Another critique request...

larryace said:

My suggestion would be to forget fast and imperfect and practice slow and perfect, watching your trajectories, and listening for even sound. Work each stroke, making sure it has a perfect vertical trajectory. Slow. The best way to increase your accuracy and speed is by control. Control starts at 40 BPM and less. Getting accurate slow, automatically makes your fast playing cleaner. This means working with a metronome. You simply cannot get the accuracy you need without one. I think you work your sticks well, your fingers are involved and the stick is off your palm. Forget the term speed and instead substitute the word control, control comes first. When you have control and accuracy, speed is right around the corner. Better to practice slow and accurate than fast an inaccurate.

All in all I'd say your technique looks good. Going slow will move you ahead faster, it seems backwards but it's not.

Click to expand...

moontheloon said:

Id say go for more control...yr sticks look a bit out of control

and when you go the the paradiddle section.....what your stick heights....try to keep the taps much more quiet than the accents...keep those taps low.....this will give your drumming really nice dynamics and help greatly the control I spoke of earlier ...dynamics seem to be lacking quite a bit here

if your taps volume wise are very near your accents on a pad.....then on a drum they will sound virtually the same ...... exaggerate the the softness of your taps while on the pad .... creating dimension on the kit is the goal when separating taps from accents

and strictly in my opinion your pad is very low.....you may benefit from raising it a bit

Click to expand...

Arky said:

I can only judge as a beginner, but I noticed that w/ French grip your stick (esp. the left one) is moving sideways quite a bit - this is normal as long as you haven't developed good control. I had that phase also but French grip has improved a lot and you can get it up to a level to have full control over the stick so it stays perfectly in place.

Paying attention to the sonic impression only your playing seemed fine to me - the strokes are close to even, the rhythm/note spacing is good.

Your pad is way too low - it might work for you but I think it's no good having your forearms in a negative angle like that. Also it would drive me mad to have the pad moving in the snare basket. You should tighten it up or come up with a way of having the pad stay in place.

Your flams (you didn't play a lot of them) sounded nice to me.

As others have said - just watching closely and paying attention to identical stick height and hand positions/grips/angles etc. is so helpful. Or use a mirror to detect issues.

Click to expand...

bigd said:

You need work on the basic stroke also. You have jumped right into finger strokes without having a decent regular stroke. I didn't watch the doubles.

Click to expand...

cp84 said:

I think that if you were playing on a real snare drum it would sound very very loud.

Good points from Larry.

I think you should try and play what you're playing but a bit slower and softer. I don't think that finger speed is really a priority anyway. You'd be better working on nice smooth doubles. They much more applicable IMO and they can be played super quiet and relaxed.

Click to expand...

brentcn said:

You're a very strong player! If you can figure how to get your forearms, wrists, and fingers working in absolute harmony, you're going to be a monster! I would say that, yes, your grip needs some change, but probably so does your workout routine. In general, you're playing very hard, with somewhat limited dynamics.

Two things stuck out to me:

1. In the first part of the vid, there is some inconsistency, and some sticks hitting each other occasionally. If you listen closely, you have some room to grow in terms of "uniformity of sound", and you can see small shifts in the sticks' trajectories. This is probably because of your American grip approach. I can't help but think that, at that dynamic level and speed, you would be better served with German grip. Actually, it might be useful to practice playing singles as you cycle through all of the grips (German, America, French, and back). This might help you to gain further control of your fulcrum as well.

2. The open-closed-open parts of the vid (doubles and paradiddles) are very telling. You probably aren't able to achieve a much higher top speed, because it will require lower stick heights, and therefore lower volume (which is OK, because, in general, you're playing quite loud!).

I worry about players whose hands point outwards from their wrists as they play. I see your hand stretching below the base of the thumb, and I have read about players getting tendonitis below the thumb and along that part of the wrist and forearm. While the stick should be an extension of the forearm, it should not be in line with it! Rather, the hand should extend straight out from the forearm, and the stick should be at a 30 to 40 degree angle.

Personally, I saw the most improvement after working from Bill Bachman's Rudimental Logic Book and DVD. He demonstrates a free stroke better than anyone, and he has a real knack for devising exercises and drills that "force" you into better technique. And he gives Skype lessons! I also like Jojo Mayer's Secret Weapons DVD for it's demonstration of Moeller technique, the various grips, and finger control exercises.

Click to expand...

Toolate said:

Hey -nothing to say (critically) that hasnt been said but your hands are stupid fast. How long you been at it? I am impressed with your speed. Seems like people are a little too harsh with the commentary understanding of course that you asked for it.

Obvious things to work on but who doesnt have them.

Click to expand...

brentcn said:

You're a very strong player! If you can figure how to get your forearms, wrists, and fingers working in absolute harmony, you're going to be a monster!

Click to expand...

kettles said:

Thanks for the kind words I do spend some time on practicing slowly but probably not nearly enough. What do you suggest I do slowly? Rudiments, stick control, or just individual stokes? I can't really do fingers too slowly, so how can I work on accuracy with that?

Click to expand...

mattsmith said:

I agree with bigd here. Work on the basic stroke first. There is too much inconsistency between the left and right hand. And as I recently told another guy with skills, you can't pour on the finger technique until your basic stroke is even and consistent with obvious motion memory in place. Although it's apparent that you're a good player there is no consistent motion in your stroke. It would be the same as an American baseball player who simply swung for the fences without spending time in the batting cage learning a slower consistent motion. People would say that batter had a hole in his swing. Using that analogy you have a hole in your stroke.

Let me explain.

When you go directly into advanced finger technique (short for emphasis on the index and big fingers) you greatly cheat the development of your 4th finger and pinky which are very important towards steering the stick in a consistent direction and creating the actual control required to play. This problem is at the same time compounded when the base of your stick lands in different areas of your palm. The confused motion then sends a message to your brain to fix all that. So, if you'll notice, you start moving your wrists inward and stiffen them up to compensate. Yeah, it's a small constriction, but all that will add up the longer you stay with your version of finger technique and can lead to the first symptoms of carpal tunnel, if not today then sometime. And trust me...as somebody who used to compete as a speed drummer, I've asked a lot of people about carpal tunnel. So I'm not wrong on that.

Now here's what I meant about your version of finger technique. You have taken the index/big finger concept one step farther by almost exclusively emphasizing the index finger while the big finger is rather passive. Then you have your sticks at world beater heights (I would guess 8" or more). That's why as Larry and others correctly mention, your trajectory is very inconsistent, meaning your sticks are all over the pad.

Then when all this happens, that brain signal thing I talked about sends messages to your wrists and forearms to fix that...then all that other stuff happens and over time you lose flexibility in your stroke with sore wrists besides. I compare this to say a guy like DW forum's own Tom Grossett, who is one of the best pad guys on the planet. You could probably look at his pad and see a worn spot in pretty close to the same place, because he worked on his muscle memory slow at first then faster over long periods of time, and with use of all the fingers on his hand.

Then you HAVE TO lower the sticks to where the trajectory is close to even over hundreds, then thousands of strokes. Guys you see lifting their sticks way off the pad did all these other things first before even trying what you're doing. In fact, I'm amazed you've gotten this far. But trust me, if you don't lower those sticks, then slow it down to develop an even trajectory that in turn helps develop equal strength in both hands... then the wall you're going to hit is coming sooner than later.

See, that's how muscle memory leads to the finger stuff. You use the entire hand first and allow all the fingers to do what they are traditionally supposed to do...because they all play a significant part. The bigger fingers are the engine while the back fingers and the thumb webbing are steerage. When you go right to the big fingers without using the back fingers, the bigger fingers have to work too hard. The key is to use ALL the fingers enough to where you can localize (make the motion smaller and smaller) with the steerage fingers until that area of the hand actually remembers how to steer without using the whole hand.

But that takes a long time. A lot of people for instance like to equate that thumb webbing trad grip thing I sometimes do with a short cut or a gimmick, without considering how long it must have taken to develop enough memory in my hand to do that. And in saying that I'm not trying to prop myself as much as I'm trying to say that a good work ethic is what it is.

In my way of seeing it too many good players who have the potential to be a lot more, don't want to spend the hours needed to work up a basic stroke. That's also why a lot of guys on forums will say Oh he's just using fingers...because over time guys have now equated a very difficult transition with a short cut. And the reason they say that is because many drummers do use finger technique for exactly that reason.

You know you play well. So if it was me, I would want to do all that the right way...first and foremost by lowering my stroke by half and going back to using my whole hand and let my wrists develop a nice relaxed consistent motion.

Click to expand...

keep it simple said:

My "technique" is that poor, there isn't a sub beginner description that's low enough to apply with any credibility. I say you're doing a great job

Click to expand...

mattsmith said:

I agree with bigd here. Work on the basic stroke first. There is too much inconsistency between the left and right hand. And as I recently told another guy with skills, you can't pour on the finger technique until your basic stroke is even and consistent with obvious motion memory in place. Although it's apparent that you're a good player there is no consistent motion in your stroke. It would be the same as an American baseball player who simply swung for the fences without spending time in the batting cage learning a slower consistent motion. People would say that batter had a hole in his swing. Using that analogy you have a hole in your stroke.

Let me explain.

When you go directly into advanced finger technique (short for emphasis on the index and big fingers) you greatly cheat the development of your 4th finger and pinky which are very important towards steering the stick in a consistent direction and creating the actual control required to play. This problem is at the same time compounded when the base of your stick lands in different areas of your palm. The confused motion then sends a message to your brain to fix all that. So, if you'll notice, you start moving your wrists inward and stiffen them up to compensate. Yeah, it's a small constriction, but all that will add up the longer you stay with your version of finger technique and can lead to the first symptoms of carpal tunnel, if not today then sometime. And trust me...as somebody who used to compete as a speed drummer, I've asked a lot of people about carpal tunnel. So I'm not wrong on that.

Now here's what I meant about your version of finger technique. You have taken the index/big finger concept one step farther by almost exclusively emphasizing the index finger while the big finger is rather passive. Then you have your sticks at world beater heights (I would guess 8" or more). That's why as Larry and others correctly mention, your trajectory is very inconsistent, meaning your sticks are all over the pad.

Then when all this happens, that brain signal thing I talked about sends messages to your wrists and forearms to fix that...then all that other stuff happens and over time you lose flexibility in your stroke with sore wrists besides. I compare this to say a guy like DW forum's own Tom Grossett, who is one of the best pad guys on the planet. You could probably look at his pad and see a worn spot in pretty close to the same place, because he worked on his muscle memory slow at first then faster over long periods of time, and with use of all the fingers on his hand.

Then you HAVE TO lower the sticks to where the trajectory is close to even over hundreds, then thousands of strokes. Guys you see lifting their sticks way off the pad did all these other things first before even trying what you're doing. In fact, I'm amazed you've gotten this far. But trust me, if you don't lower those sticks, then slow it down to develop an even trajectory that in turn helps develop equal strength in both hands... then the wall you're going to hit is coming sooner than later.

See, that's how muscle memory leads to the finger stuff. You use the entire hand first and allow all the fingers to do what they are traditionally supposed to do...because they all play a significant part. The bigger fingers are the engine while the back fingers and the thumb webbing are steerage. When you go right to the big fingers without using the back fingers, the bigger fingers have to work too hard. The key is to use ALL the fingers enough to where you can localize (make the motion smaller and smaller) with the steerage fingers until that area of the hand actually remembers how to steer without using the whole hand.

But that takes a long time. A lot of people for instance like to equate that thumb webbing trad grip thing I sometimes do with a short cut or a gimmick, without considering how long it must have taken to develop enough memory in my hand to do that. And in saying that I'm not trying to prop myself as much as I'm trying to say that a good work ethic is what it is.

In my way of seeing it too many good players who have the potential to be a lot more, don't want to spend the hours needed to work up a basic stroke. That's also why a lot of guys on forums will say Oh he's just using fingers...because over time guys have now equated a very difficult transition with a short cut. And the reason they say that is because many drummers do use finger technique for exactly that reason.

You know you play well. So if it was me, I would want to do all that the right way...first and foremost by lowering my stroke by half and going back to using my whole hand and let my wrists develop a nice relaxed consistent motion.

Click to expand...

keep it simple said:

My "technique" is that poor, there isn't a sub beginner description that's low enough to apply with any credibility. I say you're doing a great job

Click to expand...

dmacc said:

I agree with this!

One suggestion that hasn't been listed yet that I'd strongly consider.

If you have one available and the time/financial resources, you may want to consider finding a professionally classically trained percussionist / teacher who will assist you with this transition in development.

From experience, I spent 3 years with one at a locally famous music university and it completely changed the way I'd approach control and technique from then on. All we worked on for 3 solid years was the hands.

Otherwise, I'm not sure what else I can add that hasn't already been mentioned. Stick heights, dynamics, tempo, etc.... These points aren't just for you to do - it's an ongoing learning process for all of us.

Keep it up and you'll be a monster for sure.

Click to expand...

larryace said:

My suggestion is start at the beginning, one stroke per click, alternating hands, at 40 BPM or less for like 1 hour straight. Your goal is to remove all the bugs and just get your basic stroke picture perfect, in every way, at a stupid slow tempo. After you get your basic alternating stroke COMPLETELY MASTERED, then you progress from there. This may take a few weeks, working your basic stroke. Best time you'll ever spend too. Everyone with stroke issues, IMO needs to go back to the first day of first grade. Not that your technique is rotten, not at all. I just believe that getting a perfect slow stroke, that buries the click on a met, needs to be mastered before progressing. That way you have the most basic of basic covered, a perfectly even stroke. The benefits of this one stupid exercise will amaze you, I kid you not.

Click to expand...

bigd said:

Going back to learn a proper wrist stroke and grip would be a good idea. It will help a lot with endurance and it will definately help with your doubles. Do you have a teacher that can help you? I think you'd be best served by spending time with a quality instructor. Technique is something that takes years to develop and maintain.

Click to expand...

mattsmith said:

I agree with bigd here. Work on the basic stroke first. There is too much inconsistency between the left and right hand. And as I recently told another guy with skills, you can't pour on the finger technique until your basic stroke is even and consistent with obvious motion memory in place. Although it's apparent that you're a good player there is no consistent motion in your stroke. It would be the same as an American baseball player who simply swung for the fences without spending time in the batting cage learning a slower consistent motion. People would say that batter had a hole in his swing. Using that analogy you have a hole in your stroke.

Click to expand...

bigd said:

Matt,
You are one patient young man. I could never have been patient enough to write a response like that. There is so much that goes into developing technique that most people don't understand or take the time to do, but it's what sets apart the good from the great. I've been in the front row watching my 16 year old develop solid technique for snare/set/timpani as well as 4 mallet marimba. He's spent hours upon hours (a lazy day for him is at the very least 3-4 hours). I wish the OP luck and hope he's serious enough to go back and develp correctly.

Bigd

Click to expand...

mattsmith said:

Now here's what I meant about your version of finger technique. You have taken the index/big finger concept one step farther by almost exclusively emphasizing the index finger while the big finger is rather passive. Then you have your sticks at world beater heights (I would guess 8" or more). That's why as Larry and others correctly mention, your trajectory is very inconsistent, meaning your sticks are all over the pad.

Then you HAVE TO lower the sticks to where the trajectory is close to even over hundreds, then thousands of strokes. Guys you see lifting their sticks way off the pad did all these other things first before even trying what you're doing. In fact, I'm amazed you've gotten this far. But trust me, if you don't lower those sticks, then slow it down to develop an even trajectory that in turn helps develop equal strength in both hands... then the wall you're going to hit is coming sooner than later.

Click to expand...