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  #1  
Old 01-13-2019, 05:06 AM
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Chunkaway Chunkaway is offline
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Default Interesting Observation Regarding Drum Quality and Sound Preferences

So, I live/work overseas for most of the year, however, I go back to my home country for a couple of months in the summer and three weeks in the winter.

In Singapore (where I live/work most of the year) I have two C&C kits - a 2012 12th and Vine (3 ply maple/poplar/maple) and a 2018 Player Date II (maple). Both of these kits are great sounding, with the 12th and Vine having a considerably fuller sound.


In my home country, I have a 2017 Gretsch Brooklyn, a 2016 Ludwig Classic Maple, and 1969 Ludwig.

All of these kits have a 22 (or 20)/16/14/12 configuration. (One up, two down). I have never had all of these drums in the same country at the same time, so I have not had a chance to really pay attention to the sonic differences/characteristics. I recently went back to my home country for a couple of weeks and did a sound comparison between all of the drums.

My observation - the 1969 kit - which has some wobbly edges, wonky hardware, wrap that probably should be replaced, etc..- sounds "better" than any of my kits. The C&C 12th and Vine is VERY close, but the vintage Ludwig is just a bit warmer sounding.

This REALLY surprised me since I am constantly hearing people complaining about the quality of vintage Ludwigs, how much better drums today are made, etc.. I made a couple of videos (not posted or anything, just for myself) and even my wife noticed how good the vintage Ludwigs sounded. The only potential "negative" is the vintage Ludwigs are lacking the volume of all of the other kits, but you could probably get around this issue with mics/heads/tuning.

Now, maybe I just prefer vintage sounding drums, but my C&C kits and my Brooklyn kit, which are all modeled after vintage drums, didn't have quite the warmth/roundness of the vintage Ludwigs. This experience has definitely given me some pause for thought, and I am now considering selling off several of my sets and going down the vintage path.

Anyone else had similar/different experiences?
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Old 01-13-2019, 05:22 AM
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Default Re: Interesting Observation Regarding Drum Quality and Sound Preferences

Define “vintage”, and I would also consider the factory where the drums were made. That probably has a lot to do for a shells sound.
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Old 01-13-2019, 05:24 AM
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Default Re: Interesting Observation Regarding Drum Quality and Sound Preferences

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunkaway View Post
So, I live/work overseas for most of the year, however, I go back to my home country for a couple of months in the summer and three weeks in the winter.

In Singapore (where I live/work most of the year) I have two C&C kits - a 2012 12th and Vine (3 ply maple/poplar/maple) and a 2018 Player Date II (maple). Both of these kits are great sounding, with the 12th and Vine having a considerably fuller sound.


In my home country, I have a 2017 Gretsch Brooklyn, a 2016 Ludwig Classic Maple, and 1969 Ludwig.

All of these kits have a 22 (or 20)/16/14/12 configuration. (One up, two down). I have never had all of these drums in the same country at the same time, so I have not had a chance to really pay attention to the sonic differences/characteristics. I recently went back to my home country for a couple of weeks and did a sound comparison between all of the drums.

My observation - the 1969 kit - which has some wobbly edges, wonky hardware, wrap that probably should be replaced, etc..- sounds "better" than any of my kits. The C&C 12th and Vine is VERY close, but the vintage Ludwig is just a bit warmer sounding.

This REALLY surprised me since I am constantly hearing people complaining about the quality of vintage Ludwigs, how much better drums today are made, etc.. I made a couple of videos (not posted or anything, just for myself) and even my wife noticed how good the vintage Ludwigs sounded. The only potential "negative" is the vintage Ludwigs are lacking the volume of all of the other kits, but you could probably get around this issue with mics/heads/tuning.

Now, maybe I just prefer vintage sounding drums, but my C&C kits and my Brooklyn kit, which are all modeled after vintage drums, didn't have quite the warmth/roundness of the vintage Ludwigs. This experience has definitely given me some pause for thought, and I am now considering selling off several of my sets and going down the vintage path.

Anyone else had similar/different experiences?
Me.

Looking at my track record, every time I try brand spanking new kits, I always return to vintage tones. Every time I do something memorable, it's on a vintage kit. My last Ludwig was from 1973, and loved it. I currently play a 1972 Gretsch stop sign badge kit, and love that one. I'm currently working on a Pearl maple kit from 1980 that I got today. I just do better on the old stuff. If I use something new, I don't really remember the performance. I guess I'm weird that way.
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Old 01-13-2019, 06:31 AM
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Default Re: Interesting Observation Regarding Drum Quality and Sound Preferences

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Originally Posted by cbphoto View Post
Define “vintage”, and I would also consider the factory where the drums were made. That probably has a lot to do for a shells sound.
Well for me, 1969 would definitely count as vintage. I’d think drums made in the 70s would also be considered vintage.

I’m not sure I understand the comment about the factory where the drums are made. Can you explain a bit?
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Old 01-13-2019, 06:41 AM
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Default Re: Interesting Observation Regarding Drum Quality and Sound Preferences

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Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
Me.

Looking at my track record, every time I try brand spanking new kits, I always return to vintage tones. Every time I do something memorable, it's on a vintage kit. My last Ludwig was from 1973, and loved it. I currently play a 1972 Gretsch stop sign badge kit, and love that one. I'm currently working on a Pearl maple kit from 1980 that I got today. I just do better on the old stuff. If I use something new, I don't really remember the performance. I guess I'm weird that way.
That is really interesting to hear, since when I think back over the years, I have had similar experiences.

I thought you just bought a huge, new Pearl kit, no?
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Old 01-13-2019, 07:53 AM
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Default Re: Interesting Observation Regarding Drum Quality and Sound Preferences

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Originally Posted by Chunkaway View Post
My observation - the 1969 kit - which has some wobbly edges, wonky hardware, wrap that probably should be replaced, etc..- sounds "better" than any of my kits....

This REALLY surprised me since I am constantly hearing people complaining about the quality of vintage Ludwigs, how much better drums today are made, etc.
Drums are generally made better now than they were 40+ years ago. But Ludwig drums from a couple of eras - late-'50s to about 1963, and about 1968 to 1975 - are highly sought after for their sound, and your kit certainly falls into that category. They were magic, and for different reasons: the earlier drums were mahogany & poplar, and the later ones were maple & poplar. Both were great, and companies including Ludwig have been chasing those sounds for a while. Ludwig's Legacy Mahogany and Legacy Maple are designed after those early drums, and while technically more perfect and consistent, they're not quite the same, thought they do sound pretty great.

Part of the lure of the older drums is the age of the wood, but it's also due to the shell construction. Those shells were made from a flat piece, with the wrap already glued on, and bent into shape and glued with an overlapping 'scarf' joint. This stressed the already-glued plies in a way that doesn't happen in today's molds, and that has a good effect on the drum's sound. The joint also created a slight or sometimes more noticeable 'hump', and that also affects the sound somewhat.

Not surprising that your '69s sound great!

Bermuda
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Old 01-13-2019, 11:06 AM
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Default Re: Interesting Observation Regarding Drum Quality and Sound Preferences

Good to know! I’ve often wondered about C&Cs.

I have a very similar Ludwig set up in champagne sparkle: 22, 12, 16 that I bought used. They had the worst heads and tuning when I got them, but now they sing! Bass drum has a rail mount, so I’m guessing they’re early 60s, but I’m not sure. They’re warm and thumpy, and they tune up well.

I also have Brooklyns (20, 10, 12, 14). To me they’re not trying to sound vintage, but more like a bright, modern maple kit, with a bit of added warmth. They have their own personality.

On the complete other side, I have a used Yamaha kit on the way. I’m hoping for yet another unique personality. The “Gibson” to my “Stratocasters”.

In my limited experience, vintage drums are largely about the aesthetic, although Rogers swivomatic hardware is supposed to be very functional. I recorded an old Rogers kit once, and while I wasn’t blown away sonically, the lettered Rogers logo is just the coolest thing ever.

I’d like to own a Radio King snare at some point, just for that glorious cross stick sound. But as far as vintage kits, the Ludwig’s have scratched that itch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bermuda View Post

Part of the lure of the older drums is the age of the wood, but it's also due to the shell construction. Those shells were made from a flat piece, with the wrap already glued on, and bent into shape and glued with an overlapping 'scarf' joint. This stressed the already-glued plies in a way that doesn't happen in today's molds, and that has a good effect on the drum's sound. The joint also created a slight or sometimes more noticeable 'hump', and that also affects the sound somewhat.

Not surprising that your '69s sound great!

Bermuda
Cool to know, thanks!
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Old 01-13-2019, 01:12 PM
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Default Re: Interesting Observation Regarding Drum Quality and Sound Preferences

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Originally Posted by brentcn View Post
Good to know! I’ve often wondered about C&Cs.

I have a very similar Ludwig set up in champagne sparkle: 22, 12, 16 that I bought used. They had the worst heads and tuning when I got them, but now they sing! Bass drum has a rail mount, so I’m guessing they’re early 60s, but I’m not sure. They’re warm and thumpy, and they tune up well.

I also have Brooklyns (20, 10, 12, 14). To me they’re not trying to sound vintage, but more like a bright, modern maple kit, with a bit of added warmth. They have their own personality.

On the complete other side, I have a used Yamaha kit on the way. I’m hoping for yet another unique personality. The “Gibson” to my “Stratocasters”.

In my limited experience, vintage drums are largely about the aesthetic, although Rogers swivomatic hardware is supposed to be very functional. I recorded an old Rogers kit once, and while I wasn’t blown away sonically, the lettered Rogers logo is just the coolest thing ever.

I’d like to own a Radio King snare at some point, just for that glorious cross stick sound. But as far as vintage kits, the Ludwig’s have scratched that itch.



Cool to know, thanks!
Hmm...I'm surprised to see your comments about the Brooklyns. To me, they sound closer to the vintage Ludwigs than to a modern Yamaha. Are you hearing them sound closer to your modern Yamahas than your Ludwigs?

I described the sound of the Brooklyns as "vintage drums pumped up". I think they are a bit more aggressive sounding than vintage drums, but they have a rounder tone and less attack than modern drums.

Regardless, if you could only keep one kit, which one would it be?
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Old 01-13-2019, 04:25 PM
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Default Re: Interesting Observation Regarding Drum Quality and Sound Preferences

Quote:
I’m not sure I understand the comment about the factory where the drums are made. Can you explain a bit?
My hunch is that certain factories made drums a certain way—independent of an exact year—and that is what gives them their unique sound.

Bermuda reveals some secret sauce:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
Drums are generally made better now than they were 40+ years ago. But Ludwig drums from a couple of eras - late-'50s to about 1963, and about 1968 to 1975 - are highly sought after for their sound, and your kit certainly falls into that category. They were magic, and for different reasons: the earlier drums were mahogany & poplar, and the later ones were maple & poplar. Both were great, and companies including Ludwig have been chasing those sounds for a while. Ludwig's Legacy Mahogany and Legacy Maple are designed after those early drums, and while technically more perfect and consistent, they're not quite the same, thought they do sound pretty great.

Part of the lure of the older drums is the age of the wood, but it's also due to the shell construction. Those shells were made from a flat piece, with the wrap already glued on, and bent into shape and glued with an overlapping 'scarf' joint. This stressed the already-glued plies in a way that doesn't happen in today's molds, and that has a good effect on the drum's sound. The joint also created a slight or sometimes more noticeable 'hump', and that also affects the sound somewhat.
I would also consider the Niles, IL, Slingerland factory a place where classic vintage drums were made. The fellow who bought the old Slingerland equipment is definitely trying to embue that vintage sound to their drums.

https://stonecustomdrum.com/drums/am...ic-series.html
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Old 01-13-2019, 04:47 PM
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Default Re: Interesting Observation Regarding Drum Quality and Sound Preferences

I love the sound of my 63' and 58' Slingerland drums. But I hated the bass drum spurs and the tom mounts. Not good for constant gigging.
So I installed new bass drum spurs and I mount my toms on snare drum stands. I guess I killed the vintage look a little but now I enjoy using them at gigs.

The new drum hardware is far superior to the old vintage hardware. My opinion is, if you are going to use the drums for gigging,
buy a new drum kit that is designed to sound and look like a vintage kit. The sound is close enough to vintage sound; especially when the band starts playing.


.
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Old 01-13-2019, 09:03 PM
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Default Re: Interesting Observation Regarding Drum Quality and Sound Preferences

Quote:
Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
Drums are generally made better now than they were 40+ years ago. But Ludwig drums from a couple of eras - late-'50s to about 1963, and about 1968 to 1975 - are highly sought after for their sound, and your kit certainly falls into that category. They were magic, and for different reasons: the earlier drums were mahogany & poplar, and the later ones were maple & poplar. Both were great, and companies including Ludwig have been chasing those sounds for a while. Ludwig's Legacy Mahogany and Legacy Maple are designed after those early drums, and while technically more perfect and consistent, they're not quite the same, thought they do sound pretty great.

Part of the lure of the older drums is the age of the wood, but it's also due to the shell construction. Those shells were made from a flat piece, with the wrap already glued on, and bent into shape and glued with an overlapping 'scarf' joint. This stressed the already-glued plies in a way that doesn't happen in today's molds, and that has a good effect on the drum's sound. The joint also created a slight or sometimes more noticeable 'hump', and that also affects the sound somewhat.

Not surprising that your '69s sound great!

Bermuda
Ah, that’s very cool, Bermuda. Thank you for sharing that information. I know you gig a ton, so do you ever bring out your vintage drums for your shows, or is it always modern stuff?
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Old 01-13-2019, 09:23 PM
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Default Re: Interesting Observation Regarding Drum Quality and Sound Preferences

As for newer drums being "better," I think that is just more about consistency and better hardware than anything. Like others have said, a lot of the old stuff is still sought after for sound.

I think in a lot of ways it is probably impossible for someone to make a modern drum sound exactly like an older one. Not only are you dealing with wood that has aged for over 30 years, but you are talking about slightly different construction and materials as well. Even if you made a drum with the same wood types with the same specs, I think it'd probably still sound a bit different.

Anyway rock what ya got.
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Old 01-13-2019, 09:31 PM
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Older snares really have the sound that I like, and I can tune them just the way I like. New snares I feel like require higher tuning on both reso and batter, and snares to be tighter. I seem to be able to get a wider tuning range from older thinner ply snares.

And yeah hardware on vintage really does suck. On a Slingerland kit for bass drum spurs they were not long enough so I bought longer generic steel (or were they aluminum) rods in exact diameter and then got rubber feet for them, and it worked perfectly. No need to replace the actual hardware just replaced the spurs with new rods and got rubber feet for them.

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Old 01-14-2019, 04:48 AM
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Default Re: Interesting Observation Regarding Drum Quality and Sound Preferences

Interesting comments from Bermuda about the shell construction.

I don't know much about it, but they used less, but thicker plies then.
And like he says, the joining method was different.
Some kits still have the outer finish/ply glued on all the way around, but I
don't think anyone is using that method with the older wood types.
Bearing edges were rounded more then too.
That stuff, along with the long term curing of the wood, all contributes to the sound, I'm sure.
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Old 01-14-2019, 10:21 PM
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Default Re: Interesting Observation Regarding Drum Quality and Sound Preferences

Wood is organic. It changes over time and that affects the sound. The change is greatly affected by the surrounding atmosphere too.
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Old 01-14-2019, 11:02 PM
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I’ve only heard that when it comes to vintage ludwigs the quality is inconsistent. Sometimes you’ll get a really great sounding drum and sometimes it’ll be less than perfect
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Old 01-14-2019, 11:21 PM
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Wood is organic. It changes over time and that affects the sound. The change is greatly affected by the surrounding atmosphere too.
So, do you think the aging process is more important than the manufacturing process or the hardware used? Modern drum making techniques are certainly of a higher standard than in the past. The craftsmanship also seems to be of a higher quality, at least going by conventional standards. So, one would think the sonic properties would be improved, but that isn't always the case.
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Old 01-14-2019, 11:23 PM
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I’ve only heard that when it comes to vintage ludwigs the quality is inconsistent. Sometimes you’ll get a really great sounding drum and sometimes it’ll be less than perfect
I have heard the same, and I have certainly had some Ludwigs that didn't sound quite as good as my current drums. However, it seems that the wonky bearing edges, bump in the wrap, etc... have not negatively impacted the sound at all.
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Old 01-15-2019, 05:32 AM
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Default Re: Interesting Observation Regarding Drum Quality and Sound Preferences

Another factor that doesn't get mentioned much...the room where the instrument in question is heard. Oh and the tuning. I can make a great drum sound like garbage. I can almost smell what you're thinking lol. Head choice and muffling get honorable mention too. If you don't like the sound of hydraulics with earth gel all over them, that doesn't mean the drums suck.

Perception too. Just the other day, within the same day, in the morning, I didn't care for the sound of one of my snare drums, but later on I loved it! I don't get it but there it is.

Sound is so personal, plus literally everything you ever heard has been unique.

It's almost impossible to say anything with any certainty regarding the sound something makes. It's all opinion.

Plus, if I don't like a sound...that's like saying I don't like a color. It's more like the sound in question doesn't fit into my present needs kind of thing. All sounds have a place.
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Old 01-15-2019, 11:02 AM
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Perception too. Just the other day, within the same day, in the morning, I didn't care for the sound of one of my snare drums, but later on I loved it! I don't get it but there it is.

.
Same here, both over shorter time frames and longer ones. And it weirds me out sometimes, when I get caught off-guard by a sudden change in my own preference.
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Old 01-15-2019, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Another factor that doesn't get mentioned much...the room where the instrument in question is heard. Oh and the tuning. I can make a great drum sound like garbage. I can almost smell what you're thinking lol. Head choice and muffling get honorable mention too. If you don't like the sound of hydraulics with earth gel all over them, that doesn't mean the drums suck.

Perception too. Just the other day, within the same day, in the morning, I didn't care for the sound of one of my snare drums, but later on I loved it! I don't get it but there it is.

Sound is so personal, plus literally everything you ever heard has been unique.

It's almost impossible to say anything with any certainty regarding the sound something makes. It's all opinion.

Plus, if I don't like a sound...that's like saying I don't like a color. It's more like the sound in question doesn't fit into my present needs kind of thing. All sounds have a place.
Post should be a sticky uncle Larry!

Who that’s ever dabbled in sound engineering hasn’t spent a whole day on a mix and made it sound perfect by dinner? But later in the evening (when people have come by to hear your mix) it sounds like ass?
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Old 01-15-2019, 02:31 PM
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Post should be a sticky uncle Larry!

Who that’s ever dabbled in sound engineering hasn’t spent a whole day on a mix and made it sound perfect by dinner? But later in the evening (when people have come by to hear your mix) it sounds like ass?
That's the case with all my attempts at mixing/mastering. Or I spend hours getting it "just right" only to realize it's only just right in the particular headphones I was using to mix.
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