Snare Problem

pearlvmx

Junior Member
Sorry if this is in the wrong place.

I made a pretty picture. If the link dies, let me know.



Every other drum tunes to my liking. Full sound. Nice resonance. No problems. The drum in question is a Pearl, 14" x 5.5", 100% maple snare.

I would like your opinions... please! Could the head be seating wrong? Could I be tightening those lugs too much too soon? The same lugs 3 times in a row? Is it the drum?

Thanks in advance for any advice.
 
Can't help you with the lug screw tightening problem. Are those screws longer than others? [non-identical replacements for the stock screws?]

Possibly the shell and hoop are both still true round and the hoop is just offset a bit, but that would only cause a gradual, steady increase between the drum's edge and the hoop from it's closest point to its furthest, which would be exactly opposite, and then gradually decreasing around the other side. But, you'd have been able to eyeball that. More likely, either your shell or the hoop is out-of-round, if not both. Take the hoop off and then use a tape measure to measure across the shell from lug to lug, at different points around the drum, and see if the distance is consistent. If the shell's slightly out-of-round, someone posted a great description of how to fix that recently, but I'm logging off in a few and don't have time to find the thread... I'm sure someone will point you to it by the time I log in next. If it's the hoop- uh, buy another?
 
Brother, my thought while reading this was to check that shell over very closely...especially if you bought a new head and hoop I would be going over that shell with a fine tooth comb. Will be interesting to find out what is going on there. Nice photos to show the issue now get to the bottom of this problem and report back...BEST of Luck!
 
After measuring the shell and hoop, they are both slightly off.

Shell is off by 1/16" and hoop is off by as much as 2/16" across one lug.

Now my question is, is this a huge problem? It has happened twice, once with stock head/hoop and again with new a head/hoop. When I replace a head I do it pretty much how every one [should] do it. I finger tighten all the lugs and apply equal tension across the lugs in a star type pattern. I test each lug to even them out. I do, however, like a pretty tight batter head... maybe I am over tightening? It just seemed like I could never get that sound I was looking for and it came closer every time I would tighten it. I may need to learn to love a loser head.
 
It shouldn't be a serious problem. It can be fixed.
If you place the head on the drum without the hoop does it go on easy or do you have to flex the head a fair amount to fit it?
As long as the head and hoop fit to the drum without having to flex them the drum should tune OK.
If the drum is out of round it can be repaired with lengths of threaded rod. I will give you links if you need them.

When you install a head on a drum
Place the drum on a flat surface.
Tighten the tension rods just past finger tight, 1/4 turn.
Place your palm in the center of the head and push down firmly. Don't be afraid to put about 30 LBS of force.
Tighten each tension rod some more, 1/2 turn. Push down with your palm hard again.
Tune the drum a bit tighter than you want it. Hit the drum hard with a stick a few times. Tune to desired sound.
This is the best way that I have found to seat a new head

DO NOT DO THIS WITH THIN SNARE BOTTOM HEADS!
 
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The head goes on fine and the hoop does fit. I do not have to flex or bend anything to get it to go on to the drum. The drum is only out of round by 1/16". When I tune, I take the head up in 1/2 turn increments until sound/feel are to my liking and then I fine tune. I seat the head pretty much how you said, bob. I apply pressure with my palm after all lugs are finger tight, then I make them all finger tight again so all lugs start equal and the head is seated.

I like a really tight batter head and I cannot seem to get there because the lugs stop. So I guess they are simply too tight and cannot go any further? They are stopping around 2 to 2 1/2 turns. Some lugs are turning very fluid like, with no resistance. Others are grinding into the hoop causing friction (damaging the hoop) and making them hard to turn. Once this grinding happens, the same lugs are stopping every time I try to re-tune. When I went for 2 1/2 turns, one lug was unable to turn without excessive force. I was not able to complete that half turn on that lug. Others were turning no problem. The snare side has no problem, only the batter side. I am not sure how many turns I put on the snare side but the lugs don't stop or become hard to turn.

The lugs essentially stopping, becoming hard to turn, is what caused me to be concerned. This has happened since the first time I tried to tune it with stock heads. It even happened with a new hoop and head. Could 1/16" difference on the shell be the problem?

Am I concerned over nothing? Should I just force the lugs to turn? I am afraid that if I force the turns I want that I will damage my drum. The hoops are Pearl Super Hoop II's. Should I try die cast hoops? Should I get with pearl for a new drum? I really want a reference snare, should I just use this an excuse to get one? :p
 
The head goes on fine and the hoop does fit. I do not have to flex or bend anything to get it to go on to the drum. The drum is only out of round by 1/16". When I tune, I take the head up in 1/2 turn increments until sound/feel are to my liking and then I fine tune. I seat the head pretty much how you said, bob. I apply pressure with my palm after all lugs are finger tight, then I make them all finger tight again so all lugs start equal and the head is seated.

I like a really tight batter head and I cannot seem to get there because the lugs stop. So I guess they are simply too tight and cannot go any further? They are stopping around 2 to 2 1/2 turns. Some lugs are turning very fluid like, with no resistance. Others are grinding into the hoop causing friction (damaging the hoop) and making them hard to turn. Once this grinding happens, the same lugs are stopping every time I try to re-tune. When I went for 2 1/2 turns, one lug was unable to turn without excessive force. I was not able to complete that half turn on that lug. Others were turning no problem. The snare side has no problem, only the batter side. I am not sure how many turns I put on the snare side but the lugs don't stop or become hard to turn.

The lugs essentially stopping, becoming hard to turn, is what caused me to be concerned. This has happened since the first time I tried to tune it with stock heads. It even happened with a new hoop and head. Could 1/16" difference on the shell be the problem?

Am I concerned over nothing? Should I just force the lugs to turn? I am afraid that if I force the turns I want that I will damage my drum. The hoops are Pearl Super Hoop II's. Should I try die cast hoops? Should I get with pearl for a new drum? I really want a reference snare, should I just use this an excuse to get one? :p
If the tension rods are bottoming out They are simply to long.
Post a pic of the side of your drum showing the tension rods.
1/16 of an inch is not enough warp in a drum to cause a problem.
Do you have washers on your tension rods?
Is that a six lug snare? You cannot tension a six lug drum as tight as an eight or ten lug drum.

It seems as though you are exceeding the strength of your drum and stamped hoop. I have two 13 inch 6 lug snare drums and I don't go higher than 80 on my drum dial tuner. I go as high as 90 on my 10 lug snares.
The drum dial may be the answer for you. It is a great tool to get tension close before fine tuning by ear. I have been playing for many years and I use my dial to save time.
 
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As you can see, the lugs are not bottoming out. I thought this too, but I tried screwing them in with out a hoop and head and they go in just fine all the way... much much further than in this picture. I am only getting to 2 1/2 turns and they stop. They grind into the hoop, tearing off the shiny outer layer. Once this is damaged, the lugs become hard to turn and they end up getting stuck. Its the same lugs every time. The same lugs as with the stock hoop/head. I tried rotating the hoop and the same lugs get stuck because of the increased friction between lug/washer/hoop from the damage. The lugs turn easily where the hoop is not damaged. Not all of the lugs stop. The snare is an eight lugger.
 
This is an unusual problem. Everything looks normal in the pic.
If you view the tension rods from the side are they angled out away from the drum or do they go straight forming a 90 degree angle to the head?
The only other thing that I can think of is that the rods can't tighten because they are cocked at an angle for some unknown reason.
The washers should prevent the lugs from digging into the rim. If the rods thread freely with no rim on the drum, they should be able to torque until the tension rod strips the threads or breaks when the head and rim are applied! I have even seen a few rims begin to bend before a tension rod was damaged.

Interesting to say the least.
It is possible that you are trying to torque the rods until they begin to stress at the threads and they start to bind. The clue is that the washers are digging into the rim. That shouldn't happen if the rods are pointing straight down and they are not cocked. You may simply be exceeding the limits of the hardware.

I can tighten the rods on my 6 lug snares until the rim starts to bend and I have reached the limit of the hardware without the rod binding or digging into the rim. I use these 6 lug entry level snare drums on kits that I leave at practice rooms and play low paying gigs with so that I don't have to move my good drums and worry about them. They are my beater snares.

Your snare is high quality, That is what is puzzling me???
 
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They don't seem to be bending at an angle great enough to cause the problem you mention. It's kind of like the 1/16" deviation of the shell... not enough to make a difference. They do angle, very slightly. The housing for the lug on the drum moves to allow slight angles. I am thinking of ordering die cast hoops and trying those along with new heads. Exhaust all options before trying to get a replacement from Pearl or shelling out almost as much as I paid for the entire kit for a Pearl Reference Series snare drum. I am glad I am not alone in thinking that the lugs should not stop. I too have bent a hoop over tightening a head but this is only 2 1/2 turns. Thanks for all your input. Hopefully I'll get a few more bites.
 
it's likely that the lug inserts (the threaded part that receives the tension rod) are stripped. It could've been something got into the threads and caused it to strip out, or the inserts were not threaded properly from the start. 2 1/2 turns is nowhere close to high tension. This happened on my cheap ass Pulse piccolo snare to the point that the t-rod was so stuck that when I tried to get it out it broke. Just get some new lug inserts online at a place like Interstate Music, or they may have them at GC or any other local drumshop, and they're very cheap. If this doesn't work, than your tensions rods are stripped. I don't think it's the lug splay, because Ludwig's newer metal snares have serious lug splay, but it doesn't cause any problems because of the movable inserts. If you contact Pearl, they may just send you whole new lugs, but it may take a while to get. Or, they may just send you a whole new drum, so maybe you should do that first.

As far as the out of round shell and hoops, I find that to be common. None of my hoops seem to be perfectly round, and the shells are rarely exactly round. My drums sound perfectly fine. 16th of an inch is acceptable out of roundness to me. It's not really a problem unless you're having to force heads on the drum.
 
Okay! I feel a bit... stupid?

After further investigation, I think this is a head limitation. It seems as if the head is whats stopping the bolts from going any further. The head is an Evans Genera HD Dry Snare Batter. I have got it to sound pretty good and it is as high as the tension bolts will allow me to go. None of the tension bolts will tighten any further without excessive force. It feels great as well. I find it odd, but... it is what it is I suppose. I think what is stopping me from finding that sound I am after is the depth of the snare drum. I want more low end.

Is this something achieved through production (mics and effects)?

If I go for a deeper snare, let's say 6.5" instead of 5.5", will there be much of a difference?
 
I thought that you were just plain going to tight. That was one of my earliest impressions of your concern.
It just didn't add up any other way.
I still think that you should buy a drum dial to help you learn how to tune without over tensioning.
 
I thought that you were just plain going to tight. That was one of my earliest impressions of your concern.
It just didn't add up any other way.
I still think that you should buy a drum dial to help you learn how to tune without over tensioning.

I thought this too but the tension is only at maybe 3 full turns. To me this is not too tight. I only go this tight on my snare. 3 full turns is over tightening?
 
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