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  #41  
Old 05-20-2018, 07:26 PM
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I like to pick a genre and then try to play along with whatever comes at me. Sometimes it can be quite challenging, yet rewarding!

Jazz, like chemistry, makes my brain hurt.
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  #42  
Old 05-20-2018, 07:33 PM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

View music as a conversation between players - sometimes rehearsed, sometimes not. Be a joyful maker of music that chooses drums as your preferred means of expression. Aside from the essential mechanical basics, use this as a foundation, & you'll find a path to advancement & fulfilment irrespective of ambition or expectation.
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  #43  
Old 05-20-2018, 08:39 PM
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Exactly!

Muddy Waters didn't have a teacher. Robert Johnson. Clark Terry. "Duke" Dejan. They just listened and then played, man.

These days ya gotta have a personal trainer instead of getting your arse out and running. Spinning classes you get in your car drive 20 minutes sit on a stationary bike in a room with 20 other people and "ride" while the spinning instructor tells you when to pedal fast and when to slow down, and then you drive 20 minutes back home, instead of just riding your bike to the store and back. Our society has gone bonkers!

Good Lord just encourage the OP to listen to music and play. He'll get better. Then he can go out and jam with folks.

Your get it, Andy. Find a path to fulfilment irrespective of ambition or expectation! Just play!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
View music as a conversation between players - sometimes rehearsed, sometimes not. Be a joyful maker of music that chooses drums as your preferred means of expression. Aside from the essential mechanical basics, use this as a foundation, & you'll find a path to advancement & fulfilment irrespective of ambition or expectation.
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  #44  
Old 05-20-2018, 11:01 PM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

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Originally Posted by Rattlin' Bones View Post
Exactly!

Muddy Waters didn't have a teacher. Robert Johnson. Clark Terry. "Duke" Dejan. They just listened and then played, man.

These days ya gotta have a personal trainer instead of getting your arse out and running. Spinning classes you get in your car drive 20 minutes sit on a stationary bike in a room with 20 other people and "ride" while the spinning instructor tells you when to pedal fast and when to slow down, and then you drive 20 minutes back home, instead of just riding your bike to the store and back. Our society has gone bonkers!

Good Lord just encourage the OP to listen to music and play. He'll get better. Then he can go out and jam with folks.

Your get it, Andy. Find a path to fulfilment irrespective of ambition or expectation! Just play!!!!
Well said Mr. Bones. I would encourage the OP to invest in some headphones/ isolation type in ear monitors, and play along to music he likes. It will help improve his time/meter, and give him some experience drumming to music, which will help prepare him for playing with real musicians. Not that I'm anything special, but I practiced to records long before I jammed with anyone, and feel like I was somewhat prepared the first time my buddy Nick came over and plugged in his amp.
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  #45  
Old 05-21-2018, 01:05 AM
Sebenza Sebenza is offline
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

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Originally Posted by Rattlin' Bones View Post
Exactly!

Muddy Waters didn't have a teacher. Robert Johnson. Clark Terry. "Duke" Dejan. They just listened and then played, man.

These days ya gotta have a personal trainer instead of getting your arse out and running. Spinning classes you get in your car drive 20 minutes sit on a stationary bike in a room with 20 other people and "ride" while the spinning instructor tells you when to pedal fast and when to slow down, and then you drive 20 minutes back home, instead of just riding your bike to the store and back. Our society has gone bonkers!

Good Lord just encourage the OP to listen to music and play. He'll get better. Then he can go out and jam with folks.

Your get it, Andy. Find a path to fulfilment irrespective of ambition or expectation! Just play!!!!
I blame social media and the youtube thing. You can't just be "very pretty" these days...you're only "very pretty" in the eyes of people when your instagram has x amount of followers. And don't forget to mention on your facebook that you had an orange for breakfast this morning and are seriously contemplating whether or not to have another one this evening...advice needed dear folks, plz...

If, back in the day, you just sat at home and practised your ass off to be able to copy the entire drumtrack to Black Betty, then good for you coz it's not an easy tune for most beginners, but you still had to go out and play with people ...which is the entire point!
These days you can just record yourself 10 times playing that tune, mix up the best bits with some creative splicing (is that still a word these digital days or just a leftover from when folks used tapes?), post it on youtube and be an instant drum hero to your family, friends and potentially thousands across the globe without ever loading your gear up in your car, driving 1.5 hours to a gig with 25 attendants to play with folks you've never met (yes, I've had those phone calls :-)) because you wanted to just play music with other people...which is the entire point!

I remember watching a show years ago, where the engineers present at the recording sessions, discussed famous albums. One of the albums was Electric Ladyland by Hendrix and when recorded parts were played solo, a lot of them sounded practically like rubbish (exaggeration alert!!) but the moment the engineer pulled up the slides on the mixing table to their correct volumes, all those sloppy parts just fell into place to produce that lovely milestone album!

Did Phil Collins get a bit sloppy at times during his drum solo on Nuclear Burn? Yes, he did! Does Herbie Hancock's "Hang up your hang ups" speed up like crazy over the course of the tune? Yes, it did! But I still, very much, prefer those recordings over most of the stuff that is being done today, maybe because I grew up with them or maybe simply cause they were played by imperfect human beings with close to perfect musical instincts...real, actual music!

To the OP, it's literally never too late to try your hand at things in life and if you persevere with the instrument it won't be long before you enjoy playing real music with it, as long as you make an effort to play with other people, cause that's where the real magic presides...
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  #46  
Old 05-21-2018, 02:24 AM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

I don't know you guys. People have gotten better at literally everything over the decades because as time goes on, we collectively learn better ways to do things. This is most apparent in sports (where things that seemed amazing 30 years ago are now routinely done by amateurs) but it certainly applies to drumming as well. Just putting on an album and playing does not plug you in to the collective knowledge of methods of technique and learning that have been honed over the years.

The greats in drumming like Weckl, Steve Smith, Jojo Mayer, etc. didn't get there by hacking at it, they clearly plugged in to the collective knowledge. They also practiced their asses off on basic technique (in addition, of course, to playing real music with other musicians). Some manner of instruction, be it in person or YouTube videos, is required to tap the accumulated knowledge.
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  #47  
Old 05-21-2018, 02:42 AM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

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Originally Posted by Rattlin' Bones View Post
I don't agree at all. I think this isn't very good advice.
Rattlin Bones,

Post a video of your playing!

Last edited by Alex Sanguinetti; 05-21-2018 at 03:04 AM.
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  #48  
Old 05-21-2018, 02:51 AM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rattlin' Bones View Post
Exactly!

Muddy Waters didn't have a teacher. Robert Johnson. Clark Terry. "Duke" Dejan. They just listened and then played, man.
I'm pretty sure Robert Johnson had a mentor....or at least he observed Charley Patton. That would have been a helluva lesson right there.

Everybody learns from someone else. Granted, they took what they learned and greatly expanded on it, but these guys didn't just fall out of the sky.
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  #49  
Old 05-21-2018, 02:53 AM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

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Originally Posted by Mastiff View Post
Weckl, Steve Smith, Jojo Mayer...
Weckl and Smith have a degree from University and studied with many teachers also before and after University.

Jojoīs father is a profesional Jazz Bass Players in Switzerland and musical director. Jojo got instruction with many who played with his father, including Charlie Antolini and others I donĻt know. He was already playing at early age with many Jazz figures, like with Monty Alexander at 17.

Best regards!
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  #50  
Old 05-21-2018, 05:46 AM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

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Originally Posted by Alex Sanguinetti View Post
Rattlin Bones,

Post a video of your playing!

Allthough i am very curious to hear Rattlin' Bones play one time, in my opinion his quality of playing is not relevant for the advice that he gave in this thread..

His quality of playing would be only relevant to me if he would tell everyone constantly how to play blues and how blues-drumming should sound like etc etc..And then when we would see Rattlin' Bones play blues in a kinda crappy way, then would be maybe relevant to criticize him on his opinions about that..
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  #51  
Old 05-21-2018, 07:25 AM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

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Originally Posted by oldskoolsoul View Post
Allthough i am very curious to hear Rattlin' Bones play one time, in my opinion his quality of playing is not relevant for the advice that he gave in this thread..

His quality of playing would be only relevant to me if he would tell everyone constantly how to play blues and how blues-drumming should sound like etc etc..And then when we would see Rattlin' Bones play blues in a kinda crappy way, then would be maybe relevant to criticize him on his opinions about that..
Clap, clap, and a clap. I don't usually agree with Alex or Bones, but I understand what Bones is saying. Alex always comes off as someone who thinks anyone who isn't playing jazz is a piece of mierda, and they need to be able to play bebop or they aren't drummers/percussionists.
Alex, you're good but...
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  #52  
Old 05-21-2018, 09:02 AM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

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Originally Posted by Rattlin' Bones View Post

Your get it, Andy. Find a path to fulfilment irrespective of ambition or expectation! Just play!!!!
Yes, I stand by that, but I also mentioned the basics in my comment about music being a conversation. To have that conversation, you need to learn to speak. Just as in all life's verbal interactions, your vocabulary dictates your ability to converse, or to place it more clearly, a lack of vocabulary limits your conversational choices.

I know this only too well. My own lack of drumming vocabulary limits my options when choosing "what to say" in the conversation, but that doesn't mean I can't converse effectively. I concentrate on the other important aspects of conversation, such as the ability to listen, knowing when to say nothing, to internalise, to adapt, to empathise, etc, etc. The point being, there are many paths to fulfilment, but gaining ability in all aspects improves your chances of enjoyment, absolutely including greater mastery of the basics, & tuition can really help you express yourself so much more effectively.
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  #53  
Old 05-21-2018, 09:15 AM
Sebenza Sebenza is offline
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

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Yes, I stand by that, but I also mentioned the basics in my comment about music being a conversation. To have that conversation, you need to learn to speak. Just as in all life's verbal interactions, your vocabulary dictates your ability to converse, or to place it more clearly, a lack of vocabulary limits your conversational choices.

I know this only too well. My own lack of drumming vocabulary limits my options when choosing "what to say" in the conversation, but that doesn't mean I can't converse effectively. I concentrate on the other important aspects of conversation, such as the ability to listen, knowing when to say nothing, to internalise, to adapt, to empathise, etc, etc. The point being, there are many paths to fulfilment, but gaining ability in all aspects improves your chances of enjoyment, absolutely including greater mastery of the basics, & tuition can really help you express yourself so much more effectively.
Which you basically acquire from listening and playing along to records. In my opinion one of the worst things a beginning drummer can do is get hung up on some certain technique, pattern or fill and then proceed to insert it in every setting possible, as much as possible (which is completely understandable).
What playing along to records will do, is improve your time and feel for the music, which will in turn get you those smiles and nods of approvement from the bass player and the pretty lady singer and an invite to come back to the jam next week. Something that that awesome fill with impeccable technique you got off the youtube might not do...
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  #54  
Old 05-21-2018, 11:13 AM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

Guys (you know if this is for you or not),

The opener says wants to play GODD (please read his post), and to recomend him to play with people and records is PART of the education of a musician, but if you just do that, or atemp to do that [from start ONLY it will take him AGES to play anything.

Then when I say try to study with a great teacher is considered WRONG ADVISE...

Your vision of drumming is less than a hobbie player*...you have to asume that, I mean I have no problem to asume Iīm NOT EVEN hobbie at ALL the rest of the things I do in life, like cooking, computers, or absolutly everything.


The whole thing is so ridiculous that to ask posting your own playing sounds like an insult here, hahah


Itīs rather suspicious...

* Oh, by the way, you can be hobbie player and still be "serious", but thatīs not serious.

Last edited by Alex Sanguinetti; 05-21-2018 at 01:04 PM.
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  #55  
Old 05-21-2018, 02:55 PM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebenza View Post
Which you basically acquire from listening and playing along to records. In my opinion one of the worst things a beginning drummer can do is get hung up on some certain technique, pattern or fill and then proceed to insert it in every setting possible, as much as possible (which is completely understandable).
What playing along to records will do, is improve your time and feel for the music, which will in turn get you those smiles and nods of approvement from the bass player and the pretty lady singer and an invite to come back to the jam next week. Something that that awesome fill with impeccable technique you got off the youtube might not do...
Playing with others, playing along to recordings, utilising tuition - these are not mutually exclusive things. It's not an "either / or" situation, & it's certainly not a "better" situation. You can do all, or some - just depends on your needs, goals, & personal situation.

Just because someone has utilised tuition, doesn't mean they lack a rounded skill set. Sure, tuition in isolation does not make a rounded player, but as a part of a wider spectrum of activities, it can have strong value.
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  #56  
Old 05-21-2018, 04:17 PM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

Just an observation: the TS has not been active here since 10 minutes after he started this thread, even before the 1st reply...
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  #57  
Old 05-21-2018, 05:37 PM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Sanguinetti View Post
Guys (you know if this is for you or not),

The opener says wants to play GODD (please read his post), and to recomend him to play with people and records is PART of the education of a musician, but if you just do that, or atemp to do that [from start ONLY it will take him AGES to play anything.

Then when I say try to study with a great teacher is considered WRONG ADVISE...

Your vision of drumming is less than a hobbie player*...you have to asume that, I mean I have no problem to asume Iīm NOT EVEN hobbie at ALL the rest of the things I do in life, like cooking, computers, or absolutly everything.


The whole thing is so ridiculous that to ask posting your own playing sounds like an insult here, hahah


Itīs rather suspicious...

* Oh, by the way, you can be hobbie player and still be "serious", but thatīs not serious.
Calm down Matador. There are no bulls to wrestle here, just a relaxed, friendly music forum.

Your point would be better made without the grandstanding and competitive challenges to other members.

Leave out all the bold lettering and overly assertive phrasing, then others will be more accepting of your opinion which by the way seems well reasoned.

I think this discussion is becoming slightly too polarised, black and white, right and wrong. Learning intuitively can be good, learning from a mentor or teacher can be good, combining the different approaches might be the most effective and rewarding path to take. Every one has to figure out the right balance of that combination for themselves.
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  #58  
Old 05-21-2018, 08:51 PM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

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Calm down Matador. There are no bulls to wrestle here, just a relaxed, friendly music forum.

Your point would be better made without the grandstanding and competitive challenges to other members.

Leave out all the bold lettering and overly assertive phrasing, then others will be more accepting of your opinion which by the way seems well reasoned.

I think this discussion is becoming slightly too polarised, black and white, right and wrong. Learning intuitively can be good, learning from a mentor or teacher can be good, combining the different approaches might be the most effective and rewarding path to take. Every one has to figure out the right balance of that combination for themselves.
No kidding! I thought playing drums was about having fun! Sheesh...talk about dissecting gossamer...
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  #59  
Old 05-22-2018, 10:29 AM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

If you can keep a steady beat, you have talent.

If you can swing a beat, you have talent.

Its not about how fast you can play or how many chops you can squeeze into a song, its about nailing the groove and driving the band. Other musicians want to play with drummers who are easy to play with,its about being part of the music.
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  #60  
Old 05-22-2018, 10:37 AM
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No kidding! I thought playing drums was about having fun! Sheesh...talk about dissecting gossamer...
This. People learn in different ways and for me the best way to learn is by having fun. If you are trying a learning path and its not fun, for you personally,then find another way. Its music, there is no right or wrong way just your way. Take a list of the most liked and respected drummers and their personal learning experiences will all be different.
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  #61  
Old 05-22-2018, 02:40 PM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

I can improve more in 30 minutes playing with other people than I can 2-3 hours practicing on my own or with MP3s/CDs. Find other people to jam with after you learn a few basics.
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  #62  
Old 05-22-2018, 09:46 PM
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Agreed. Playing with and off others is, for me at least, what being a drummer is all about. I learned to play with my mates, who were learning guitars and bass. We made mistakes, made music, had long extended jam's, eventually wrote our own material and played lots of gigs. None of us ever had a lesson, we learned as we went, thats how it was back in the day. You hear something that inspires you, you take the germ of the groove or idea, run with it and by inspired error make it your own. 50 years on we all still play in different bands. Still never had a lesson, cant read music, but that's just me. Music was always a form of rebellion and someone telling you how to play or what to play was not part of that rebellion.
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  #63  
Old 05-22-2018, 10:05 PM
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I can't wait to get my 2nd kit so my drummer friends can come over and we can both rock the fark out.
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  #64  
Old 05-23-2018, 01:03 AM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

Observing and mentors yes. A formal process with a teacher no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
I'm pretty sure Robert Johnson had a mentor....or at least he observed Charley Patton. That would have been a helluva lesson right there.

Everybody learns from someone else. Granted, they took what they learned and greatly expanded on it, but these guys didn't just fall out of the sky.
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  #65  
Old 05-23-2018, 02:37 AM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

Now I won't be posting a clip of my playing to back up my claims, but for a beginner, especially a grown up, lessons are invaluable.

It would be the fastest way to get started, plus any teacher worth their salt would also teach reading, and that is immensely valuable.

I'm not the world's greatest reader by a long chalk (no vids of that either, sorry), but recently I've had to learn some new songs which, while hardly The Black Page, have been beyond my ability to learn quickly by osmosis. Transcribing them into charts was the smartest thing I ever did.
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Old 05-23-2018, 03:05 AM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

I must apologize. I didn't read the thread thoroughly enough before I commented and called out Alex. Although I still don't agree with his general tone on several comments I've seen from him, I do agree with his advice to hire a qualified teacher. Take a lesson with a few teachers if possible to find one who you like to learn from. I don't see how a teacher can stifle you as was previously mentioned.
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  #67  
Old 05-23-2018, 03:15 AM
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I won't be posting a clip of my playing
Nor I, at least not anytime soon!

lulz!
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  #68  
Old 05-23-2018, 05:54 AM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

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Now I won't be posting a clip of my playing to back up my claims, but for a beginner, especially a grown up, lessons are invaluable.

It would be the fastest way to get started, plus any teacher worth their salt would also teach reading, and that is immensely valuable.

I'm not the world's greatest reader by a long chalk (no vids of that either, sorry), but recently I've had to learn some new songs which, while hardly The Black Page, have been beyond my ability to learn quickly by osmosis. Transcribing them into charts was the smartest thing I ever did.
I think it's worth pointing out that, irrespective of ability, even getting just one lesson (something I should get to sometime) to either inspire, reinvigorate, or get you over a hump, can be a super beneficial thing to do.

I know quite a few players of note who do so - probably why they're amazing players. At the other end of the scale, Derek Roddy came over for a hang a while back, & Derek graciously agreed to give a young local player a short lesson with him (picture). The lesson consisted of working over a few snagging points, & Derek picking up on some areas of improvement for him to concentrate on. The difference that made to this player in a very short time was immediately apparent.

BTW James, please post a video of you Googling osmosis ;) ;) ;)
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  #69  
Old 05-23-2018, 06:31 AM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

I havent seen anyone mention in this thread (or maybe even on the complete forum) that having lessons from a teacher is in general a bad idea..
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  #70  
Old 05-23-2018, 06:56 AM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

Btw i hope that my above reply is understood correct and not in the way that i think that having lessons in general is a bad idea..

Because that would simply be something plain stupid to say..
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  #71  
Old 05-23-2018, 05:57 PM
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

I use a teacher occasionally when I'm having trouble with a specific groove, or just not getting something I've heard or seen that I'm trying to play. I know an excellent jazz drummer who majored in it in college in NYC. I use him a few times a year. Nice guy. Young. He knows what I want and he knows my limitations.

When our group practices I often record it and listen to it later trying to identify things I'm doing well or not so well. Last year I noticed my swinging on hats sounded better with this group if I kept them closed. Things like that I don't need a teacher for.

Whe I was a kid I had a lesson on snare every week. Learned to read music and rudiments. I had those lessons for many years up through high school. Maybe 9 years or so. But that ain't where OP is.

My original advice that prompted a metaphorical comparison of Johnsons (lol) is what I am still recommending. Listen to CD's and play along. Then find some folks to play with. Have fun!!! OP will figure out where he needs help and that's where a lesson here or there might help. But a formal set of lessons naw I don't think so.
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Old 05-23-2018, 09:16 PM
mikel mikel is offline
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

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I use a teacher occasionally when I'm having trouble with a specific groove, or just not getting something I've heard or seen that I'm trying to play. I know an excellent jazz drummer who majored in it in college in NYC. I use him a few times a year. Nice guy. Young. He knows what I want and he knows my limitations.

When our group practices I often record it and listen to it later trying to identify things I'm doing well or not so well. Last year I noticed my swinging on hats sounded better with this group if I kept them closed. Things like that I don't need a teacher for.

Whe I was a kid I had a lesson on snare every week. Learned to read music and rudiments. I had those lessons for many years up through high school. Maybe 9 years or so. But that ain't where OP is.

My original advice that prompted a metaphorical comparison of Johnsons (lol) is what I am still recommending. Listen to CD's and play along. Then find some folks to play with. Have fun!!! OP will figure out where he needs help and that's where a lesson here or there might help. But a formal set of lessons naw I don't think so.


Agreed. I almost signed up for some lessons in Jazz drumming when my bass player mate invited me to audition for the Jazz quartet he was in. Then I spoke to a Jazzer mate of mine and he said "Jazz is anything you want it to be". I got the gig without learning to play what was "Expected".
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Old 05-23-2018, 09:29 PM
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Magenta Magenta is offline
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

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Now I won't be posting a clip of my playing to back up my claims, but for a beginner, especially a grown up, lessons are invaluable.

It would be the fastest way to get started, plus any teacher worth their salt would also teach reading, and that is immensely valuable.

I'm not the world's greatest reader by a long chalk (no vids of that either, sorry), but recently I've had to learn some new songs which, while hardly The Black Page, have been beyond my ability to learn quickly by osmosis. Transcribing them into charts was the smartest thing I ever did.
James and I were separated at birth.

I've said it a bazillion times before, and I say it again with even more vehemence: I was born to be a drummer. Alas, in my youth I was contaminated with piano, and when confronted with a drum kit, I failed epically.

Luckily, I was fortunate enough to find a teacher who was a) technically exceptionally competent, b) musically literate and c) fantastically inspiring.
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Old 05-23-2018, 11:07 PM
mikel mikel is offline
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Default Re: No Talent Hack, But Loving It....

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James and I were separated at birth.

I've said it a bazillion times before, and I say it again with even more vehemence: I was born to be a drummer. Alas, in my youth I was contaminated with piano, and when confronted with a drum kit, I failed epically.

Luckily, I was fortunate enough to find a teacher who was a) technically exceptionally competent, b) musically literate and c) fantastically inspiring.
I love you Madge, we all do, but, my daughter sat at a kit for the first time in her life, after half an hour she was playing a 4/4 groove, BD, Hi-hat, snare in perfect syncro, no problem. Now she can play pretty much what she thinks of. That is born to drum. A chip off the old block if I say so myself.
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