How can i understand Elvin Jones?

a lot of my drummer friends at school always tell me to check out some drummers, mostly jazz drummers. but when i look them up, i dont really understand what they're doing, such as elvin jones. I've listened to a lot of stuff that features his playing, but i never understand what he is doing. what i learned about jazz drumming is that the hi hat should be constant and on time, like on 2 and 4 or something like that. but Elvin Jones didnt seem to do this, and it seems like the ride patterns he played would change every bar. so what i'm really asking is, how can i understand elvin jones' drumming?

if you ever figure him out will you please tell me too? thanks!

blackmagswithcats said:

a lot of my drummer friends at school always tell me to check out some drummers, mostly jazz drummers. but when i look them up, i dont really understand what they're doing, such as elvin jones. I've listened to a lot of stuff that features his playing, but i never understand what he is doing. what i learned about jazz drumming is that the hi hat should be constant and on time, like on 2 and 4 or something like that. but Elvin Jones didnt seem to do this, and it seems like the ride patterns he played would change every bar. so what i'm really asking is, how can i understand elvin jones' drumming?

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You just did.

john Riley explains a lot of this in his to book Beyond bop Drummer and The Jazz Drummer's Workshop. Fundamentally, Elvin is thinking of the drums as a melodic instrument, and creating grooves as melodic rhythms. He conceives of these ideas across the bar line rather that in a straight 4/4 and often phrases them in varying groups of three. 123-412-341-234. He is also thinking in 6/8. esp when he is playing in 3/4, so there is a lot of subdivision of the triplet figure happening in the ride pattern

If you listen to his playing, his time is based around quarter-note triplets rather than the normal swing time.

To really get a good understanding of how he plays, get your hands on a ton of albums he played on. A lot of Wayne Shorter stuff, Coltrane of course, etc. And really listen to the stuff, and try to get in his head, how he plays time.

so what i really have to keep in mind is triplets, 6/8, and melody?

blackmagswithcats said:

so what i really have to keep in mind is triplets, 6/8, and melody?

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No. There's a lot more to it than that.

I suggest you go and check out the old favourites like Philly Jo Jones. Elvin isn't a good starting point, he is frighteningly complex. That's not to say don't listen to Elvin, but bear in mind that it is not something to be aiming for that early in your development. Elvin is another level all together.

so first philly joe, who are some more drummers that i should check out before elvin?

I find that when I feel like the playing of any particular jazz player is beyond my grasp, it's good to go back and listen to the players that influenced and preceded them. Moreover, it can be helpful to go back to their earlier playing to hear the development of concepts.

In the case of Elvin, don't start at his most progressive, out there stuff, go back and listen to the Bop guys like Max Roach, Kenny Clarke, Philly Joe Jones, etc. That music has a little more grounding it than the the jazz that came later - i.e. the strong 2 & 4 on the hats, a steady Ride Cymbal pattern, and so on.

Then, try to find some early Elvin: e.g. with Miles in '55, with J.J. Johnson's band, with his brother Thad Jones, with Tommy Flanagan's trio (there's a scratchy album with him on a trio date at the Vanguard with Sonny Rollins that's pretty cool, dig Elvin groaning...) etc. That's all before he really came to define the Elvin Thing with Coltrane in the 1960s. You have to be able to hear the basic phrases/vocabulary/approach that he was working with in its infancy. On the earlier stuff, you can hear what he's playing is more rooted in the immediate past - i.e. the bop era. When you can do that, it'll be easier to hear the expansion/extensions into the freer, more polyrhythmic stuff that came later.

so do you i can apply this whole concept of finding influences, and slowly progressing through discography with any drummer that executes techniques beyond my knowledge?

blackmagswithcats said:

so do you i can apply this whole concept of finding influences, and slowly progressing through discography with any drummer that executes techniques beyond my knowledge?

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Not necessarily always. I once heard it remarked about Tony Williams that in all the history of jazz drumming he's one instance when you have to ask, "Where the hell did that come from???" Whether that's true or not is debatable, but it's not always immediately clear how one player takes up where their influences left off. But with Elvin I think a fairly distinct line of influences and a progression in his sound can be traced by getting yourself immersed in the music that spawned him. There are other examples: it's not hard to hear Max and Kenny Clark in Philly Joe or Art Blakey, for instance. In general, it certainly won't hurt you to get a grounding in the history of jazz if you're trying to understand how one player or another contributed to its progress. Elvin, in particular, can be tough on ears that are new to jazz, for exactly the reasons you cited in your opening post. A lot of what made Elvin Elvin, was that he redefined a lot of the rules that many people associate with jazz drumming.

Listen to Elvin with his playing from his own words regarding his concept{s} and how it all starts off first simple using the melody of the tune "3 Card Molly" for him as a framework of his melodic/rhythmic/poly-rhythmic concepts and ideas.

Having a primary grasp on the related concepts of poly-time ideas and how it relates to 4 way coordination is also a good thing to have under your belt to help decode all things Elvin. Remember also Elvin had a very organic way of playing too both as a ensemble player and soloist. This is not about drum machine perfection by any stretch being more loose and free flowing in overall character especially the swing time feel regarding Elvin.

This YouTube clip is taken from a full length 70's film "A Different Drummer" on Elvin owned by Rhapsody Films which I still have bought from them directly in 79 on VHS tape:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YVOd1hK0_w

blackmagswithcats said:

so what i really have to keep in mind is triplets, 6/8, and melody?

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That's place to start; but it has to do with phrasing and a level of independence whereby one can feel comfortable accenting various rhythmic phrases in the right hand while playing counter melodic phrases in the left hand.

His drumming comes out of West African masters like Baba Olatunji and the focus is on a fluid-elastic concept of time rather than strict time keeping as your described, HH on two and four His does thins by breaking up the triplets and creating interesting melodic ideas. It becomes hypnotic, doesn't it? John Riley called him "The King of Triplet phrasing."

Think of this concept. If you have a measure of 4/4 time and you accent a triplet pattern:

1(trip) let, (2-trip) let -(3) trip (let) - 4, (rests in parenthesis) you have an Afro-Cuban clave, now think of: 1 (2) 3 (4-5) 6 (1) 2 (3) 4 (5-6). You can think of the same idea in various ways and have different levels of phrasing happening at the same time. Now you're overwhelmed? That's why he's the king.

ok, now,
i love elvin jones

Hard to add much to what Steamer & Boomka already said, but your question reminds me of a time many years ago when everyone around me was into Hendrix and I, for the life of me could'nt figure what was so special about him. All that discordant feedback and distortion...

...till years later it fell into place kinda by itself. If you listen to enough music, and in the context of Elvin, if you are intersted enough in the evolution of jazz drumming and retrace the steps, it'll fall into place the same way. As Delta suggested, you could decode some of his typical phrasing, but absorbing his history & influences is the only real way of 'checking him out'.

It's odd this thread comes up today. I had a friend/teacher lend me some CDs to get me inspired, and among them was an Elvin-lead date called Time Capsule. I spent the evening grooving to it in the car while I doddled to the grocery store and back. Then I got in the door and here was this thread. It's nice to discover/rediscover Elvin with others...

Elvin's former tenor saxophonist, Dave Liebman, wrote a terrific essay that explains Elvin's concept of drumming. I don't remember his Website address. But just Google Dave Liebman, Saxophone, and I'm sure you'll find it. His other essays on the music are worth reading as well.

I was talking with Dave Liebman about this. He said that after Elvin and Tony there was no place that jazz could go rhythmically that was new and fresh. Fusion brought in rhythmic elements from rock and funk, and then other world music because is was a fresh place to start

After the poly-rhythmic development of Max, Elvin and Tony it seemed musically to be a bit of a back step. That may be some of the reason why 70's fusion is often viewed poorly among jazz enthusiasts. Some people say it wasn't jazz and others say it is often criticized by those with jazz sensibilities who don't really understand the music. But whatever it was Elvin certainly took jazz drumming in a direction that was hard to top and I think it did take a couple of decades for drummers to assimilate what had really happened.

Here's a place to start but I am sure the net surfers will have a better link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFvhN1q8KHo

bjparadiddle said:

Elvin's former tenor saxophonist, Dave Liebman, wrote a terrific essay that explains Elvin's concept of drumming. I don't remember his Website address. But just Google Dave Liebman, Saxophone, and I'm sure you'll find it. His other essays on the music are worth reading as well.

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I think there is an interview with Liebman on the subject somewhere on youtube as well..

I'm no fan of 70s fusion, though there were exceptions. Much of the innovation on drums are, I hate to say it (me being a jazz drummer, and all) comes from rock, hip-hop, and latin players. Blast beats, the use of two snares, two hi-hats, Rabb's stuff, the great latin players. The established jazz drummers, like Lewis Nash, are great players, but they haven't moved the music or the drumming up one notch. They're just really good players. There's a conservatism in jazz, these days. For instance, if I had the notion to use double pedals, I know some of the jazz guys would think I'm cheating. It's a rather sad thing to acknowledge, but the nail that sticks up gets pounded down in mainstream jazz. To say that Elvin and Tony are the end of jazz innovation is to admit no more can be done. I don't subscribe to that, no matter how much I respect Liebman.

Seems to me a few here have removed part of the important history of the jazz instrument after Tony and Elvin. What about what Jack Dejohnette has done for both the music and drumming blending the influences of both Elvin and Tony into a fresh modern drum voice unique even to today's standards {music+drumming}?

Anyone checked out where Eric Harland has taken modern {current} jazz drumming with Dave Holland's group to meet modern original standards and concepts of what can be achieved on developing a fresh take based on extending off the jazz tradition?