Glyn Johns / recordman + snare

G

Groov-E

Silver Member
Hey guys !

Not afraid to sound like a huge noob here, I have no pretention when it comes to sound engeneering, though I am a patient dude and always end up with a more than ok sound. Plus, studios in my hometown seem to work more with hip hop or guitar/vocals artists. So we are trying to become more self-reliant in the sound department (mics and placement, interface, etc).

I had an ok kick mic and 2 cheapo small diaphragm cardioid condenser OH (pencil mics). We have a UR44 interface. I play one up two down 2 crash 1 ride and 1 effect, sometimes adding a left snare.

I used the recordman method to start (an OH +/- 2 stick length above snare and the other equidistant to snare over right shoulder) and move right OH around to adapt to the situation. We tinkered quite a bit in the last year with the setup.

Now I added an sm57 just for the snare which is a great overall improvement.

Questions :

1- Should I still point one oh directly towards the snare (back, front, etc.) or is there a common technique to start with ?

2- can i use the other oh pencil mic pointing upwards equidistant to the other oh in a john glyns fashion?

I know it's all trial and error, but just a couple of tips or do's and Donts would be apreciated.

Any suggestion can help including ones I can't even fathom at this point, thanks in advance!
 
And buying quality new OH is also an option, i just started simple and thought i'd work my way up.

Thanks and have a great saturday night !
 
I run a similar setup. e602 on the kick, 57 on the share, and two AT2020 overheads. When I use GJ or an overhead config that places a condenser directly above the snare, I usually move the 57 to the bottom of the sane to catch the wires a little better.

It's important to experiment and learn too hear the difference between XY/ORTF, spaced pair, and GJ/Recorderman. Once you can tell them apart and hear their quirks, it's much easier to figure out which spacial configuration to use for a particular part.
 
I believe that, for a lot of amateur recordists, the Glyn Johns/Recorderman methods lead to much frustration because of the rigitity in terms of phase to which you need to adhere. OK, if four mics and four pres are all you can afford, then be my guest but with a little more money, you gain a lot more freedom.

I personally think these methods are best for getting a cohesive, organic sound in goodish rooms without a lot of reflection. But give me six tracks on a cheap recorder and no way I'm gonna attempt to do it that way no matter how small the kit or tight the room. Get the kit to sound as perfect as you can into an XY stereo overhead pair and blend close mics into the mix. Short road to success!!
 
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VitalTransformation said:
I believe that, for a lot of amateur recordists, the Glyn Johns/Recorderman methods lead to much frustration because of the rigitity in terms of phase to which you need to adhere. OK, if four mics and four pres are all you can afford, then be my guest but with a little more money, you gain a lot more freedom.

I personally think these methods are best for getting a cohesive, organic sound in goodish rooms without a lot of reflection. But give me six tracks on a cheap recorder and no way I'm gonna attempt to do it that way no matter how small the kit or tight the room. Get the kit to sound as perfect as you can into an XY stereo overhead pair and blend close mics into the mix. Short road to success!!
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I hear you brother, but I want to get 3 right, then four, then the rest. Complicated road, but i wish i had done the same for my drumming so i am overcompensating for that i guess.
 
Upgrading is definitely an option, but shelling 4000$ for something that may or not return a little on capital seems a bit wasteful. I thought i'd go as far as i can with what is at hand and "earn" an eventual upgrade.
 
Yea, the GJ method can produce wonderful results, very simply. The secret is to get the drums sounding the way you want to record them, with tuning, room placement and room tuning. That takes away most of the variables that you may not even consider with close mic's. Now you are free to place the mic's for best effect to simply pick up what you are hearing in the room.
 
An interesting thread and one I'm learning from.
 
cbphoto said:
I'm a believer of the recorderman technique, but with a snare mic & kick mic. The room makes a huge difference, too. Hang acoustic blankets to kill high frequency reflections.

Here's a couple recordings I made with that technique using a relatively inexpensive mic pre:
https://youtu.be/48NWpQh2LOI
https://youtu.be/fUmgUdFbnxo

In addition, these vids have good info:
https://youtu.be/K9NjecFFoIQ
https://youtu.be/wbM5mFEKtw8
https://youtu.be/k3Bk9lb2sx4

And remember to have fun!
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Very informative ! Thanks. Great playing and the sound is so clear and crisp.
 
Thanks for the kind words. I bought the Tascam DR-70D for video production and was curious how well it would capture the transients of a drum kit (I was pleasantly surprised).

A lot of skilled engineers & producers balk at the Recorderman method because it doesn't keep the snare in phase between the two overhead mics. If they are placed equidistant from the top of the snare, then the phase of cymbals & toms isn't exact. A solution is to move the mics further from the kit (1–3 feet), and this is when the room really affects the sound. Padding & baffles are your friend.

This video shows the benefit of placing the snare mic in phase with the two overheads. I've tried it and it's surprising how much of a difference a few milliseconds makes in the sound of the snare (and reinforces the axiom that the snare is the most important drum in the kit).
 
cbphoto said:
Thanks for the kind words. I bought the Tascam DR-70D for video production and was curious how well it would capture the transients of a drum kit (I was pleasantly surprised).

A lot of skilled engineers & producers balk at the Recorderman method because it doesn't keep the snare in phase between the two overhead mics. If they are placed equidistant from the top of the snare, then the phase of cymbals & toms isn't exact. A solution is to move the mics further from the kit (1–3 feet), and this is when the room really affects the sound. Padding & baffles are your friend.

This video shows the benefit of placing the snare mic in phase with the two overheads. I've tried it and it's surprising how much of a difference a few milliseconds makes in the sound of the snare (and reinforces the axiom that the snare is the most important drum in the kit).
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What oh mics would you recommend using ? that's a big one, I know. But if you had to pick 2 all-time favorites within a reasonsble budget and a dream setup ?
 
Groov-E said:
What oh mics would you recommend using ? that's a big one, I know. But if you had to pick 2 all-time favorites within a reasonsble budget and a dream setup ?
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I've been using sennheiser e914 condensers for over ten years. I bought them because, in addition to sounding good, they're very durable (the entire e9xx series is designed for live use, and the handling that entails). Which is what I wanted as a noob.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/e914

Last year I went to a recording workshop at Sweetwater, featuring Kenny Aronoff. I was the noob amongst these working pros, and it was great to see how it's really done.

The teacher/engineer hung a pair of AKG C414 and a pair of Shure KSM44A to provide an A/B comparison. When I asked about small capsule condensers (like the e914), I was told the sonic image from a large diaphragm condenser provides better detail in the lower spectrum. But I've never tried a pair 'cuz my room isn't very well tuned, and figure it'd be a waste of money.

That said, Aronoff was so tight to the click, and he sight reads each tune 'cuz he works so much he can't remember everything. And he plays hard & loud. Every take.
 

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It must have been a great moment for you, awesome !

I feel the same way about going too high end, i'll try the lower end ones i do have in and out until i get a good sense of the possibilities and limitations and go from there. As with everything else, the key word is practice.
 
Groov-E said:
. . . i'll try the lower end ones i do have in and out until i get a good sense of the possibilities and limitations and go from there.
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That's what I'd recommend. I'm not experienced enough to make informed recommendations on small capsule OH mics.

But I have tried several mics on my snare and recommend the Shure SM57. For a kick mic I use the EV ND868 and am very happy. I've tried Shure, Audix and Audio-Technica kick mics and prefer the sound of the EV.
 
Groov-E said:
What oh mics would you recommend using ? that's a big one, I know. But if you had to pick 2 all-time favorites within a reasonsble budget and a dream setup ?
Click to expand...

Not knowing your budget, here's my 2 cents worth on different options which should cover you for both live performance and demo recording:

Overhead Mic Options: Audio-Technica AE3000, Aston Origin, Audio-Technica ATM450, Audio-Technica AE5100

Bass Drum Mic Options: Audio-Technica ATM25 (discontinued), Telefunkin M82, Heil PR48, Aston Origin

Here's a video for the Aston Origin being used in an improvised Glyn Johns set-up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kpsOBr5QDU

"Dream mic's" are best left in the studio mic locker!
 
Vintage Old School said:
Not knowing your budget, here's my 2 cents worth on different options which should cover you for both live performance and demo recording:

Overhead Mic Options: Audio-Technica AE3000, Aston Origin, Audio-Technica ATM450, Audio-Technica AE5100

Bass Drum Mic Options: Audio-Technica ATM25 (discontinued), Telefunkin M82, Heil PR48, Aston Origin

Here's a video for the Aston Origin being used in an improvised Glyn Johns set-up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kpsOBr5QDU

"Dream mic's" are best left in the studio mic locker!
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Thanks VOS, all great suggestions ! Like you and cbphoto suggested or implied, if your room is not optimal there is no point going all out.

We'll work our arses off for a good demo but I think at some point money and time will be better spent on a well-recommended pro studio be it just for the drums or better yet the whole project.

Fewer and fewer engineers in my area seem to have any experience in recording drums, so maybe a trip will be in order. All in due time and any experience acquired from here on in with lower-end gear can only help us grow as musicians.

Thanks !
 
Graham Cochrane suggests using inexpensive mics for the Recorderman technique because it doesn't pick up as much room.
 
Groov-E said:
I hear you brother, but I want to get 3 right, then four, then the rest. Complicated road, but i wish i had done the same for my drumming so i am overcompensating for that i guess.
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This is my applied trade so ya'll can ask me anything and I'll try my best to answer your questions... I already see quite a bit of strange information, like some confusion between "phase" and "stereo image".

The rub is that any of the minimal miking techniques are mutually exclusive from conventional close miking setups. There really isn't a whole lot that translates over... and truthfully, they're WAY harder to setup because it removes all control and ability to change balances or anything else after its been recorded.

Any of these 3 mic setups, of which there are at least a half dozen I'm familiar with are all dependent on the quality of the room and depend on the drummer to control their (your!) own balance of snare, top of toms and cymbals without the cymbals blowing out the kit. If your engineering while playing drums it can be near impossible to setup because you can't play and listen to yourself at the same time.

As for your two initial questions... the rub is that you have to use your ears and move the microphones around to find the balances in that room, on that day, with that kit for that music.

Looking just at the 'Johns' setup the first mic I place isn't a kick, but more like "front of kit" and could be anywhere from 1-3 feet out from the bass drum. Looking for "thump" off the kick, bottom of toms and a bit of snare... cymbals will exist but are basically collateral. Often this mic is some sort of large diaphragm condenser but sometimes a dynamic like a 421 or rarely, an sm57.

Next, while listening in 1-speaker mono I'll add the overhead... listening for that balance between cymbals, attack of toms and snare. This mic could wind up directly over the snare or behind the drummer, looking over the shoulder or anywhere in that arc. Usually the closer I get to the back of that arc the more often its a small diaphragm condenser.

The side mic isn't really an overhead but more like a "side fill" - usually winds up about level with the rim of the floor tom, maybe slightly higher... maybe an inch or two and looking at the rack tom. You need to be conscious of cymbal wash on this one, both phasing with the overhead and also simply blasts of air bottoming out the diaphragm. Most often this mic is a dynamic like a 421 and again, added in 1-speaker mono.

If I need more snare with a setup like this I'll end up miking the side of the shell. This mic is usually about a fist width, like 3-6" away and anywhere from level with the top hoop to about midway down the shell and tucked under the hats.

The mono thing is important when placing mics because you want to be sure you aren't robbing and diluting the bottom end of the track, taking power away. Its also not important to have a matching pair for the OH & side mics, sometimes it works out that way but the actual sounds trump everything.

Generally speaking for a band looking to upgrade their DIY recordings, I think one of the most common mistakes is buying crappy mics. You don't need to spend thousands on Neumanns & Blues but get decent stuff and build a locker with some options.

In your specific case I'd also give serious thought to replacing the interface and moving from a 4-channel to something with at least 8 inputs. It'd be good for not only drums, but having the ability to record the entire band in one pass or, at the very least leave stuff hooked up on dedicated channels so you don't have to repatch and reset levels. It'll make your workflow more efficient.
 
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