When have you truly 'mastered' a given BPM?

T

T-1000

Senior Member
I have heard different opinions on this, but I have a friend who is a very proficient black metal drummer, and he says that you have only truly 'mastered' a given BPM if you can play 16th notes for an HOUR solid without having to slow down, or play irregularly (due to fatigue and/or technique breakdown).

So, he hears lots of drummers say that they can play at 250bpm, but these drummers cannot actually sustain an hour long continuous blast-beat/bass-drum roll/snare-roll at 16th notes at 250bpm, therefore they can't really play at 250bpm, they can only play short minute-long bursts of 250bpm.

Do you agree that the above is necessary for mastering a given tempo?
 
i can say i have truly mastered 60 BPM but only because i have done Morello's "table of time" since high school. there is something to be said w/ mastering quarter notes thru 12s [also added 5:2, 7:2, 9:2 in the last 10 years] that build up your "how fast can you hear?" skill. meaning...i can hear how all the subdivisions *should* be placed at this tempo & makes rushing or dragging real obvious to me.
 
Mastering a tempo... for an hour... to what end? Perhaps for a stamina contest. At least WFD is more merciful at 60 seconds!

I try to concern myself with aspects of drumming and musicianship that actually apply to something I might possibly do in the real world. I guess if anyone should ever need an hour's worth of unrelentless blast beats, they should call your friend!

Bermuda
 
bermuda said:
Mastering a tempo... for an hour... to what end? Perhaps for a stamina contest. At least WFD is more merciful at 60 seconds!

I try to concern myself with aspects of drumming and musicianship that actually apply to something I might possibly do in the real world. I guess if anyone should ever need an hour's worth of unrelentless blast beats, they should call your friend!

Bermuda
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Well, I think the logic is that if you play at a tempo for anything less than an hour, you can compensate for sloppy technique by 'muscling through', hence some people can muscle-through to playing 16th notes at 250bpm for a short time period, say 10 minutes. However, if they try to play at 250bpm for more than 10 minutes, they get tired because their technique is inefficient and they've been muscling through to disguise it.
 
T-1000 said:
Well, I think the logic is that if you play at a tempo for anything less than an hour, you can compensate for sloppy technique by 'muscling through', hence some people can muscle-through to playing 16th notes at 250bpm for a short time period, say 10 minutes. However, if they try to play at 250bpm for more than 10 minutes, they get tired because their technique is inefficient and they've been muscling through to disguise it.
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Man, I must be getting old, because I get exhausted simply listening to 250BPM for 10 minutes.

Looking at your previous threads, you seem to have an obsession with speed and quantifying it. I've been told that control = speed. How's your control?
 
T-1000 said:
Well, I think the logic is that if you play at a tempo for anything less than an hour, you can compensate for sloppy technique by 'muscling through', hence some people can muscle-through to playing 16th notes at 250bpm for a short time period, say 10 minutes. However, if they try to play at 250bpm for more than 10 minutes, they get tired because their technique is inefficient and they've been muscling through to disguise it.
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I promise you, if you can do something perfectly for ten minutes, you have, if nothing else, the technique mastered.
 
T-1000 said:
Well, I think the logic is that if you play at a tempo for anything less than an hour, you can compensate for sloppy technique by 'muscling through', hence some people can muscle-through to playing 16th notes at 250bpm for a short time period, say 10 minutes. However, if they try to play at 250bpm for more than 10 minutes, they get tired because their technique is inefficient and they've been muscling through to disguise it.
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So, in order to be consistent for 10 minutes, you have to be able to do it for 60 minutes? You'd spend more time mastering, and less time doing!

Is there a real-world example of someone playing 250bpm, uninterrupted, for 60 minutes? Even 10 minutes? I don't mean a YouTube demonstration, I mean a drummer in a band making music that people are listening to.

Bermuda
 
bermuda said:
Is there a real-world example of someone playing 250bpm, uninterrupted, for 60 minutes? Even 10 minutes? I don't mean a YouTube demonstration, I mean a drummer in a band making music that people are listening to.
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I think this might be a philosophical matter of Futbol player versus sprinter versus marathon runner. I can only imagine a sustained BPM as an academic challenge (Moeller's march) or fringe artistic statement (The Lou Reed album consisting entirely of guitar feedback).

Either way, I agree and find the 250@1h to be absolutely ridiculous, though I can imagine a drummer playing 12 back to back, 5 minute, 250 bpm songs.
 
I think your friend is talking out of a place opposite his mouth. Trying to un-musically do 16ths at one speed for an hour sounds a lot more like masturbation than actual mastery of a concept. Furthermore, attempting to "master" given speeds as opposed to working on things that will help actually express yourself on the kit in any given situation sounds like a waste of time. If you really must set a click and keep to it for an hour, it's a lot more productive to run through sub-divisions and practice fills or patterns in time.
 
KamaK said:
I think this might be a philosophical matter of Futbol player versus sprinter versus marathon runner. I can only imagine a sustained BPM as an academic challenge...
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That's exactly what it is, and why I asked for a real world example where it's applied. :)

Bermuda
 
There are so many things that can be practiced and mastered with drumming, but there is no way anyone can master everything; there are simply not enough hours in the day. So prioritization of practice time becomes very important. One of the challenges of playing a musical instrument is being very careful about choosing WHAT materials to practice that will aid in the accomplishment of your musical expression in the quickest amount of time. It reminds me of the story of the Buddha and the handful of leaves (he was talking about spiritual matters, but it's not too hard to make an analogy with drumming, I don't think): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.031.than.html

I agree with what others have said--unless you are trying to play music in which it requires you to play an uninterrupted group of blast beats for an hour straight, your time would be better spent elsewhere than spending a lot of your practice time trying to achieve this goal. The concept of "headroom" is indeed important, but you mainly just need a little more technique (if that) than what you'll be called upon to play in performance, not 10-100 times more.
 
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eddypierce said:
There are so many things that can be practiced and mastered with drumming, but there is no way anyone can master everything; there are simply not enough hours in the day. So prioritization of practice time becomes very important. One of the challenges of playing a musical instrument is being very careful about choosing WHAT materials to practice that will aid in the accomplishment of your musical expression in the quickest amount of time.
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This is really important. Especially in my younger years, I fell victim to a "jack of all trades, master of none" approach. It's good to be well-versed in different areas, but you have a finite amount of time.
 
With regard to double bass speed, I believe your friend has a point, but his mistake is insisting on the one hour. I think the point is you must have endurance, or more specifically, proper technique, which actually requires less muscle endurance.

Just a month ago I was maxing out at 220 BPM, beyond that my whole leg(s) would tense up to play up to 240 for any length of time. So I put 240 on the shelf and played at 200-220 for weeks, doing all kinds of patterns as well as LRLR.

A couple of days ago something finally clicked and instantly I was playing 250 effortlessly, and I hadn't even been working on that speed at all.

So here's my theory: how do you unlock 250 BPM? By working on 220 until muscle memory takes hold and you have the right motion for that speed 100% dialed in.
How do you unlock 280? Work on 250, same process as above.

Another theory I have is that attaining higher speeds is a cumulative process. If I'm correct then this is extremely important to understand.
Think of it as keys for locked doors. Mastering one speed is the key that unlocks the door to the next level, whereas trying to hammer away at that next level itself is like trying in vain to pick the lock without the key.

Lastly, we all know different speeds require different leg/ankle movement. This occurs at different speeds for different people but the changes in movement should cover a range of speed, so as I recently discovered, when I finally nailed the right motion for 220 BPM suddenly the entire range for that ankle motion was unlocked and I could instantly play up to 250. Very, very important to realize this. When you "unlock" a higher speed you should actually have unlocked a whole range of speed for the ankle motion which you have "mastered".

So you aren't really trying to master a speed, but rather the ankle motion for a range of speed which could cover anywhere from 30-60 BPM more or less.
 
250 blasts for an hour? man.. that would be like a guy who runs 60km a day in drumming.

Also not very musical or practical, but id watch that on you-tube for a few minutes. Probibly feel bad for the guys wrists/fingers by the end too.

I can blast around 220 for as long as I want very relaxed (all day without thinking basically). 230 i start to burn out (10 minutes if playing non stop)... 240 i can do 5 minute stretches max. 250 its probably one minute bursts.

None of this matters because in a song I don't usually blast for more than a minute straight. I love DM drumming but who wants to listen to that? doing a drum fill is a reset on the arms and your lactic acid doesn't build up as much. DM drumming is truly just like a workout.

I think an hour of PLAYING at that tempo makes sense. or just being comfortable.. your speed should be tight. playing tight. practice having everything hit at the same time lining up on the notes. I hate when guys are all.. I can play really fast... but a blast isn't in time.. kicks are gallopy, on 16th note kick parts the snare and kick needs to hit at the SAME time.. not flam.



This is all endurance and technique... mastering slower bpms ore even faster would also mean you can groove in every one. play different styles in every one. different time signatures, be creative. have perfect tempo.

in all honesty mastering a tempo would mean being 100% on without a metronome which no one is.. so no one has ever mastered a tempo and everyone always has room to improve. me especially
 
T-1000 said:
I have heard different opinions on this, but I have a friend who is a very proficient black metal drummer, and he says that you have only truly 'mastered' a given BPM if you can play 16th notes for an HOUR solid without having to slow down, or play irregularly (due to fatigue and/or technique breakdown).

So, he hears lots of drummers say that they can play at 250bpm, but these drummers cannot actually sustain an hour long continuous blast-beat/bass-drum roll/snare-roll at 16th notes at 250bpm, therefore they can't really play at 250bpm, they can only play short minute-long bursts of 250bpm.

Do you agree that the above is necessary for mastering a given tempo?
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Tell your friend that a guy on the forum said one hour was for wusses. The truth is, if you can't play at 250 BPM for 8 hours you suck. ;)
 
Jeff Almeyda said:
Tell your friend that a guy on the forum said one hour was for wusses. The truth is, if you can't play at 250 BPM for 8 hours you suck. ;)
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8 hours??!!

Pansies....
 
Dr_Watso said:
I think your friend is talking out of a place opposite his mouth.
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The back of his head??

Dr_Watso said:
Trying to un-musically do 16ths at one speed for an hour sounds a lot more like masturbation than actual mastery of a concept.
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If this was true there'd be a lot of drummers practicing for 61 minutes at a time. Besides, what about those people who are trying to master the concept of masturbation?


Seriously, if someone needs a relentless unerring fast beat for a protracted period of time, well, we have machines for that. They'll out do any human and I don't see the harm in using them for just such an occasion.
 
One has truly mastered a given BPM when one can play the piece given them at the correct tempo with all the correct dynamics, even-flowing techinque that is high in musicality, and is on time, without making mistakes, and can do it consistently.

That is, it is within the context of what you are playing. Everything else is meaningless.
 
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