Pro end drum kits: Are they really worth the money?

As drummers, we often like to sit around and discuss differences in shell materials, thicknesses, bearing edges and how endless variables such as heads, tuning, acoustics, mics etc will affect the sound of a kit.

With this considered, what really separates an intermediate kit from a top of the line professional kit?


When the band starts up; you've got the guitars, horns, keys, vocals and whatever else all blasting away.
Now, would Uncle Bob and Auntie Rita drunkenly dancing away at the wedding you're playing notice or even care about the fact that your kit is vertical grain instead of horizontal?
Would another drummer or musician with keen ears instantly be able to tell that you're playing an SQ2 and not just a nicely tuned Tama Superstar?
Even close mic'd in the studio, the differences seem incremental at best. My case in point is demonstrated here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfUexBFUbAk
The Gretsch New Classic costs around £1500. The USA Custom is probably double that.....for a slightly different bass drum sound.


The reason I ask this question is because I'm in the market for a new top end kit. But I'm not really sure (besides a custom finish and being able to tell my drummer friends what a nice kit I have) what the very top of the line kits offer for the price. I'm very much of the opinion that above all else, the sound of the drums is affected most by the player and the way they hit the drums.
If the sound of the kit is really in the hands and feet of the player; sound-wise, what would a Sonor SQ2 or Gretsch USA Custom give me that I couldn't get with a Gretsch New Classic (the main kit I'm seriously considering). Furthermore, what would be the advantage of a New Classic over a simple Gretsch Catalina which is even cheaper again?



In short, help me justify spending a whole load of cash on a drum kit!



As a side note, I'm looking for a modern/contemporary kit that has a tip-of-the-hat to a 50s/60s/70s blues, funk. soul, rock n roll sound. Kinda Al Jackson jr, Motown, Zig Modeliste, Aretha Franklin, Chuck Berry sort of stuff. So far, the Gretsch New Classic seems the way to go. The clue's in the name, right?

If your radar is limited to the differences in sound between mid range & upper range ply kits, then the differences in sound are fairly small. Look outside that to different shell constructions, then the differences can be fairly substantial. Not necessarily "better", but certainly more distinctive in character. of course, the principal of diminishing returns applies, as it does to almost any material object. At what point on a scale you find value is both contextual & personal.

Your example of close mic'd in a studio with the facility to process to almost any level is most valid too, but that's not the only approach to acoustic drum recording. Step away from the "build it up from the outboards" approach, & there's strong value in drums that sound superb in the recording room. Such a drum sound offers greater choice to the producer, & a faster recording process too. Again, that only contributes if you have an outlet for that approach, but the difference in such circumstances is quite considerable.

Specifically on the video example you posted, I thought both the recording & tuning were poor. In such a comparison recording, why it was necessary to add reverb is beyond me, & the bass drum sound on the left kit was dreadful IMHO. To my ear, only the snares sounded reasonable.

Play what inspires you & delivers value in your particular circumstances. I couldn't agree more that it's the player who extracts the biggest performance differences, but the sound of a real class instrument can further inspire greater performance, irrespective of whether the end result has value to others or not.

Good luck with your new drums

Going to be a bunch of opinions on this probably. I will add because I own both a New Classic Classic and a USA Custom. I consider both pro drums.

To answer your question on will the audience or other players know? Not really from the audience unless there's another drummer who is in it. The players I play with know the difference between something that sounds really good and something that doesn't and they dislike stuff that doesn't.

Most importantly the one who knows the difference is me. I do notice a difference between lower level sets and pro drums. I love both of these sets so for me I couldn't be more than happy.

Can I justify something like a Craviatto? I am not worth it.

Who are you wanting to please? What sounds do you have in your head you are trying to get to? If you just want stuff that sounds good. Save a bundle and buy a Catalina. If there's more to it than that, then you may need to take it a step further.

Play what you love and love what you play.

Three said:

what really separates an intermediate kit from a top of the line professional kit?

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1. Finish
2. Quality of materials
3. Longevity of fittings
4. Tolerances in workmanship
5. Sometimes the sound of the drum too, but many intermediate kits sound just as good

Sonor sq2's and gretsch USA customs are head and shoulders above everything else sound wise but cost $$$. If you are satisfied with the sound and looks of the gretsch new classic turn buy it.

No they're not worth the money from a logical POV. But it's not about logic, it's about lust and desire. Who cares if no one notices, it's you who you are trying to please.

I don't think any drummer needs to justify anything, any cost, any choice, whether they are playing a pro kit or a total crapper. Its what you do on the kit and the enjoyment you have is what has no pricetag. If you're killin' it on an old Tama Rockstar, or pleasantly enjoying your new Gretsch USA's.... works out all the same.

Are they worth it? A very subjective point of view. when I think of pro level, I think not just about sound, but hardware and durability. Unless you are a very hard (read abusive) player, or a hard traveler, a set should last for years. Drums are and investment on several levels. Durable finish, good hardware finish and design, and quality materials are the investment in my opinion. I also put a lot of consideration into the snare, maybe more than the rest of the drums.

keep it simple said:

Step away from the "build it up from the outboards" approach, & there's strong value in drums that sound superb in the recording room. Such a drum sound offers greater choice to the producer, & a faster recording process too. Again, that only contributes if you have an outlet for that approach, but the difference in such circumstances is quite considerable.

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dmacc said:

To answer your question on will the audience or other players know? Not really from the audience unless there's another drummer who is in it. The players I play with know the difference between something that sounds really good and something that doesn't and they dislike stuff that doesn't.

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I posted that video as an example that close mic'ing (where I consider the sound to be under more scrutiny than live on stage) didn't really highlight that much of a difference in sound between the two kits.

On numerous occasions, I've managed to get the perfect sound in the room using beaten up old Premier kits, Sonor Force 2005s, Pearl Exports etc with nothing more than a quick tune. I've had drummers and sound engineers alike mistake the kits for something a lot more expensive and never had anyone notice that they weren't pro kits.

I also once witnessed Pete Zeldman do a masterclass on a Gretsch Blackhawk with the stock reso heads still on it. Without knowing that it was an entry level kit, so many drummers in the audience were commenting about how much they loved the sound.

As stated earlier, I'm very into the opinion that if the kit sounds ok, the right drummer will make it sound great and I've kinda started to adopt the attitude that "it's a just a drum: hit it" but I've started playing full time as a drummer now and feel I should have proper pro gear to take with me to the next stage of my career. However, as it stands, I'm still really unsure as to why I should have pro gear when up until now, I've managed to get the perfect sound for every situation I've been in on a cheaper kit.

Perhaps it's me that's the problem? As a budding professional drummer, should I become even more scientific about the tiny details between shell qualities?

Larryace said:

Who cares if no one notices, it's you who you are trying to please.

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It's the people who hire me I'm aiming to please the most.

mandrew said:

Are they worth it? A very subjective point of view. when I think of pro level, I think not just about sound, but hardware and durability. Unless you are a very hard (read abusive) player, or a hard traveler, a set should last for years. Drums are and investment on several levels. Durable finish, good hardware finish and design, and quality materials are the investment in my opinion. I also put a lot of consideration into the snare, maybe more than the rest of the drums.

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Yeah I agree there. I almost treat snares as a separate entity and use different ones for different situations. In this thread, I'm mostly talking about the bass and toms "shell pack".

As for finishes, I'm not so specific that I'd need to get a custom kit just to get the right one. I can find a finish I like in the lines that most manufacturers offer as standard. How does the hardware on a pro kit differ from an intermediate kit? I understand mounting systems, different hoops, lugs etc but what is there beyond that?

To me, it was. For you? I can't answer that. I will say that as far as I'm concerned when you pay big money for drums you're paying for nuances. Not necessarily mind blowing differences. I can get a great sound out of a 600 dollar Catalina gretsch with tuning and heads. There's just something about my classic maples that talk back and work with me in a way that is almost difficult to describe. I agree with Larry in that the literal differences are difficult to justify cost using logic. But I didn't buy my kit using logic. I'm more than ok with this.

It is an interesting internal dilemma.

I know that, when looking at what was considered "pro" or "top of the line from the 1970's and 1980s, that many of those kits would largely be considered intermediate today. So many great albums have been made with drum kits that wouldn't be considered all that by today's standards.

I know that many, many intermediate priced kits can and will sound either as good as, or super close to, more expensive kits. Much of what make higher kits high end is simply finishes, size options, and level of detail to workmanship.

And yes, I've seem some amazing drum performances on low end kits that looked like they were found in a dumpster. The drummer makes the drums, not the other way around.

Yet despite knowing all this, that when I am looking at a possible new kit for myself, I can't help but only wanting to look at the highest end options. My head can know it doesn't make that much of a difference, but my heart says if I'm going to replace high end kit, the replacement must the same high-end level. Utterly illogical, given the advancements made in mid-priced kits I know.

And outside of sonic, there are psychological differences. When someone, who's perhaps not a drummer, but knows about music equipment, asks me what I have, and I say I have a DW kit sitting at home mic-ed up, you can tell by the look on their face they're impressed over saying I have a what-ever kit that probably sounds just as a good. I know for a fact my Premier Signia sounds just as good, if not actually better, than the DW, but not everyone necessarily knows what the Signia is.

I agree most of the time the dif between a Luwig legacy or new keystone won't be noticed by many.But if one of those kits has the sound and feel that inspires you to play more and better,and brings out your creative side,or just makes you smile when you play it,then it is worth very penny.

The Ludwig keystones and the Legacy are made in the same location,by the same people on most of the same equipment.Same with Sonor,DW,and until recently Tama and Yamaha.
When talking intermediate pro lines to premium lines from the same brand both are built to last 40 years easily. The difference to me is sizes,if you can live with the limited sizes offered with an intermediate kit,and one of the finishes,you will come out way ahead value wise.However if you find a drum company that has a line that you love the sound of and has the finish and sizes you desire and you have the resources to to aquire it then go ahead and take the plunge,you are spending money on quality.

I did a custom kit once,and I still have it and still love it,it was a great experience,and I am glad I did it.The personalization and having your "signature" on the kit was very satisfying,but you don't have to spend premium dollars to get a premium sound IMO.

If you can't hear or experience any differences when playing the kits that you speak, buy the cheaper and save money. If you're not top notched at tuning the kit, then nothing really matters, again buy the cheaper set of drums.

Dennis

Three said:

I posted that video as an example that close mic'ing (where I consider the sound to be under more scrutiny than live on stage)

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If anything, close micing puts the kit under less scrutiny in terms of the differences between kit qualities. The quality of a high end shell manifests itself more in the resolved sound (i.e. further away from the drums), & that in turn makes a big difference when choosing to record more naturalistically. The majority of recordings are still highly reliant on close mic'ing, but increasingly some are shooting for a natural capture, or a combination placing an increasing bias on room sound. That's where such quality really kicks in.

As an example, we took some of our kits to a studio for totally natural (or as near as you can reasonably get) recording. The micing & drum sound (flat, no EQ,etc) was set up in 10 minutes. The producer who owned the studio was blown away, & stated he'd be delighted to inject that drum sound directly into a song without any processing. He regarded it as "fresh & open", & in his words "saved hours of pissing around getting a sound". Out of curiosity, he tried to replicate that with some studio drums (mainly DW collectors) & the results were very flat by comparison.

So, these elements can make a difference, but as I said earlier, only if your in a position to reap the rewards. Personal pleasure & inspiration from playing something that gives more back / is more expressive / more dynamically responsive however, is priceless, & often manifests itself in encouraging a better performance.

I have the opposite view too. Pub rock band? Grab a Pearl export. Put some good heads on it, tune it up well, sprinkle a few mic's on it, & you're good to go.

I can have both points of view simultaneously, yet one position is often used to negate the other. Two different things IMHO.

The bottom line is this. If you don't perceive value in something, save some cash & buy what you think is up to the job. It's contextual & personal, & if that extra sound performance isn't going to stand out in your circumstances, then it's a waste of money outside of bragging rights.

keep it simple said:

If anything, close micing puts the kit under less scrutiny in terms of the differences between kit qualities. The quality of a high end shell manifests itself more in the resolved sound (i.e. further away from the drums)

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That actually makes a lot of sense and seems so obvious now you say it!

The bottom line is this. If you don't perceive value in something, save some cash & buy what you think is up to the job. It's contextual & personal, & if that extra sound performance isn't going to stand out in your circumstances, then it's a waste of money outside of bragging rights.

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This is turning into the hardest decision ever. However, the pros of pro end kits are slowly starting to sway me in favour of them.

I thought the same way you did, "oh this pearl vision will be great!". Six months later i replaced them. Im now the proud owner of apex Saturn, there is really no comparison imo.

I gig my Sonor Prolites and S Classix out and about town. I get lots of compliments on the sound of my drums. That includes my Benny Greb and SQ2 snare - both of which are expensive. So I think pro level drums are very much worth it. They don't have to be new and they can be any brand you like but I think there is a sound difference.

There were 3 other kits in the lineup besides mine at my last gig. All ran through the same PA, all with the same mics and I was the only one getting compliments on the sound of my kit and playing - even though honestly the other guy was way above my playing.

If you're setting up and tearing down your drums frequently, and transporting them in cases regularly, then you'll want high end equipment. Otherwise, it will all break down in short order.

I prefer the higher end kits................that being said, I played a Tama Rockstar for quite a few years with no complaints I can remember. Now I can afford the higher end stuff, so I get it. Funny thing is that when I played the most, I had the cheapest gear............

The other thing is perception. If I had a bass player show up with a Fender precision / jazz bass, I assume they are a professional..................if that same guy shows up with a squire, I would not have a good first impression. This has no impact on his playing, perhaps the different basses will sound different, but IMO one appears pro, while the other does not.

I consider the Gretsch New Classic to be a pro level kit, so I'd have no issues at all using one as my gigging kit. In the grand scheme of things, it might be an intermediate price (if you are comparing a $2000 kit to a $4000 kit), but the quality is pro level. Considering the bumps and bruises a gigging kit goes through, I would have a hard time gigging with a $4000 kit.