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  #1  
Old 05-17-2018, 08:19 PM
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Default No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

So,,,, I am an old guy (45) and I have been playing drums for 5 months now.

I have no natural talent for drumming or music, but I do love to drum.

My skills have improved 1000%, but honestly, I am still pretty terrible.

Is there a chance that a no talent guy will ever be good at drums?

Of course, I do love playing my Roland drums and won't give it up, I'm just looking at my expectations of what I will be able to do in the future.
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  #2  
Old 05-17-2018, 08:52 PM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

Recommendation: practice with actual music and actual music you like. CDs or some other media and a headset.

I recommend playing with a LOT of blues. Basic 4 on floor and triplet shuffles. Go to ride on guitar/harp/other instrument solos, and learn to do fills as they go to solos. Then a fill and back to hats when singer comes back in. Some of it may swing a bit, which is a different pattern. Some may use second line/Bo Diddley beat, too. Most of it will be 4 on floor blues shuffles, though. Learn to nail the snare on he 2 and 4. Play with the music. I think a lot of people make mistake of playing in isolation, or get too worked up about proper technique. The old blues cats just picked up sticks and played, and learned to play with other musicians. Kinda organic. Do that for a month and you'll have a lotta fun and be a lot better player. This is probably the easiest path to enhancing your playing, plus it's fun!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beefsock View Post
So,,,, I am an old guy (45) and I have been playing drums for 5 months now.

I have no natural talent for drumming or music, but I do love to drum.

My skills have improved 1000%, but honestly, I am still pretty terrible.

Is there a chance that a no talent guy will ever be good at drums?

Of course, I do love playing my Roland drums and won't give it up, I'm just looking at my expectations of what I will be able to do in the future.
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  #3  
Old 05-17-2018, 09:40 PM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

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Originally Posted by Beefsock View Post
..I have no natural talent for drumming or music, but I do love to drum.

My skills have improved 1000%, but honestly, I am still pretty terrible..

If you skills have improved that much, then why would you say that you have no talent..?

Plus you should always be aware of with who you are comparing yourself when saying that you play bad, since not many people will sound completely awesome after only 5 months and there are people who allready play 40 years and still sound awfull..

Like Rattlin' Bones said, just keep practicing, maybe get a teacher if thats possible and just give yourself a few years..And then who knows..
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Old 05-17-2018, 10:03 PM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rattlin' Bones View Post
Recommendation: practice with actual music and actual music you like. CDs or some other media and a headset.
This for development.

Once you feel up to it, try and play with people as much as you can. Playing to CD's and whatnot are fine, but nothing beats interacting with others & bouncing musical ideas off each other.

Like Bones mentioned, blues (and country) will help with the basics. You'll see that translate to real playing with people more often than not.

Good luck brother!
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Old 05-17-2018, 10:21 PM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

Play with people sooner rather than later. It's the most fun you can have with your pants on.

Playing music requires a mix of talent and work. Anybody can play music, but the amount of work needed to reach any given level differs from person to person. And it may be that raw talent is only relevant for rank beginners (making picking up an instrument easy) and virtuosi (enabling them to reach lofty heights).

For most of us, attitude determines altitude.
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Old 05-17-2018, 10:27 PM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

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Originally Posted by JustJames View Post
Play with people sooner rather than later. It's the most fun you can have with your pants on.
If you've got some scissors and are willing to cut the pants up this statement can be fully disregarded.
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Old 05-17-2018, 11:18 PM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

I say don't hold yourself to "expectations". Just do it, and have fun. Find people to play with, or if not, play to tracks.
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Old 05-18-2018, 01:38 AM
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  #8  
Old 05-18-2018, 01:48 AM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

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If you've got some scissors and are willing to cut the pants up this statement can be fully disregarded.
...and it's even more exciting if you are wearing the pants at the time.


And now, back to our scheduled programming...
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  #9  
Old 05-18-2018, 04:23 PM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

5 months really isn't much time. I think it takes 2 years to sound OK on drums.
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  #10  
Old 05-18-2018, 07:10 PM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

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Originally Posted by No Way Jose View Post
5 months really isn't much time. I think it takes 2 years to sound OK on drums.
Met a guy at an open jam last week who was really good, had fantastic taste and kept great time, I was impressed, and I'm usually not by new guys at a jam who tend to pull all their tricks out to show off.

Talked to him the next time he showed up and learned he hadn't even been playing for 3 years yet.

Moral of the story? Get a teacher. You'll go so, so much faster when you start out with good habits and guidance. Once you get things down to a basic level, technique really isn't as important as musicianship, but if you start out with good technique, you can focus on the stuff that really makes you a good drummer sooner.
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Old 05-18-2018, 07:26 PM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

Yeah. 5 months isn't much time to get comfortable behind a kit.

You probably have 100x the patience of most kids, so with some propper guidance and dedication the world is your oyster.

Whatever general knowledge you already have in music is relevant, though. That's a big deal, so don't skimp on that if you want to get serious.
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  #12  
Old 05-18-2018, 08:30 PM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

If you have natural talent, I think a few years could get you somewhere.

I started playing drums at 12, and was playing gigs at 14. I did have some lessons, and I did get a lot of practice in my dad's band, at the time.
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  #13  
Old 05-18-2018, 09:56 PM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

Its never to late to be a satisfied and accomplished drummer.(within reason..e.g. death bed is a bit late : )
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  #14  
Old 05-18-2018, 10:38 PM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

I've been doing a lot of reading lately on the topic, and there's been a lot of research indicating that "natural talent" is simply not a thing. Some people may take to things a bit quicker in the early days, but in the long run it boils down to who put in the practice time.

My point is: just keep going. You have as much opportunity to be good (per hour of practice) as anyone. I'm about your age and the only obstacle I see is not having enough time left (period) to get where I want to be. Nothing other than that.

What we have in our favor is increased attention span. My son can't practice anything more than 20 minutes before he's back on some screen or something. I have a plan and drill down on my weak spots relentlessly. I have faith it will pay off.
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  #15  
Old 05-18-2018, 11:45 PM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

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Originally Posted by Mastiff View Post
I've been doing a lot of reading lately on the topic, and there's been a lot of research indicating that "natural talent" is simply not a thing. Some people may take to things a bit quicker in the early days, but in the long run it boils down to who put in the practice time.
Total nonsense. Some people are just pre-disposed to being better at certain things. It can be how your body or mind are made up or work, or it can be genetic in some cases.

Maybe we're just confusing terms, because I do believe that natural talent only goes so far and just gives you a bit of an edge... You still have to work at things to be really great, but basically, you have a higher ceiling and well as learning quick generally on the topic.

Music is in fact one of those areas... Some people are just good at it from the start... The way their brain processes and digests the musical information is just superior. In the most extreme cases we call them savants. It's not much different from the kids who can absorb and utilize mathematical complexities easier. Went to grade school with a kid like that. At the age of a third grader he could do math in his head while we checked on a calculator.
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  #16  
Old 05-18-2018, 11:55 PM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

I'm not sure what I could say to convince you besides pointing you to 3-4 books on the subject. They've spent a lot of time researching top performers in music, athletics and chess, among other things. They have not ever identified anything genetic (outside of having to be tall for basketball, or whatever) to separate these people, and more importantly, they have never found anyone who got out of putting in many thousands of hours of practice.

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Total nonsense. Some people are just pre-disposed to being better at certain things. It can be how your body or mind are made up or work, or it can be genetic in some cases.

Maybe we're just confusing terms, because I do believe that natural talent only goes so far and just gives you a bit of an edge... You still have to work at things to be really great, but basically, you have a higher ceiling and well as learning quick generally on the topic.

Music is in fact one of those areas... Some people are just good at it from the start... The way their brain processes and digests the musical information is just superior. In the most extreme cases we call them savants. It's not much different from the kids who can absorb and utilize mathematical complexities easier. Went to grade school with a kid like that. At the age of a third grader he could do math in his head while we checked on a calculator.
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  #17  
Old 05-19-2018, 12:00 AM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

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Originally Posted by Mastiff View Post
I'm not sure what I could say to convince you besides pointing you to 3-4 books on the subject. They've spent a lot of time researching top performers in music, athletics and chess, among other things. They have not ever identified anything genetic (outside of having to be tall for basketball, or whatever) to separate these people, and more importantly, they have never found anyone who got out of putting in many thousands of hours of practice.
Like I said, to me "natural talent" doesn't mean you don't have to practice doing things... It just means by default you're better at it than someone else you're compared to.

You can't tell me if we line up 10 people and all have them do the same (new) things, that they would all end up doing them at the same efficiency/level right away... Some people are just better at certain things. Sometimes it's physical, like being better at a sport because of how your body is built, sometimes it's mental, like having a brain structure and makeup that allows you to have an easier time processing math as in my last example.

In both cases, there would still be immense benefit to practicing those skills, and in fact, those with more inherent talent will most likely benefit even more from that practice. Talent and automatic mastery are just not the same thing.
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Old 05-19-2018, 12:13 AM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

Well, not only have they not found anyone who "got out of" putting in lots of practice, the correlations with practice are huge. I think I put this in another post, but one of the original studies along these lines was of world class violin players at a Berlin conservatory. With the help of the instructors, they ranked all the solo performance players and put them into two categories, then added a third category for people in the teaching program. IIRC, there was about 2000 hours difference in total practice between each of the groups (something like 3000, 5000, and 7000 hours). Importantly though, there were none in the top group who got by with 5000 and nobody in the mid group that got by with 3000. I'm getting these numbers from memory, but you get the point. Nobody required half the practice to get to the same place or something like that.

Sorry, long winded. To your point, people with high IQ or other innate things can pick up things faster, but the advantage quickly dissipates as everyone moves out of the novice category. For example, they studied chess players and found that high IQ people were superior when they were kids and recently learned the game. As they all advanced, the difference diminished and even reversed (speculation being that lower IQ people developed practice habits early on and continued to benefit from them). Grand masters in chess do not, on average, have remarkable IQs.

So yes, I'd agree that some people will "take" to drums quicker than others, but by the time any of them are actually good, let alone great, that will become irrelevant. The one caveat I'd add is that people who have a harder time early on may get discouraged, or receive less external encouragement from others, and so practice less or quit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
Like I said, to me "natural talent" doesn't mean you don't have to practice doing things... It just means by default you're better at it than someone else you're compared to.

You can't tell me if we line up 10 people and all have them do the same (new) things, that they would all end up doing them at the same efficiency/level right away... Some people are just better at certain things. Sometimes it's physical, like being better at a sport because of how your body is built, sometimes it's mental, like having a brain structure and makeup that allows you to have an easier time processing math as in my last example.

In both cases, there would still be immense benefit to practicing those skills, and in fact, those with more inherent talent will most likely benefit even more from that practice. Talent and automatic mastery are just not the same thing.
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  #19  
Old 05-19-2018, 12:39 AM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

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So yes, I'd agree that some people will "take" to drums quicker than others, but by the time any of them are actually good, let alone great, that will become irrelevant. The one caveat I'd add is that people who have a harder time early on may get discouraged, or receive less external encouragement from others, and so practice less or quit.
Right, so this is just a disagreement about what talent means as a word. I'll just leave this to say that even after 20 years of all different types of drumset study, and even teaching some folks myself, I see lots of differences in how quickly even advanced students pick up and apply concepts and techniques. Some people just have a brain that makes certain things easier for them to do than someone with a different brain make-up.

With hard work, almost anyone can be a master at something they want to attack, but I just know for fact that some people have to work less hard to get to the same places. It's part of what makes us individuals. We are not all the same, and everyone has their own set of both talents and things they aren't inherently good for/at. Some people for example are just natural sales people... They come into a sales force and outsell people who work 10 times harder because they simply have an innate talent for that set of skills matched with a charisma they've had since childhood. On the flip side, there's people like me who have an extremely hard time with that type of thing, and while they might eventually learn the same skills and practice/work to the point I outsold that hot-shot, I would know how difficult that was for me.

It would be a very boring world if we were all so similar that talent wasn't a real thing. Again, I think we're just defining the word differently.

I also think there might be some authors who are very butt-hurt they don't have many interesting talents.
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Old 05-19-2018, 01:02 AM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

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I also think there might be some authors who are very butt-hurt they don't have many interesting talents.
I was discussing this at lunch today and someone said basically the same thing. I don't see it that way at all. I see these studies more along the lines of "quit your bitchin' and get to work". To me, they say that you have no real compelling excuse for not being good, and if someone is better than you, they wanted it more and tried harder. If you can chalk it all up to genetics, that gives you the excuse you need to give up and fail.
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Old 05-19-2018, 03:30 AM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

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..people with high IQ or other innate things can pick up things faster, but the advantage quickly dissipates as everyone moves out of the novice category..

..The one caveat I'd add is that people who have a harder time early on may get discouraged, or receive less external encouragement from others, and so practice less or quit..

Am i correct when assuming that the books that you read about the subject and the (interesting) theories are all having in common that they only focus on the 'mechanical' aspect of playing drums or any other instrument..?

But what about playing with taste..?

Is taste also something that can be 'learned' just by putting those 1000's of hours or is the taste-part maybe the part that seperates the real talents from the others..?

I mean, i can relate to the theory that basically everyone can become Colaiuta in a technical way with practicing 10 hours/day, but can everyone also become Colaiuta in knowing how to apply that technique regarding tasteful and musical playing..?

Thats to me the real (kinda retorical) question regarding talent..
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Old 05-19-2018, 04:33 AM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

Well, you don't "just" put in the hours, like doing time in prison or something. They have a very specific thing in mind with purposeful practice. Just doing things over and over that you can already do does not count.

The books generally talk about fields that can be measured or about which there is common agreement on what constitutes being good. In the music area, mostly classical violin and piano type stuff. I'm fairly ignorant in that area, but would experts consider a violin player to be excellent if they had no taste or sense of music? I doubt it.

Besides, I see no reason why having taste and being a good musician wouldn't be learned through practice like everything else. What's the alternative?

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Am i correct when assuming that the books that you read about the subject and the (interesting) theories are all having in common that they only focus on the 'mechanical' aspect of playing drums or any other instrument..?

But what about playing with taste..?

Is taste also something that can be 'learned' just by putting those 1000's of hours or is the taste-part maybe the part that seperates the real talents from the others..?

I mean, i can relate to the theory that basically everyone can become Colaiuta in a technical way with practicing 10 hours/day, but can everyone also become Colaiuta in knowing how to apply that technique regarding tasteful and musical playing..?

Thats to me the real (kinda retorical) question regarding talent..
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Old 05-19-2018, 05:00 AM
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..Besides, I see no reason why having taste and being a good musician wouldn't be learned through practice like everything else. What's the alternative?..

Thats exactly what i mean..

To me that alternative is what i would call 'talent'..To have the talent for having the ears and to know how to use them..

With classical music i am definately also not an expert, but when speaking about violin players in that area, except the solo-players, i guess each of them is kinda supposed to play in the same sort of way when playing in an orchestra and that 'same sort of way' is kinda decided by the written notation and the interpretation of the conductor..

To me thats not the same like playing drums in non-classical music..Playing drums in non-classical music is in my opinion much more about having the ears than about having the technique..And that talent, in my opinion, will not necessarily be learned equally during those 1000's of hours in comparison with the technique-part..

Ofcourse you can train yourself in 'getting the ears' by listening to all of those people who have them..But then still, to be able to understand and apply the lesson at the right time, thats what i call talent..
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Old 05-19-2018, 12:22 PM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

When you listen to music, mentally picture yourself behind a kit and playing the drum part yourself. Picture what each limb is doing to the point you can almost feel your brain giving the command for each movement. Believe it or not, this will help quite a bit with your skills. Many professional athletes do this as part of their routine.
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Old 05-19-2018, 12:30 PM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

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Total nonsense. Some people are just pre-disposed to being better at certain things. It can be how your body or mind are made up or work, or it can be genetic in some cases.

Maybe we're just confusing terms, because I do believe that natural talent only goes so far and just gives you a bit of an edge... You still have to work at things to be really great, but basically, you have a higher ceiling and well as learning quick generally on the topic.

Music is in fact one of those areas... Some people are just good at it from the start... The way their brain processes and digests the musical information is just superior. In the most extreme cases we call them savants. It's not much different from the kids who can absorb and utilize mathematical complexities easier. Went to grade school with a kid like that. At the age of a third grader he could do math in his head while we checked on a calculator.
Many, many books and research papers say you're wrong. I'd recommend reading Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell or Bounce! by Matthew Syed. The latter is a former world table tennis champ who got sick of people telling him he had natural talent. He practised since he was a child, all day every day. That's basically the thesis of his book, and he goes into it in depth.
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Old 05-19-2018, 01:43 PM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

Just remember it always more fun playing with others than just playing with yourself-wait that didn't come out right-or did it????? But musical talent is something like 50% genetic (tone deafness genetic even more so), remember there are musical prodigies so they exhibit "natural" talent at an early age (like mathematical prodigies), but most of the greats do spend hours practicing. Theory of the mind makes me wonder if what a musician hears and creates is that what everyone else hears (like the Lanny and Laurel). I've also read that at least a third of the population of the planet have minor cognitive defects that go undetected. Makes me wonder bout myself since I heard "Yelly" rather than Lanny or Laurel.
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Old 05-19-2018, 02:58 PM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

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I've also read that at least a third of the population of the planet have minor cognitive defects that go undetected.
Thank goodness, I'm not alone then.

On topic, all the best replies have been given. And glad for you that drumming gives you such pleasure, Beefsock. That's the most important part. Just for a moment I'd love to experience again that intial excitement!
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Old 05-19-2018, 03:47 PM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

We're all different and there's a way that will work for anyone.

I probably fit the category of quite a bit above average IQ. Does it help with my drumming. I don't really think so. With teaching and leadership skills, a bit more.

The concept of smart kids getting lazy in the long run is true. Seen that a lot. At a more advanced level you simply have to put the work in. Figure out your own learning modality and stickk with it. As a teacher and writer of my own methology though, especially with younger students, it's my job to understand them all. Completely different scenario.

Drumming is just partly about getting a concept. Spending enough time with it to master, make it feel and sound good, getting your transitions smooth, adopting a new musical style etc.. all takes time.

I easily get 1000 new ideas before I master 1, so running out of ideas of things to practie is hardly an issue.

Wanna get the most out of our time? Keep a log and just sit down with it once in a while. A good plan will emerge and no one can do that better than youself. Provided you're able to look at your own skills somewhat objectively, of course.

Teaching yourself how to play is easy.

Teaching 50-60 kids and getting through to them is sometimes more like being a parent. lol
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  #29  
Old 05-19-2018, 05:24 PM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

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Originally Posted by Trigger View Post
Many, many books and research papers say you're wrong. I'd recommend reading Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell or Bounce! by Matthew Syed. The latter is a former world table tennis champ who got sick of people telling him he had natural talent. He practised since he was a child, all day every day. That's basically the thesis of his book, and he goes into it in depth.
I'm reading Bounce now and really like it. "Peak" is by the researcher who is the source of much of this, but is a great read and highly recommended. "Talent Code" is another good one. I recommend these to everyone here since I personally found them very motivating. What could be more de-motivating than the idea that some people are just pre-gifted with the ability to easily outshine everyone else?

Since these were mentioned: Research indicates that child prodigies are not a real thing (they simply started earlier and put in more time) and that perfect pitch is not genetic, but can be taught/trained, though it needs to be taught at a young age. Also, "tone deafness" is practically non-existent. They found a person with it and researchers flocked to her because it was so novel.
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Old 05-19-2018, 06:28 PM
cornelius cornelius is offline
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

I read the Talent Code - great book! Thereís definitely a lot to be said about hard work, proper instruction and proper practice.

But, I still believe thereís some innate talent that some people have that sets them apart. I donít know what it is - there are child prodigies who play better than many adults who play well, and have put in the time. I donít know if these kids are old souls or what - a child just hasnít been alive long enough to put in enough hours, or draw from personal life experiences to perform the way that they do.

Over time, Iíve seen people who are ahead of the curve early on, get lazy or disinterested and over time, everyone else catches up. But those advantaged people who put in the time and work, take off on a trajectory that leaves the rest of the pack behind.
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Old 05-19-2018, 06:34 PM
cornelius cornelius is offline
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

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Originally Posted by Beefsock View Post
So,,,, I am an old guy (45) and I have been playing drums for 5 months now.

I have no natural talent for drumming or music, but I do love to drum.

My skills have improved 1000%, but honestly, I am still pretty terrible.

Is there a chance that a no talent guy will ever be good at drums?

Of course, I do love playing my Roland drums and won't give it up, I'm just looking at my expectations of what I will be able to do in the future.
Sorry forgot to get back on topic - although our discussion about things like the Talent Code book are indirect answers that you can get good at drums.

What are your goals - do you want to play in a band? What kind of music do you like to play?
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  #32  
Old 05-19-2018, 08:10 PM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

Reading through this thread it occurs to me that people get hung up on getting good too much, to the detriment of the real reason we play drums.

What is the real reason we play drums? To get good? I hope there's a lot more to it than that.

The best way I found to play drums, is to put everyone else's needs first. Period. I like giving the singer the low volume they need to sing well. I like listening to the soloist and understanding where they want to go, and help them get there. I like giving an audience a steady beat that they can lose themselves in. I like interweaving the rhythm with the bass player. I could go on and on. I get major respect from musicians and audience members alike with this approach. I can say it really works, for me anyway. It's all about a drummers attitude and how much they can give to others.

I see people approach the drumset from an "outside in" perspective, where they are looking for ego stroking, outside adulation....first. IMO this is where the wheels come off. These things need to be earned.

If anyone plays drums from this perspective...and I believe we all pass through that door...what I'm saying is that at some point, we must move past that low point. As much ego as possible needs to be shed, and an attitude of "I'm going to provide the other musicians...and the audience...with a custom tailored version of what they need/crave/want from a drummer.

Great feeling time, great tempo sense, 100% confidence, plenty of headroom, really great volume control, big ears, complimenting singers and soloists and the rhythm section with what they need, basically being like Dad to everyone and making sure everything runs smooth. The whole band is rolling on our wheels, let's give them a smooth ride.

Nowhere in the above paragraph is a reference to a playing fast, being able to do 16th notes at 200 BPM with your forehead on the snare drum, none of that. It's more of a human experience that hopefully transcends the notes played. Drumming/playing music is a spiritual, human thing, not an exercise in technicalities.

If this is done, all the perks that we are all seeking (ego stroking, outside adulation) will come without effort. Hey I'm not saying those things are bad, I'm saying if that is one of the desired outcomes, it's most easily achieved by playing for everyone else's benefit like 95% of the time.

So in the end, it's not a person's technique or mastery of rudiments...it's really a very basic human desire to "help everyone else out" with the drums that people sit up and really notice.

I do realize that one must practice, but for Pete's sake, don't lose sight of the REAL power of the drums. If you understand what the others need, and give it to them, wow does it come back.

That's my thought for the day.
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Last edited by larryace; 05-19-2018 at 09:26 PM.
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  #33  
Old 05-19-2018, 09:00 PM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Reading through this thread it occurs to me that people get hung up on getting good too much, to the detriment of the real reason we play drums.

What is the real reason we play drums? To get good? I hope there's a lot more to it than that.

The best way I found to play drums, is to put everyone else's needs first. Period. I like giving the singer the low volume they need to sing well. I like listening to the soloist and understanding where they want to go, and help them get there. I like giving an audience a steady beat that they can lose themselves in. I like interweaving the rhythm with the bass player. I could go on and on. I get major respect from musicians and audience members alike with this approach. I can say it really works, for me anyway. It's all about a drummers attitude and how much they can give to others.

I see people approach the drumset from an "outside in" perspective, where they are looking for ego stroking, outside adulation....first. IMO this is where the wheels come off. These things need to be earned.

If anyone plays drums from this perspective...and I believe we all pass through that door...what I'm saying is that at some point, we must move past that low point. As much ego as possible needs to be shed, and an attitude of "I'm going to provide the other musicians...and the audience...with a custom tailored version of what they need/crave/want from a drummer.

Great feeling time, great tempo sense, 100% confidence, plenty of headroom, really great volume control, big ears, complimenting singers and soloists and the rhythm section with what they need, basically being like Dad to everyone and making sure everything runs smooth. The whole band is rolling on our wheels, let's give them a smooth ride.

Nowhere in the above paragraph is a reference to a playing fast, being able to do 16th notes at 200 BPM with your forehead on the snare drum, none of that. It's more of a human experience that hopefully transcends the notes played. Drumming/playing music is a spiritual, human thing, not an exercise in technicalities.

If this is done, all the perks that we are all seeking (ego stroking, outside adulation) will come without effort. Hey I'm not saying those things are bad, I'm saying if that is one of the desired outcomes, it's most easily achieved by playing for everyone else's benefit like 95% of the time.

So in the end, it's not a person's technique or mastery of rudiments...it's really a very basic human desire to "help everyone else out" with the drums that people sit up and really notice.

That's my thought for the day.
Larry, I haven't been on here for, like, ages, but did I ever tell you that I love you? (I know I did, but I love you even more now.) I'd replace "Dad" with "Mum", obviously :)
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Old 05-19-2018, 09:14 PM
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Dr_Watso Dr_Watso is offline
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

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Originally Posted by Trigger View Post
Many, many books and research papers say you're wrong. I'd recommend reading Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell or Bounce! by Matthew Syed. The latter is a former world table tennis champ who got sick of people telling him he had natural talent. He practised since he was a child, all day every day. That's basically the thesis of his book, and he goes into it in depth.
I think the biggest weakness of these studies is that they focus too much on data(collected in weird/biased ways) and ignore what's right in their faces. I'm assuming here that the studies are attempting to prove that "talent" does not exist... Anyway, the studies look at the very top of a field and then study downward. But that's backwards. Talent does not at all guarantee success or mastery. So people assuming that the guy in your example had "natural talent" because he was among the best was perhaps indeed a false assumption.

But you'll never convince me that people don't have natural talents for things compared to other people. Every single human is different. Not one of us has the same neural connections firing in anything like the same order as anyone else. This literally mandates that we will all learn and do new things in different ways and at different rates.

I don't need a study to tell me that. I can tell by not being an idiot and observing myself and others; that I learn certain types of things and new concepts more efficiently than others. I don't do so well in purely memory related tasks, but spacial tasks and logical problems are relatively easy for me to work out. Some things I have to work harder at than other people to be at the same level. Playing to my talents is effective when I have a goal.
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  #35  
Old 05-19-2018, 09:22 PM
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larryace larryace is offline
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

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Larry, I haven't been on here for, like, ages, but did I ever tell you that I love you? (I know I did, but I love you even more now.) I'd replace "Dad" with "Mum", obviously :)
Thank you darling. I love you too and hope to see you next year.
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  #36  
Old 05-20-2018, 10:20 AM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

Well, it seems all these posts has scared off the TS...or he is too busy practicing... ;-)

Just my $.02: if you like to play drums, just play drums, enjoy it and don't care too much about the rest.
Don't start comparing yourself with a 3 year old on YouTube playing drums better after 12 minutes than you after 5 months.
It is no competition and you don't have to make a living with it.
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Old 05-20-2018, 03:34 PM
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Alex Sanguinetti Alex Sanguinetti is offline
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

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Originally Posted by Beefsock View Post
Is there a chance that a no talent guy will ever be good at drums?
Hi Beefsock,

Some people here advise you to play with your favorite CDs or to play with others as much as you can, but that is something that you can ONLY do after you have been playing/learning some time, some times only for even a long time, because unless you really dig absolutly basic music (to be able to play along when you are a a beginner) or to play with TERRIBLE BAD GUYS (if you deliver beginner stuff) how would you be able?

You have to get a great teacher (not just a guy who teach drums) and that will put you in the right direction automatically without wasting your time, and YES you CAN become a good drummer...but thatīs your only chance... as far as I see it.

Best regards!
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Old 05-20-2018, 05:56 PM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

I don't agree at all. I think this isn't very good advice.

Playing along to a couple of blues CD is a great way to learn to play. Listen to how the drummer sounds then play along. It's mostly simple shuffles and fills. Basic and fun. The basics. Learning to play along with actual music is a great way to learn to play. It develops your ear. You listen. It's fun. YouTube can show you examples of blues shuffles just get on YouTube and search "Blues Drum Shuffles".

Back in the day if you were a kid you listened to other cats playing then you imitated it. No real lessons. We're so programmed to advice like take lessons you need expert coaching. Man, it's organic. Listen to music and play along. You think those old blues guitar players found a teacher and took lessons? No. Drummers same thing. Listen and play along. That's easy. Then go to some blues open mic jam nites somewhere and listen to the drummers. After a while sign up and sit in.

A teacher can be used later to help refine your playing and work on areas you're having trouble. But all oriented towards actually playing with others.

The OP isn't a 14 year old starting high school and wanting to learn to read music and play in jazz ensemble or marching band. Old hack loving it lol. Play to CD's play along with others and have fun. A teacher and lessons can stifle that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Sanguinetti View Post
Hi Beefsock,

Some people here advise you to play with your favorite CDs or to play with others as much as you can, but that is something that you can ONLY do after you have been playing/learning some time, some times only for even a long time, because unless you really dig absolutly basic music (to be able to play along when you are a a beginner) or to play with TERRIBLE BAD GUYS (if you deliver beginner stuff) how would you be able?

You have to get a great teacher (not just a guy who teach drums) and that will put you in the right direction automatically without wasting your time, and YES you CAN become a good drummer...but thatīs your only chance... as far as I see it.

Best regards!
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  #39  
Old 05-20-2018, 06:33 PM
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Mastiff Mastiff is online now
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

IMO it depends what you want to do. You can take a short cut to the fun stuff, which many of us did, and it will be more fun at first, but you will be limited and may ingrain bad habits. I did this, and now I'm older and realize my fundamentals stink and am playing catch up trying to back fill hand technique and other basics so I can move beyond mid tempo classic rock and the like.

So if you just want to have fun messing around with easy stuff (and I don't mean that in a bad way) it makes sense to avoid the suffering and just dive in. If you think this will be a long term hobby (or something slightly more than that) I'd dig in and establish fundamentals first. Besides, there's no reason you can't screw around playing to CDs for part of your practice time anyway. Do both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rattlin' Bones View Post
I don't agree at all. I think this isn't very good advice.

Playing along to a couple of blues CD is a great way to learn to play. Listen to how the drummer sounds then play along. It's mostly simple shuffles and fills. Basic and fun. The basics. Learning to play along with actual music is a great way to learn to play. It develops your ear. You listen. It's fun. YouTube can show you examples of blues shuffles just get on YouTube and search "Blues Drum Shuffles".

Back in the day if you were a kid you listened to other cats playing then you imitated it. No real lessons. We're so programmed to advice like take lessons you need expert coaching. Man, it's organic. Listen to music and play along. You think those old blues guitar players found a teacher and took lessons? No. Drummers same thing. Listen and play along. That's easy. Then go to some blues open mic jam nites somewhere and listen to the drummers. After a while sign up and sit in.

A teacher can be used later to help refine your playing and work on areas you're having trouble. But all oriented towards actually playing with others.

The OP isn't a 14 year old starting high school and wanting to learn to read music and play in jazz ensemble or marching band. Old hack loving it lol. Play to CD's play along with others and have fun. A teacher and lessons can stifle that.
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Old 05-20-2018, 06:46 PM
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Rattlin' Bones Rattlin' Bones is offline
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

My wife tours the country as a folk musician and also teaches. Guitar. Dulcimer. People show up to her classes and all they want is the tab. They want paper. They learn to play from the paper. They show up at "jams" with huge binders full of paper. But they are learning just how to play what's in front of them. They don't listen. No musical conversation. Now it's evolving into iPads loaded with tab. In her classes she's stopped giving out paper and instead has them learning to listen and imitate her. Much more natural. They learn to listen. Kinda like The Carter's or Jean Ritchie on a front porch listening to elders jam and play.
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