The Grand Master Buddy Rich

dougalmac said:
Buddy was the best drummer to play ever, period. The fact that he had an ego was irrelevant.

Elvin4ever said:
Rich could groove any way he desired.

He could play any music he chose to play at the highest possible level, and could perform said task without the need for practice.

He was the fastest.

His cymbal work was the absolute standard.
Sounds like you both agree with most of what has already ben posted in this thread. You did notice that the name of the thread is "The Grandmaster Buddy Rich"?
 
Elvin4ever said:
This is the greatest Buddy Rich post ever seen on drummerworld. It sums up perfectly what so many of us older guys feel everytime we see inane comments like all he had was chops, he always played his solos out of time, he was great for his era, he couldn't lay down real grooves, he would suck in a real rock band etc, etc, etc... .

Dougalmac may not be aware of the revisionist history seen frequently on drum forums where Rich is still considered great but with disclaimers, judged almost entirely on four or five videos that I have stated at least a thousand times are not even close to what he actually was.

Day after day we witness teenage fans who argue incessantly, with no regard for idealogical comprehension and/or possess the tools necessary to make such judgements. Instead they rail on that Rich support is a kind of props for an older generation that neither appreciates nor understands the nuances of their misunderstood heroes, as if any comparison does justice to historical accuracy. I have even seen posts where I am told that Rich could not hold his own with DCI drummers, had lousy brushwork, or could not lay down a good groove.

For the last time...from the perspective of American 20th Century drum set playing alone...

Rich could groove any way he desired.

He could play any music he chose to play at the highest possible level, and could perform said task without the need for practice.

He was the fastest.

His cymbal work was the absolute standard.

His brush work was at least as good as Shelly Manne's.

Yes, he would have been great with absolutely any band of any style or genre.

No these are NOT opinions. They are quantatative and qualitative assessments based on many years of educational analysis, and thousands of hours of acute observation.

Am I saying that Rich walked on water?

Yes, I am saying that. He was a Mozart like prodigal freak of nature, whose likes may not be seen again for decades to come.

He may not be your favorite. Check out my handle. He wasn't mine. But he was the best...and during his lifetime, no one and I mean n-o o-n-e dared claim otherwise.

I'm gonna have to let you stand alone on this one Elvin...I have nothing but 100% respect and admireation for Buddy, but I think you went overboard on this one...

Yes they are opinions and nothing more...we all respect your opinions, or at least I do...IMO Buddy was the greatest and most impressive drummer of HIS TIME...

I know your 100% serious...But when you start thowing out speculations such as "He could play any music he chose to play at the highest possible level, and could perform said task without the need for practice.", you kindda start lossing me...
 
DogBreath said:
Sounds like you both agree with most of what has already ben posted in this thread. You did notice that the name of the thread is "The Grandmaster Buddy Rich"?
I respect that Dogbreath. But even on a thread of such vaunted title, 16 posts from the last page alone either debated the veracity of the total Rich legacy or openly sought to identify an imagined weakness. It's a strange twist of fate considering his almost untouchable status just a decade ago.

Over the years I have noticed the respectful level and diversified nature of the adamant Rich support base. This is in stark contrast to the cult based factions observed on other threads, who seem interested in their hero and their hero alone, and in doing so contribute little to the totality of drum set experience. I have never met a true Rich supporter who did not admire and respect the whole picture, and because of their diversified nature contributed mightily to the overall percussion based landscape.

The Rich legacy that makes such good works possible, rests on the totemic status of its leader. IMO, for that reason alone, historical inaccuracies tarnish the ongoing progress of the genre as a whole.
 
toteman2 said:
I'm gonna have to let you stand alone on this one Elvin...I have nothing but 100% respect and admireation for Buddy, but I think you went overboard on this one...

Yes they are opinions and nothing more...we all respect your opinions, or at least I do...IMO Buddy was the greatest and most impressive drummer of HIS TIME...

I know your 100% serious...But when you start thowing out speculations such as "He could play any music he chose to play at the highest possible level, and could perform said task without the need for practice.", you kindda start lossing me...
Its somethin' about being around him I think Totem. Elvin knew him as a kid and he saw him a bunch. My dad played in his band and hated his guts. People say he even got in a cussing match with him one time. But dad worships him as a player and talks just like Elvin about him. When people talk about other drummers bein' better than him, dad just thinks thats funny.

The "saw him up close people" see him almost like he was a magic man. He had a spell on people I think. I don't think the Bonham hardcores are as hardcore and they have better videos to draw from. The old school is right. If you want to understand Buddy's greatness listen to recordings and stay off the video. they're good but not as good as that stuff.

But still, I don't know totem. Maybe they're right. Like your sayin' Buddy was the best in "his time.' But wasn't his time the greatest time for drummers ever? About the opinions, can't people actually figure out whose best based on standards we all accept? I don't know man. I need to think about this.
 
I think i heard something pop up that buddy could play any genre and would be the best ever in that genre period. I disagree. Just sayin i think Peart is the best rock drummer in history and buddy wouldnt be as good for the genre.
 
Elvin4ever said:
I respect that Dogbreath. But even on a thread of such vaunted title, 16 posts from the last page alone either debated the veracity of the total Rich legacy or openly sought to identify an imagined weakness.
So the vast majority of the members here hold Buddy Rich in the highest regard, and a few say things like maybe Buddy Rich wasn't the best at every possible musical style or he might not have had the fastest hands ever or that maybe some drummers today have better four-way independence. I can live with that.
 
mattsmith said:
Its somethin' about being around him I think Totem. Elvin knew him as a kid and he saw him a bunch. My dad played in his band and hated his guts. People say he even got in a cussing match with him one time. But dad worships him as a player and talks just like Elvin about him. When people talk about other drummers bein' better than him, dad just thinks thats funny.

The "saw him up close people" see him almost like he was a magic man. He had a spell on people I think. I don't think the Bonham hardcores are as hardcore and they have better videos to draw from. The old school is right. If you want to understand Buddy's greatness listen to recordings and stay off the video. they're good but not as good as that stuff.

But still, I don't know totem. Maybe they're right. Like your sayin' Buddy was the best in "his time.' But wasn't his time the greatest time for drummers ever? About the opinions, can't people actually figure out whose best based on standards we all accept? I don't know man. I need to think about this.

I can totally see the "up close" effect Buddy could've left on people back in the day no doubt...I mean NOBODY was doing the things Buddy was doing back then, and then you actually witness it...I must have been breathtaking...I see "oldschollers" regaurding Buddy as the best there ever will be as kind of a Babe Ruth effect...I talk to alot of old baseball buffs who all reaguard Babe Ruth as the best ever, and I argue with them non-stop...Babe Ruth was the best of HIS TIME...The game has evolved so much since then...You have athletes who excell in almost every phase of the game, and they have to do it agaist much better competition...

Do I beleive that Buddy's time was the greatest time for drummers ever? Not at all...I think we're living in that time right now...The explosion of "over the top" drummers in the last 10 years is like it has never been...The advancements in the industry are at a level never sceen before, and we happen to live in a time where soooo many drummers are able to share information and communicate with one another (hence drummerworld)...Drumming has been going nowhere but up since Buddy, and Buddy has ALOT to do with that...The standards he set were able to push drumming to where it is today...IMO it's at a much higher level...

And IMO I don't think we can ever say who is the BEST...Drumming is far to wide open to limitless options to say who is best...
 
toteman2 said:
I can totally see the "up close" effect Buddy could've left on people back in the day no doubt...I mean NOBODY was doing the things Buddy was doing back then, and then you actually witness it...I must have been breathtaking...I see "oldschollers" regaurding Buddy as the best there ever will be as kind of a Babe Ruth effect...I talk to alot of old baseball buffs who all reaguard Babe Ruth as the best ever, and I argue with them non-stop...Babe Ruth was the best of HIS TIME...The game has evolved so much since then...You have athletes who excell in almost every phase of the game, and they have to do it agaist much better competition...

Do I beleive that Buddy's time was the greatest time for drummers ever? Not at all...I think we're living in that time right now...The explosion of "over the top" drummers in the last 10 years is like it has never been...The advancements in the industry are at a level never sceen before, and we happen to live in a time where soooo many drummers are able to share information and communicate with one another (hence drummerworld)...Drumming has been going nowhere but up since Buddy, and Buddy has ALOT to do with that...The standards he set were able to push drumming to where it is today...IMO it's at a much higher level...

And IMO I don't think we can ever say who is the BEST...Drumming is far to wide open to limitless options to say who is best...
I have to disagree on these things totem. I don't think our time is even 10% as good as the drummer peaks in the 60s and 70s. All of those top guys then were the great innovators. Nowadays I just don't hear innovators, which is like guys who are doin' something to push a unique sound or voice along with their great technique and skills. Today I hear alot of "chops guys" but nothing that hasn't already been done before in some other way.

Sometimes it sounds like a bunch of great drummers were all smashed together to create some mutant named Vinnie Hellhammer Donati. But they still sound like pieces of old stuff. This doesn't mean they don't play the drums super great. But I don't see any of these guys turning into immortals that get talked about like people go on about Bonham and Rich. Maybe Chambers, but I don't know. I just don't see the old magic dust today. And I don't count Gadd in this because he's really part of this same older age where Rich comes from. He just comes from the end of that.

When I was at NAMM a couple of months ago, I got to hear all these big guys, the ones everybodys all into now. But to me they were all masters but kinda sounded real similar. They had incredible chops but were not innovators. Nothing got me like when I hear Elvin Jones, Rashied Ali or Tony Williams, Morrello or John Bonham, Buddy or Louie Bellson before he got sick. One thing about today is there seems to be more guys goin' around to the music stores and such. Thats why i think some people think its a bigger scene now. But back in the older time big guys played in schools and there isn't as much of that now. That was probably something that left a bigger mark.

I think people now feel like there missin' something. Wouldnt this be why there is all this Gadd worship now?

BTW Babe Ruth was the greatest. Because he was also the greatest lefty pitcher of his time too. A 94-46 record for a nine inning per game starter aint bad for the greatest hitter. Nobody today can do that.
 
mattsmith said:
I have to disagree on these things totem. I don't think our time is even 10% as good as the drummer peaks in the 60s and 70s. All of those top guys then were the great innovators. Nowadays I just don't hear innovators, which is like guys who are doin' something to push a unique sound or voice along with their great technique and skills. Today I hear alot of "chops guys" but nothing that hasn't already been done before in some other way.

Sometimes it sounds like a bunch of great drummers were all smashed together to create some mutant named Vinnie Hellhammer Donati. But they still sound like pieces of old stuff. This doesn't mean they don't play the drums super great. But I don't see any of these guys turning into immortals that get talked about like people go on about Bonham and Rich. Maybe Chambers, but I don't know. I just don't see the old magic dust today. And I don't count Gadd in this because he's really part of this same older age where Rich comes from. He just comes from the end of that.

When I was at NAMM a couple of months ago, I got to hear all these big guys, the ones everybodys all into now. But to me they were all masters but kinda sounded real similar. They had incredible chops but were not innovators. Nothing got me like when I hear Elvin Jones, Rashied Ali or Tony Williams, Morrello or John Bonham, Buddy or Louie Bellson before he got sick. One thing about today is there seems to be more guys goin' around to the music stores and such. Thats why i think some people think its a bigger scene now. But back in the older time big guys played in schools and there isn't as much of that now. That was probably something that left a bigger mark.

I think people now feel like there missin' something. Wouldnt this be why there is all this Gadd worship now?

BTW Babe Ruth was the greatest. Because he was also the greatest lefty pitcher of his time too. A 94-46 record for a nine inning per game starter aint bad for the greatest hitter. Nobody today can do that.


Always liberating to view the world through the eyes of another...Especially when it's from someone as young and as talented as yourself Matt...This converstation could go on until the end of time. I don't even want to get into Babe Ruth and oldschool baseball lol...We just see things differently on this subject...I think one thing we really do agree on is that Buddy rules...
 
toteman2 said:
Always liberating to view the world through the eyes of another...Especially when it's from someone as young and as talented as yourself Matt...This converstation could go on until the end of time. I don't even want to get into Babe Ruth and oldschool baseball lol...We just see things differently on this subject...I think one thing we really do agree on is that Buddy rules...
Aw come on man. These guys today like Barry Bonds could have never made it back then. The first time Bonds ever mouthed off like he does now, Satchel Page and Josh Gibson would have drug him behind a tree and beat a hole in him. How many homers would steroid dude have hit then? (lol)

Youre right man we will have to disagree on this and walk away for now. I think innovation is the reason a great musiciam walks the earth. Some have other ideas. But I'll respect that.
 
Class A Drummer said:
I think i heard something pop up that buddy could play any genre and would be the best ever in that genre period. I disagree. Just sayin i think Peart is the best rock drummer in history and buddy wouldnt be as good for the genre.

Oy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Class A Drummer said:
I think i heard something pop up that buddy could play any genre and would be the best ever in that genre period. I disagree. Just sayin i think Peart is the best rock drummer in history and buddy wouldnt be as good for the genre.
Ahhhhhh...to be young.
 
Re: The Grand Master BR

Henry II said:
Then prepare to eat thy words and humble thyself at the altar of Buddy:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/62425/...8_buddy_is_61/

After seeing this video sooooo many times (everyday many times - a day!) since it was first available on the Buddy Rich official forum (a long time before being available here), I might say very confidently: There was no better snare drum Master technician than Mr. Buddy Rich... not even Mr. Alex Duthart! It cannot be... how??? It's so unbelievable what he does "here"... his spontaneous routines, perfect executions of the most ridiculously difficult hand techniques, eveything is so easy, fast and creative (also inhumanly controlled), he doesn't even look at the drums at all!!! It's truly amazing. I've been studying "all" of Buddy's videos (the ones I've got, of course) and there could'nt be anyone BETTER than him (maybe on league with, but not much more than that). One thing which constantly bugs me is that Buddy quote of him saying that "he is a far better drummer than me" refering to Alex Duthart... I really cannot imagine anyone "a LOT better than him", how could it be? For me it's not humanly possible. Not a LOT better. Definitely. Even less "back in the days...". Just my humble opinion also based on thousands (literally speaking!) of observations and comparasions.

- Ivo.
 
Class A Drummer said:
I think i heard something pop up that buddy could play any genre and would be the best ever in that genre period. I disagree. Just sayin i think Peart is the best rock drummer in history and buddy wouldnt be as good for the genre.
I completely agree, and that doesn't take anything away from Buddy.
 
True, but can't you argue that with the vast ability Buddy possesed, it would not be a stretch to say he could very well play most all styles? Not trying to take anything away from any drummer, but Peart has a very good rep at being the best at rock drumming, but to me I kind of think just because Buddy was such a prodigy (bit cocky..haha..) IF[he would have practiced on a variety of levels he probably would have achieved to be pretty good at all styles. I wonder what he would have brought to the "rock" table. I think it might have been too much drums, and not enough music.
peace
 
Having refrained from posting in this thread thus far, I will give my opinion.
I've never seen Buddy Rich play live because I was 1 when he passed away. I own numerous recordings that he plays on. I've seen his videos. I think it's safe to say that Buddy Rich is the great drummer to ever pick up a pair of sticks. Just because he didn't play a groove doesn't mean he couldn't. Personally, I think the funk stuff he does is fine. If anyone cares to notice, in "Mercy Mercy Mercy" off Channel One Suite, he plays a basic James Brown type beat, and plays it busy and very, very, very well. There's other stuff- example- he may not have known a traditional 6/8 bembe cowbell pattern but when pressed to do it on Rich vs. Roach he grooved it extremely well..... even if it wasn't textbook correct. He was a true drum virtuoso. He wasn't my favorite- I'd have to say I have transcribed far more Tony Williams, Elvin Jones, Roy Haynes, Bill Stewart et al but just the same, I think Buddy was the best. I think Vinnie Colautia (who I also love) is another guy who can really really play. In my mind, the modern Buddy Rich. However, Buddy just had that "X" factor. I have no doubt he could play absolutely anything if pressed to do so. He was a once in a generation prodigy. Much in the likes of Mozart, Paganini, Charlie Parker, John Coltrane, Keith Jarrett..... Buddy Rich. As good as some of these new drummers are, they won't match Buddy. I love Vinnie more than almost any drummer, but I'll be damned if I'll say he's better than Buddy.
 
And as for Babe Ruth, he could hit more than Barry Bonds any day if he was chemically enhanced.
By the way, Go Sox and Big Papi in '06. Second mention to Doc Halladay and the Jays, along with Troy Glaus.
edit: as for lefty pitchers... Give me Whitey Ford with a .690 (!) winning percentage being played against only the best teams in the AL.. 45 career shutouts. Thank you.
PS: Honorable mention to Sandy Koufax in the NL with a .655 winning percentage,2395 strikeouts and 2.75 ERA.
 
I hate to rain on anyone's parade, but Babe Ruth never faced the likes of Roger Clemens, heh. (also a 'roid rager, perhaps?)

How did we go from BR to BB (Big Baby, Barry Bonds)? Matt, you teenager! Stay on topic ;-)

I hate baseball, I love drums.
 
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