

Great question! Interested to see the replies.

My first thought is that music is infinite, but it's also limited by what we consider pleasing - and that includes experimental musicians. In practice, it's really limited haha - go on, play "Gloria" again And in my hands it's really, really, really limited haha

Music is also conceptually limited - we have verses, choruses, bridges, intros, codas, solos, cadenzas, etc and it seems like any variations on these structural concepts are small enough to be included in one of the major groupings.

Seems to be the same with genres too, except for metal of course, whose sub genres subdivide indefinitely

That's like saying "is there an infinite amount of stories to be told?" There are only so human many experiences and there's a formula to writing a story so millions of them are similar, but none are exactly the same. Same with music.

Infinite (hmmm gotta use up 20 characters).

I'm sure scientifically or mathematically it's finite but, to all humans alive and who have ever lived I'd say it's infinite.

Nobody has touched upon everything yet, there's still plenty new ideas each day even if alot are just variations of other material (which asks the question what is a variation and what is it's own?)

I'm no scientist but, I don't believe any human has the capacity to remember everything, absolutely everything that has been said and done so far.
so, until we learn how to immortalise ourselves and have drummers in their prime at 300 years old, with the time to learn, remember (and probably forget) not just the old but the continous stream of new that creative people spew out or, digitally enhance our memories and install music knowledge directly to our brain hard drives via USB I think music will always atleast seem infinite because no individual has heard it all and the fact we all hear things differently means there's a constant source of original inspiration to create new things to learn and learn from.

Can't wait to be a robot god!

Finite but the possibilities are very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very great.

I suppose that depends how you define "music". I tend towards infinite. To say that "music" is finite is essentially the same as believing the human brain has finite capabilities.

Someone mentioned a drum kit and a computer already. Look at it this way: Theoretically, a computer could be programmed to have say a 4 piece drum kit and a few cymbals, then calculate how many combinations of patterns could be played on those given drums. What a computer couldn't even start to do, is understand "feel" or the difference between one person playing a pattern, to another playing the same progression, even assuming robot-like time consistency... Without our brains there would be no human music. I think art and music are some of the closest we've come to "magic" as a species. It goes beyond the physical.

Add in the fact that when I think "music" I think of many different sound sources all coming together in different ways... Totally infinite.

I agree with your assessment, Dr_Watso. A million different drummers will all have different sounds they will pull out of the exact same kit, even with the exact same heads, sticks, cymbals, and tuning, just from their personal touch. And of course they will all have their own personal feel and phrasing.

Watching this Max Roach video of him doing absurd things with just a hi-hat(and the stand!) just shows how many possibilities there are, even on a single component of the set.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8syiOwwVyY

Dr_Watso said:

Totally infinite.

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Infinite with limitations, as per my previous post. It's probably scientifically unsound but I think of two kinds of infinities.

One is the commonly held idea of infinity - the universe.

The other I think of as "inner infinities", for example, how many fractions lie between the numbers one and two? Infinity. This is the "kind of infinity" - infinitesimal variations - that you guys seem to be talking about.

That's why I never play anything absolutely right - I'm still exploring all those infinite incorrect possibilities

I think in practice our technical and conceptual limitations and the taste of listeners (not to mention the boundaries imposed by the rest of the band's technique and taste) renders the idea of infinity in music a bit moot. Otherwise, why would a band play Brown Eyed Girl when they had trillions of alternatives?

In a literal sense, it's definitely infinite. There are an infinite number of sounds to be drawn from, never mind just thinking in terms of pitches, that can be arranged in a different way every time.

In a practical sense, it's pretty much infinite, too.

So the answer is infinite.

Sure, since music is based on maths it must be infinite, but ... infinity can be bounded too, as per the example of the fractions between the numbers 1 and 2. We often operate under very strict possibilities.

If that's not true then I guess we can all look forward to playing some infinitely unbounded free jazz and experimental music at the local bar ...

Western music, as a rule, is very limited and popular taste even more so. To start with we have the chromatic scale. The notes between the cracks are generally only achieved briefly via pitch bends and glissandos (and out of tune instruments). How about drums? Care to break away from the backbeat or spangalang during a set to explore the "infinite" possibilities? Good luck with that.

You Yanks are such romantics The idea of infinity is interesting and I imagine it's inspiring for some with great capabilities (or ambition), but in practical terms, screw infinity, I say!

IMO the boundaries we set on music - scales, harmonies, time sigs, forms are what makes music interesting - the imposition of our social constructs on infinity ... art reflecting life.

Don't believe me? Then try to invent a completely new idea on drums or with your music that's not been done before - and see if it can't be found 14,354,845 times with a Google search. Should be easy enough if there's infinite possibilities.

With these academic/philosophical questions the same thing always occurs -- people wind up arguing the arguments. We're already debating different issues. To the point -- what do you even mean by "infinite"?

NOTHING is new. There hasn't been a new chord pattern, harmony or series of melodic combinations since Bach. But can nothing be created that is EXACTLY something else? Of course not. People have been saying the same things in different ways since the dawn of time and will continue to do so. Why even question it?

OK, I've changed my mind. We're getting pretty deep here. I guess it depends on how you define the parameters of the question. If you are saying that in a given bar of 4/4 time on a 5 piece kit is there a finite or infinite number of possible combinations you can play than, yes, it is finite. Large but finite. If you are saying that is all music finite or infinite than I would have to say it is infinite. First of all there are instruments that have not been invented yet or even conceived. After all, is the solution to Pi infinite or finite? And, after all, how does this get me to play my kit better?

The question as it has currently been stated is unsolvable.

plangentmusic said:

NOTHING is new. There hasn't been a new chord pattern, harmony or series of melodic combinations since Bach. But can nothing be created that is EXACTLY something else? Of course not.

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More or less. Think of fingerprints - all subtly different and each of our own fingerprints are most likely unique. However, they're still just fingerprints.

BTW, we're not arguing - we're discussing. Got any arguments with that?

Anon La Ply said:

More or less. Think of fingerprints - all subtly different and each of our own fingerprints are most likely unique. However, they're still just fingerprints.

BTW, we're not arguing - we're discussing. Got any arguments with that?

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Well, not arguing with each other -- just arguing what the actual discussion is! lol Actually, there's nothing to even debate -- it's just a presentation of ideas and as most everyone essentially agrees -- there can always be variations of the same things.

This is getting pretty abstract, but in context of the original discussion with my friend that made me think about this, we were discussing Artificial Intelligence. He asked if there would ever be a point where androids could improvise and react to music played by others (a robot jazz trio? ) He said that there was already AI chess computers, but I said that was only possible because even with 10 to the power of 50 moves, every legal move at any point in a game could be determined, and the "best" possible candidate for a move could be selected in the context of the chess game.

You can program a drum program, and play bass or guitar over top of it, but the human musicians would be improvising over it, not the steady pulse that would be unchanging, obviously. I guess I was saying that you can't program all the possible music "moves" because there are so many possibilities, not just from the drums, but from the "moves" the other musicians make that one reacts to. Weird thread I guess, but if you don't want to participate, feel free to abstain from the discussion. I think some of the responses have been pretty interesting personally.

Anon La Ply said:

Infinite with limitations, as per my previous post. It's probably scientifically unsound but I think of two kinds of infinities.

One is the commonly held idea of infinity - the universe.

The other I think of as "inner infinities", for example, how many fractions lie between the numbers one and two? Infinity. This is the "kind of infinity" - infinitesimal variations - that you guys seem to be talking about.

That's why I never play anything absolutely right - I'm still exploring all those infinite incorrect possibilities

I think in practice our technical and conceptual limitations and the taste of listeners (not to mention the boundaries imposed by the rest of the band's technique and taste) renders the idea of infinity in music a bit moot. Otherwise, why would a band play Brown Eyed Girl when they had trillions of alternatives?

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wow !!!

__________________

plangentmusic said:

With these academic/philosophical questions the same thing always occurs -- people wind up arguing the arguments. We're already debating different issues. To the point -- what do you even mean by "infinite"?

NOTHING is new. There hasn't been a new chord pattern, harmony or series of melodic combinations since Bach. But can nothing be created that is EXACTLY something else? Of course not. People have been saying the same things in different ways since the dawn of time and will continue to do so. Why even question it?

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Anything that can be physically played is possible, even ridiculous things, like people playing the hi-hat with one part of the left foot, and a second bass pedal with the other while the rest of the limbs are all moving, so five way independence. If you had two sticks in each of your hands and someone manipulated them to play different things at once, while doing the two things with your left foot, and the bass drum with your right, you could do six or seven way independence with your four limbs. I guess by infinite I mean- could you ever exhaust all the possibilities that someone could play on the drums, if you had the ability to play literally anything, like at a Vinnie level.

_Leviathan_ said:

Anything that can be physically played is possible, even ridiculous things, like people playing the hi-hat with one part of the left foot, and a second bass pedal with the other while the rest of the limbs are all moving, so five way independence. If you had two sticks in each of your hands and someone manipulated them to play different things at once, while doing the two things with your left foot, and the bass drum with your right, you could do six or seven way independence with your four limbs. I guess by infinite I mean- could you ever exhaust all the possibilities that someone could play on the drums, if you had the ability to play literally anything, like at a Vinnie level.

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LOL. So if everyone could play like Vinnie all music would stop? Okay, this conversation has officially gone from surreal to silly.