Can rhythm be taught?

Diet Kirk

Silver Member
I'm not sure if this should be here or in technique.

My fiance has absolutely no rhythm whatsoever. She can't dance, can't tap along to music, can't sing, nothing. We once took salsa dancing lessons together which ended in purple feet for me.

Which led me to think of something interesting. Can rhythm be taught and how would you go about it?

Is it likely hidden within and just needs unlocking?
 
As Bill said - Yes it can.
 
rhythms themselves can be taught ... and they can be taught to be played in time... or stepped in time

but having "rhythm" in a sense of that inner funk.....that groove... that knowing how to move your body to music in a greasy kind of way .... your body being an extension of the vibrations of music in a Michael Jackson, Steve Jordan kind of way

no I don't believe that can be taught at all

that is something someone is born with or instilled in them from a very early impressionable stage in their life

that doesn't mean someone without that cannot play an instrument or dance well eventually.... it just means they will not have that slinky funk that the person who is naturally more rhythmic has

just one of those facts of life

like the guy awkwardly clapping on 1 and 3 at a Stevie Wonder concert while he stiffly bops back and forth

some people are just awkward rhythmically and there really is no changing it
 
Agree with Tony.

Probably one of those things that we develop in our infant stages.

It's unfortunate for some because we learn so many beats, fills and styles but when we groove we still kinda sound the same as we did in high school.
 
rhythms themselves can be taught ... and they can be taught to be played in time... or stepped in time

but having "rhythm" in a sense of that inner funk.....that groove... that knowing how to move your body to music in a greasy kind of way .... your body being an extension of the vibrations of music in a Michael Jackson, Steve Jordan kind of way

no I don't believe that can be taught at all

that is something someone is born with or instilled in them from a very early impressionable stage in their life

that doesn't mean someone without that cannot play an instrument or dance well eventually.... it just means they will not have that slinky funk that the person who is naturally more rhythmic has

just one of those facts of life

like the guy awkwardly clapping on 1 and 3 at a Stevie Wonder concert while he stiffly bops back and forth

some people are just awkward rhythmically and there really is no changing it


I totally agree with this.

I loved the scenario. Sadly, I think I know some of these types of people. It's probably why I laughed so hard at the painted picture..
 
Yes. If they can conceptualize the spaces between a quarter, half, eighth, sixteenths of an inch then they can learn rhythm.

It's merely points on a line.

Billy, I laughed out loud at this! My fiance and a tape measure, oh dear lord!!!!

I've been very careful to make her think an inch is a very very small measurement! ;)

rhythms themselves can be taught ... and they can be taught to be played in time... or stepped in time

but having "rhythm" in a sense of that inner funk.....that groove... that knowing how to move your body to music in a greasy kind of way .... your body being an extension of the vibrations of music in a Michael Jackson, Steve Jordan kind of way

no I don't believe that can be taught at all

that is something someone is born with or instilled in them from a very early impressionable stage in their life

that doesn't mean someone without that cannot play an instrument or dance well eventually.... it just means they will not have that slinky funk that the person who is naturally more rhythmic has

just one of those facts of life

like the guy awkwardly clapping on 1 and 3 at a Stevie Wonder concert while he stiffly bops back and forth

some people are just awkward rhythmically and there really is no changing it

Yeah i think this is her unfortunate situation. Its funny that a drummer should end up with someone who has no rhythm whatsoever. She is terrrified about our first dance. She wants to go to dance lessons again, but the problem is we will be where we were last time. She needs a more fundamental teaching. dance classes assume you know what rhythm is and can feel it

Agree with Tony.

Probably one of those things that we develop in our infant stages.

It's unfortunate for some because we learn so many beats, fills and styles but when we groove we still kinda sound the same as we did in high school.

I attribute that quite heavily to the first music that influenced us and I'm sure I once read a study on the music you listen to in your teens having a fundamental impact on you for the rest of your life. But I agree there is some element of inate groove that you fall back to.
 
Cool thread -

I too have a rhythmically challenged wife. It is funny to because she is not white and thinks that BECAUSE she is not white that she has rhythm - (insert loud buzzer noise) not the case. While not a train wreck rhythmically speaking she does not possess the natural rhythm that Tony was talking about and that we all know and recognize - but she thinks she does, which is both wonderful and extremely funny (think Elaine from Seinfeld only browner).

Also when I was a young'n I used to just devour old R&B and early rock and roll records. My Dad gave me probably 100 or so old 45's from his high school days and the old man, while not a musician had some good tastes. My younger brother did not share my love of these old records preferring to listen to his (and mine I should say) collection of KISS albums. Fast forward years later - before he died my brother was a rhythm-less soul, couldn't walk and chew gum at the same time and he danced like the stereotypical white guy. While I do not enjoy dancing at all (I never ever ever dance) I feel like I do have a good sense of natural rhythm. Case in point - when i first started drum lessons I was noodling around on the student kit - not knowing what I was doing really. My teacher said "Where did you learn that?" I asked - "Learn what?". Teacher says - "How to swing the beat like that." I replied back "uh?"....

NOT bragging - just saying I think that listening to all of those old Little Richard records might have hooked me up a bit.... ...and oh how I love to wear makeup and gold lemay
 
We need to be careful not to confuse correlation with causation. If an adult hasn't yet learned rhythm, he/she most likely won't. It's possible that such a thing is more easily learned at a young age, but it's also possible that the individual self-identifies as being rhythmically challenged, and/or doesn't have the time or environment necessary to support the learning process, and/or doesn't have any real motivation.

I have seen students learn the "Steve Jordan Michael Jackson" groove thing, in person, and more than once, and I have also successfully taught drummers who had trouble just "feeling the beat". The vast majority, however, don't learn, not because it's impossible, but because they have already decided to not learn, and/or because their life circumstances don't permit it. Strangely, one student hears the "Steve Jordan Michael Jackson" groove thing, and has learned to play it a little, but just doesn't like it, saying she prefers quantized, evenly-spaced perfection. Until there's a paying gig or band she likes that demands she play that way, she probably won't learn it.

Neuroscience is still murky on the subject, but rhythm and musical detection is located primarily in the cerebellum, which evolved much earlier than other "higher" brain structures (cortex, etc.). So, it makes more sense that the capacity for rhythm exists in everyone, including primates. Indeed, patients with disorders affecting the higher structures (Altzheimer's) can usually perform on their musical instruments without any problem, even though they might not remember learning the instrument.

If your childhood and family life did not regularly and socially involve dynamic, challenging, interactive musical experiences (singing, dancing, playing instruments) on a daily basis (the reality of most musicians), then you will not have developed the capacity at an early age. For a child it's somewhat common to have this musical experience, but how practical is it for an adult to engage actively in this way for hours every day? You can't fairly compare the results of an adult taking lessons once a week to the child who has had music, held in a variety of contexts and activities, for many, many hours, all of his/her life. The learning we do when we're young is immersive and challenging and regular; the learning we do when we're older, well, we barely have time for it. It makes more sense to blame life in general, and not the individual or biology. Besides, as a teacher, it does no good to start labeling things as impossible to learn.
 
We need to be careful not to confuse correlation with causation. If an adult hasn't yet learned rhythm, he/she most likely won't. It's possible that such a thing is more easily learned at a young age, but it's also possible that the individual self-identifies as being rhythmically challenged, and/or doesn't have the time or environment necessary to support the learning process, and/or doesn't have any real motivation.

I have seen students learn the "Steve Jordan Michael Jackson" groove thing, in person, and more than once, and I have also successfully taught drummers who had trouble just "feeling the beat". The vast majority, however, don't learn, not because it's impossible, but because they have already decided to not learn, and/or because their life circumstances don't permit it. Strangely, one student hears the "Steve Jordan Michael Jackson" groove thing, and has learned to play it a little, but just doesn't like it, saying she prefers quantized, evenly-spaced perfection. Until there's a paying gig or band she likes that demands she play that way, she probably won't learn it.

Neuroscience is still murky on the subject, but rhythm and musical detection is located primarily in the cerebellum, which evolved much earlier than other "higher" brain structures (cortex, etc.). So, it makes more sense that the capacity for rhythm exists in everyone, including primates. Indeed, patients with disorders affecting the higher structures (Altzheimer's) can usually perform on their musical instruments without any problem, even though they might not remember learning the instrument.

If your childhood and family life did not regularly and socially involve dynamic, challenging, interactive musical experiences (singing, dancing, playing instruments) on a daily basis (the reality of most musicians), then you will not have developed the capacity at an early age. For a child it's somewhat common to have this musical experience, but how practical is it for an adult to engage actively in this way for hours every day? You can't fairly compare the results of an adult taking lessons once a week to the child who has had music, held in a variety of contexts and activities, for many, many hours, all of his/her life. The learning we do when we're young is immersive and challenging and regular; the learning we do when we're older, well, we barely have time for it. It makes more sense to blame life in general, and not the individual or biology. Besides, as a teacher, it does no good to start labeling things as impossible to learn.

it is clear that you have completely misunderstood what I meant by "...in a Michael Jackson, Steve Jordan kind of way"

has absolutely zero to do with ... quantized, non quantized , evenly or unevenly spaced perfection or imperfection..., or anything to do with playing any instrument whatsoever for that matter

it is something internal that cannot be taught ... like natural athleticism, or something you do not have to work to achieve... it is just there waiting to be nurtured if you are so inclined to nurture it

we are not all created equal... and some are just born with a natural greasy pulse and their bodies are just naturally in tune with rhythm like the oceans to the moon

I teach children and adults everyday.... a few of them have it but most do not

this does not mean they cannot learn to play ... or dance... or whatever rhythmic adventure they desire to embark on

it just means they will never have a certain flow about what they do that the people blessed with this natural ability have

having this doesn't make you better or worse at what you do.... but it sure as hell is noticeable when it is there

and it cannot be taught in any way shape or form

and anyone who thinks it can is talking about something all together different than I am
 
There's a saying, "Time doesn't exist, clocks exist."

Rhythm can't be taught if the student doesn't know how to listen to it. Train the ears, train the player.
 
There's a saying, "Time doesn't exist, clocks exist."

Rhythm can't be taught if the student doesn't know how to listen to it. Train the ears, train the player.

Whomever said that doesn't understand relativity.... (I don't understand relativity either)
 
Anything can be taught. Some people have more natural ability than others.

We've all seen the videos of young kids, even babies that just naturally groove.

We've also seen the audience members that can't even clap along at the right time.
 
Which led me to think of something interesting. Can rhythm be taught and how would you go about it?

Is it likely hidden within and just needs unlocking?

The answer is probably more nuanced than a simple "some have it, some don't". You might be on to something by saying that it "just needs unlocking".

Relating tasks to motions and movements that we can already do (speaking aloud, clapping, foot tapping, etc.) is really at the heart of the learning process. Salsa dancing is a bit sophisticated for the novice, though, and it's based on music that is exotic to most North Americans. Maybe a bit of experience with simpler dancing would ease the transition, but by now her confidence is probably low.
 
Train the ears, train the player.

It's funny, sometimes you'll notice that training the player also trains the ears. A student will swear on his/her life that what they're playing is 100% accurate, when it's obviously not. Some time later, after having developed more skills, that same student will listen and be surprised at how wrong they were.
 
I guess not everyone will achieve high artistry with it, but it can be taught to anyone who is interested in learning it. Some people might need more motivation, and more and better instruction on it than others. I think people should withhold judgment of their own abilities until they've actually made a serious effort at doing a thing, so this is kind of a useless question to me.
 
Yes...with enough time and energy invested.

Would your relationship survive it?...dunno...

The how is specific to the individual...and not something I would invest time in detailing here other than to say that learning about learning theory is VERY useful in life.

At any rate, let her set the tempo and intensity of the learning lest the page be torn.
 
I watched a couple dancing the other night. They were dancing the swing.
They were really really good. The guy was throwing that girl all over the place. It was fantastic dancing !

However, their steps were not to the beat of the music ?!?!

I have seen this many times before. The couples are dancing up a storm and really enjoying themselves. But not to the beat of the music.

I could never dance like that without stepping to the beat.
I guess I'm missing the point of dancing...........

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