Pop Music in General

They are usually feeble attempts at syncopations that are very elemental in structure (nothing like the wonderful rythms that came out of Motown) and the sound samples are often comical and cartoonish. Snoop often has a human drummer - compare some of his music to say, Lil Wayne. I believe that most drum tracks on the current pop music scene are made by people who have little to no musical background, and are indicative of cost cuts driven by producers. If they want to drive the quality of music completely in the crapper, so be it - the whole pop music industry has been heading that way for quite awhile.

I have heard a few of these rappers have been going to rock instrumentation and considering themselves rockers now... some of it actually doesn't sound terrible. Its kind of an odd concept that a rapper would turn rocker. the vocals are still the rap style stuff but over an electric guitar, drums, and bass...
I agree about the problem with drum tracks sequenced by people with little to no musical background... but that fits into my 90% crap theory... occasionally you may find a singer or whoever programs the beats, that makes interesting rhythms but that is very infrequent.
 
I have heard a few of these rappers have been going to rock instrumentation and considering themselves rockers now... some of it actually doesn't sound terrible. Its kind of an odd concept that a rapper would turn rocker. the vocals are still the rap style stuff but over an electric guitar, drums, and bass...
I agree about the problem with drum tracks sequenced by people with little to no musical background... but that fits into my 90% crap theory... occasionally you may find a singer or whoever programs the beats, that makes interesting rhythms but that is very infrequent.

I wonder if that transition will make the jump from cartoonish programmed instruments to human played instruments. My bet is the decision lays with the producers.
 
I wonder if that transition will make the jump from cartoonish programmed instruments to human played instruments. My bet is the decision lays with the producers.

no that's the point... they have been learning to play guitar and get real musicians to play with them :)
 
This is very interesting, a thread about pop music in general became a discussion about drum machine programming. Pause for thought, that's for sure.

I listen mainly to world music now. Very little programming and lots of drumming.
 
This is very interesting, a thread about pop music in general became a discussion about drum machine programming. Pause for thought, that's for sure.

Well, at least it's drum related. The Michael Jackson thread was varying between nuclear power and The BNP last I saw. It's all interesting, though.
 
Well, at least it's drum related. The Michael Jackson thread was varying between nuclear power and The BNP last I saw. It's all interesting, though.

I don't mean it is a bad thing. Just interesting. I think it's a reflection of the industry.
 
wy hung said:
I think it's a reflection of the industry.

For sure. If you only need or want simple machine beats then you don't have to pay, feed, click or mic up a drummer. When machines were first making a serious mark on the scene in the 80s a lot of drummers were thinking, "OMG! We're doomed!".

I'm pleasantly surprised how much room in the scene there still is for drummers. There are fewer openings for live music now than when I was young but there are at least still some gigs to be had. There's something that feels so great about live music that the canned stuff can't provide, and not just the visuals.

That's where you get a lot of the non-pop music because pop is usually less satisfying played live than blues, rock, RnB, soul, blues, jazz etc. If a pop song is well-written then can be fantastic. But live, if the sound and playing aren't really spot on live pop can come across as dully one-dimensional - lacking energy, dynamics and texture.

More power to good live music!
 
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That's where you get a lot of the non-pop music because pop is usually less satisfying played live than blues, rock, RnB, soul, blues, jazz etc. If a pop song is well-written then can be fantastic. But live, if the sound and playing aren't really spot on live pop can come across as dully one-dimensional - lacking energy, dynamics and texture.

That's totally true... I'd much rather see a full live band then just a couple singers with mics and someone pushing a button to start the sequencers... i guess maybe they take that money they save on the musicians and pay for backup dancers?
 
It's all in the use though. Live sequencing - done properly - is actually really hard. Honestly, I don't think enough people have really, honestly *tried* most of the technology. Controlling a set from a laptop creatively is hard work and I would argue harder than the work most drummers do. I say this as somebody who has experienced both sides of the field and I honestly find live sequencing harder.
 
I don't mean it is a bad thing. Just interesting. I think it's a reflection of the industry.

I figured you didn't. It is a reflection of the pop music industry, as any for profit venture seeks to replace humans with machines, based on cost savings alone. Can you blame them? Their mission is to maximize profits and cut costs. That said, I also think the frequency of robots on the drummer's throne has peaked many years ago and is falling into the genres where it is most suited. I don't like the way most producers program the music sequences to most pop music these days, not just percussion. It seems to get more elementary by the day, it seems. That's my comment on the pop music in general subject. Musical talent seems to be bowing out of pop music. I realize that programming can be quite difficult and extensive, like Mediocrefunkybeat mentions. I just don't think that modern pop music producers hire people the caliber of him to even lay down their sequences.
 
Musical talent seems to be bowing out of pop music.

Yeah, I agree mainly because so much of the "playing" is done by machines. The only sessions I do are for demos because it's fast. A good friend I sometimes work with does albums here and there and I know the guys at the top of the session list here, but there is not much work.

Guys, it's a really good idea to play other forms of percussion as well as drums. Most sessions I do involve percussion and there is work with DJs. The last demo session I did took 3 hours. I cut 9 tracks on about 14 instruments and got paid for each one. I highly recomend every drummer takes some percussion lessons. There's more work.
 
Doctor S said:
Musical talent seems to be bowing out of pop music.

At the risk of being circular, it depends what you're calling "pop". I'm not so sure. I mean have standards dropped since Tony Orlando and Dawn inflicted Tie A Yellow Ribbon Round the Old Oak Tree on us?

As for rock, is Mitch Mitchell better than the latest crop of metal double-kickers? I like him better, but that's just opinion; I like his style. In metal there have been pretty amazing advances in foot technique, and it doesn't matter that people from previous generations don't like the sound. That's probably the point :)

Programmming is a skill too. Just as not all drummers are the same standard, same with programmers. What's maybe being lost is physical skill, not at the pointy end (as per above), but generally.

Do drummers value physical skill over ideas? Almost all of us value both. Drummers with plenty of both like Tony, Elvin, Bonzo, Keith, Ginger and Bill B are much loved in the drumming community. Even though a guy like Ringo - who had enough technique to express great ideas to get by - is also popular, my feeling is that a lot of drummers place at least as much emphasis on physical as on creativity.

Most of us love a good circus act with its "Wow! How did they do that?" moments and I've seen plenty of drummers who, even if they don't feel like acrobats while playing, a lot of their fans love them for their drumming acrobatics more than their ideas. Check out the comments on YouTube on vids with hotshot drummers.

I like star drumming too, but creativity and feel keeps me engaged for much longer. Machines are no barrier to the former so that can be nice - love Deep Forest.
 
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Home sequencing is hard enough, let alone live. It's heaps easier to set up a kit and go for it. That's why I'm back to it :)

A live person playing a musical instrument...a most excellent notion !

There was a time in the not-so-distant past that musicians (skilled artists who handled an instrument) were cause for excitement when arriving on stage. It's gratifying to know that this is still the case. I just read an interview with Gordon Marshall and he said his first show (as back-up drummer to the Moody Blues) was to a standing crowd of 25,000 music fans. This is what is so exciting to me.

I think people still do crave good music that's performed by gifted players.

I also think people are being introduced to a lesser quality and variety of good music. The corporate take-over of radio stations and the profit-driven push of the label's is a great deal of the reason. The record companies have shot themselves in the foot.

As far as pop-music goes, I agree with what Fantasy studio's top producer Jeffrey Wood has to say on the matter: " The major labels had painted themselves into a corner by not appealing to a wider demographic, by signing bands all to a younger demographic of the under-25-year-olds, with boy-bands in the 1990's and the teen-divas in the 2000s, and not developing music for people in their thirties, forties, fifties. These people buy CDs ! "

So unless you know where to look for good music (or even know what it is) you will be subject to the force feeding of this mindless stuff. Kind of like relying on one-source for all your news.
 
Programmming is a skill too. Just as not all drummers are the same standard, same with programmers. What's maybe being lost is physical skill, not at the pointy end (as per above), but generally.

I agree there... i think that a good groove is very important... and if you compose a good groove and sequence it, it will still be a good groove even if its not played by a live drummer... the problem is, as the good dr. strangelove pointed out, that most hip-hop, r&b rap and other pop genres that use sequencing for drums usually don't have a good musician programming the loops.
 
I agree there... i think that a good groove is very important... and if you compose a good groove and sequence it, it will still be a good groove even if its not played by a live drummer... the problem is, as the good dr. strangelove pointed out, that most hip-hop, r&b rap and other pop genres that use sequencing for drums usually don't have a good musician programming the loops.

I hear you guys ( and MFB ), but man there is something about quantization that puts me off. I don't know, maybe its the cookie cutter approach or whatever.
I use Logic Platinum sometimes when working some of my demos, and even though the quant function program is flexible enough to quant the track in many many ways, its still lacks life..

I realize this is a very personal POV.. not that I dont love some of programmed tracks out there...

what was the point I was making? ... never mind this post.
 
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Quantisation of live drummers irritates me beyond belief. Most of the time, it is just not necessary just like pitch correction on vocalists. It's an extra level of 'perfection' that some producers seem to think makes a better result. The simple truth is that it doesn't. Most of the time, neither are necessary.

However, electronic music is entirely different. I don't quantise in my own personal music-making because I don't need to, but there are times when it is necessary. When I sequence, I sequence in Max/MSP using a defined time code, which triggers samples that I have already edited to kick in properly. Any glitches or time code errors do not phase me, because I like errors. It's as simple as that.
 
At the risk of being circular, it depends what you're calling "pop". I'm not so sure. I mean have standards dropped since Tony Orlando and Dawn inflicted Tie A Yellow Ribbon Round the Old Oak Tree on us?

As for rock, is Mitch Mitchell better than the latest crop of metal double-kickers? I like him better, but that's just opinion; I like his style. In metal there have been pretty amazing advances in foot technique, and it doesn't matter that people from previous generations don't like the sound. That's probably the point :)

Programmming is a skill too. Just as not all drummers are the same standard, same with programmers. What's maybe being lost is physical skill, not at the pointy end (as per above), but generally.

Do drummers value physical skill over ideas? Almost all of us value both. Drummers with plenty of both like Tony, Elvin, Bonzo, Keith, Ginger and Bill B are much loved in the drumming community. Even though a guy like Ringo - who had enough technique to express great ideas to get by - is also popular, my feeling is that a lot of drummers place at least as much emphasis on physical as on creativity.

Most of us love a good circus act with its "Wow! How did they do that?" moments and I've seen plenty of drummers who, even if they don't feel like acrobats while playing, a lot of their fans love them for their drumming acrobatics more than their ideas. Check out the comments on YouTube on vids with hotshot drummers.

I like star drumming too, but creativity and feel keeps me engaged for much longer. Machines are no barrier to the former so that can be nice - love Deep Forest.

I think we could all agree that the proverbial Top 40 listing defines what is pop music. As for physical skill, the baton seems to be passed well from the likes of Palmer, Seraphine, Mitchell, and Baker et al to guys like Rodney Holmes, Dave Mackintosh, and Chris Adler. I am convinced the younger generation has the skills to do it, it's just been pigeon holed in music genres other than pop, like metal and jazz. The producers of pop music are the ones prostituting the music profession with elementary rythms featuring clapping hands and other cartoonish percussive sounds, not the musicians themselves. Bass and keyboards has also suffered in quality just as much as drums have. I'm sure if they could completely synthesize a voice, they could do away with us expensive, temperamental musicians altogether.
 
None of it bugs me, actually, but I'm not trying to make a living out of drumming. As far as I'm concerned it's a matter of "whatever it takes" to get the desired result. I don't care if it's a clapping machine, quantisation, or a robot named Brian that gives the music an enjoyable edge, as long as it works.

Having said that, I do think a lot of people get a kick out of skilled performers live. When it comes to studio work the percentage of people who get off on hot musicianship shrinks dramatically, especially with women. At that point, it's more about lyrics, general meaning and mood, timbres, grooves and melodies. Whether it's a machine or person doing it matters only to a small minority. That's fair enough. If it sounds good and does it for you then the liner notes don't matter unless you like someone's playing enough to follow their other work.

(Exception is vocalists: e.g. all the guys who on hearing Pavlov's Dog's Julia say, "Wow! That chick has such a strong, sexy voice!" before the inevitable letdown on finding that the "chick" was David Surkamp. The fact that he's singing "I can't live without your love" to "Julia" either suggests fantasies about bedding two hot lesbians or not paying attention, almost always the latter).

I agree with MFB that the fetish for perfection is annoying. While I say, "whatever it takes', that's whatever it takes to sound good. I'm not normally one for conspiracy theories but I've long suspected that record companies try to squeeze out indie artists by raising the bar and training people's ears to expect music polished by heaps of expensive gear (and studio time). I mean, when it's a work of art like Aja or Dark Side of the Moon or Sgt Peppers etc then by all means spend lots of time and $$ to create the masterpiece. But Joe Bloggs and his four cute friends who write catchy pop tunes just don't need all the polish.

The net is good; it opens things up and makes it harder for record companies to control.
 
a robot named Brian gives an enjoyable edge,
people who get off on hot musicians, especially with women.
fantasies about bedding two hot lesbians.
the fetish for ... four cute friends
Is it bad that this is all i got out of the last post?
 
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