Losing my religion ;)

I touched this in another thread and didn't really get a response to it, so I wanted to pose this question here to see what everyone really thinks (if anything).

The reason I say "Losing my religion", is that for all of my life, I've always maintained at least one really nice drumset. One that matched, one that would get pulled out for that all-important gig or recording session, one that had the technically "correct" sizes....and I've come to realize over the years, that I always have the most fun when I'm playing some vintage old beat-up kit. Unlike Larry, I actually love the sound of vintage, out-of-round classic Ludwigs (or Slingerlands, or Rogers, or.....). So while I've always had these really nice expensive kits, I've also always have had these semi-classic beater kits that I've always kept for rehearsals, or when I play in dive bars, or other questionable venues.

Likewise, whenever I show up with the modern Pearls or DW kits, other drummers tell me how cool they are (at my last gig with the DW's, I let a guy sit in on my kit and he said he didn't want to beat on them too hard because they're too pretty - go figure that one). But that's where it stops. When I showed up with my Bonham Ludwig kit at a gig a few weeks ago, actual women came up and said things like "I love that bass drum", or "How cool is that?" Actual people who know less about my instruments offer me exciting opinions - maybe because the old vintage stuff no longer looks 'generic'?

So, maybe at this age, I should just lose the religion altogether. Why am I keeping the nice drum sets? Truth be told, I've not done a lot of professional recording. Quincy Jones hasn't called me to play on anything huge. So it's pretty clear I won't be replacing JR Robinson on anything. I get a gig with Disney, and they provide the stuff. If it's important that someone wants a certain look, they're gonna take care of that anyway in my case.

OTOH, I'll play with any good solid band, anywhere. Most venues are not really nice, but it's good people, good music, and fun. And since those gigs usually require most of the hits anywhere from 1930 to 1980s, the vintage kits used are all that's really required. Heck, some old vintage kits I've had were probably used to make some of those old recordings! And like I said, the girls dig 'em!

So, looking at my current labor-of-love Bonham kit, with it's 14/16/18/26 configuration in thermagloss maple, I have the rock n roll visual covered. I have a Ludwig 9x13 tom in dark walnut maple (an orphan) being worked on now so I can do a Buddy Rich set-up with 13/16 toms and the 26 bass drum. Heck, if I added a 14x22 Ludwig bass drum (in any color, maybe black), I'd have the 13/16/22 spectrum covered as well (covering both Joe Morello and Ringo Starr).

And I'll stop listening to that voice that tells me "you should have something new and modern for those upcoming spectacular gigs". That voice hasn't been right yet, you know?

I guess it's cool to be in a position to be able to do whatever I need to do, but when I look at the essentials I need to do this making-music thing, I've never needed much.

Andy's right - I'll probably never be sold a Guru kit. Although I admire those drums and the painstaking craftsmanship used to make them, to use those to play Mustang Sally (which I don't mind) just seems wrong.

I'm sure this thread is just a downer to those guys here who like to talk about what their dream kit should be

I feel and hear you man. I feel Ive had a similar journey in that regard. I think I finally realized I dont want that perfect sounding, pure, in a vacuum drum sound. I want a funky, clunky, full of character sound.....one that only I can tame and control through intimately knowing my unique instrument. Im kinda dreaming there, but I agree. But honestly, I want both options....and have neither lol sigh

Why can't there be a middle ground though? I mean, the old Ludwig kits don't sound bad by any means, and the same can be said about old Yamaha and gretsch kits. I agree the newer high end drums like the fancy DW kits or sakea or the more expensive Yamaha kits definitely have a certain sound (kind of vacuumed sound like boogie said) but in my opinion some of the older kits sound as good or even better. Not to mention the older kits cost much less. I've never owned a fancy high end brand new kit, so maybe I'm biased, but I've played the newer kits and I've never played one that I thought sounded better than my older kit

williamsbclontz said:

Why can't there be a middle ground though? I mean, the old Ludwig kits don't sound bad by any means, and the same can be said about old Yamaha and gretsch kits. I agree the newer high end drums like the fancy DW kits or sakea or the more expensive Yamaha kits definitely have a certain sound (kind of vacuumed sound like boogie said) but in my opinion some of the older kits sound as good or even better. Not to mention the older kits cost much less. I've never owned a fancy high end brand new kit, so maybe I'm biased, but I've played the newer kits and I've never played one that I thought sounded better than my older kit

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Well, to answer you question, in my case, there's no need for a middle ground. Why I would have a high-end kit doesn't exist. And the reality is the Ludwigs I have, were at one time "high end". So I actually have them already, and they've been giving me the sound I've needed all these years (old Slingerlands and Rogers have also given me what I need too, but the fact that Ludwig still exists and you can get them fixed, or get spare parts, is a huge plus).

And to be brutally truthful, I kick myself for being idiotic about searching for "that elusive" sound when I've already had it all these years. Every time I get new heads for the DW kit, the snare drum takes so dang long to tame down and make it sound very cool. By contrast, I put new heads on my ol' Supraphonic and I don't even have to hit it to know it'll be where I need it when I'm done. The new modern kits, some are better than others. Pearl was very cool in the tuning regard, but iffy in the head selection department. With the older stuff, I could put whatever heads on it, and get to the sound I need fairly easily.

So I may be on this path already - I'm scouring around for a 16x22 Ludwig bass drum to add to my current shell bank and I think I already found one. It's from the 90s, and it's stained black! It'll match the rest because it's stained. Imagine a four-piece 16x22/9x13/16x16, but the bass is stained black, the 13 is stained red-brown, and the 16x16 is thermagloss maple. That would be tragically hip!

I have an offer out so I'm waiting to see what the seller says.

I hear you loud and clear Bo. I've had a new set of Yamaha Live Customs for two years now. I love the color and sound of them.
I brought them in case I ever have an important large venue gig. They have never seen the light of day and are still packed away. End of story............

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My kit is from the early 80s, I bought it used and it has it's fair share of dings and scratches. Nothing serious at all, but it's probably seen the stage multiple times. But it still looks pretty good, and the sound is awesome. It's a great kit though because I can gig with it, be assured it will sound good, and not worry too much about it getting scratched or knicked. I have a few other kits but nothing as nice as this one and I wouldn't trade it for any high end kit on the market today.

Also, how come drums lose value so significantly after a few minor scratches or dings. You see old fender guitars that have been completely worn down priced ridiculously high. I mean, I don't want to buy a drum kit that's finish has been completely destroyed. But at the same time shell quality should count for something right? You can buy some really high quality old drums for great prices if there are a few scratches on the finish or lugs.

I was somewhat reminded of this dilemma when I saw a YouTube video featuring Willie Nelson's guitar, Trigger. His old Martin guitar is so beat up, there's even a hole on the top! His guitar technician works on his guitar but it must remain looking the same.

Then I think about Charlie Watts and his beloved 50s Gretsch with the round badges. He said he bought those drums used in the 70s, and the were already old then! He still uses them today. Blows my mind reading about his kit and what kind of maintenance they must do to his kit compared to someone like Neil Peart, and his whole entourage of crew and gear.

The stained black Ludwig bass drum is looking good so far

And the stained black Ludwig bass drum is mine. I've departed down the path.

Anyone looking for some DW Collector's drums?

Bo Eder said:

And I'll stop listening to that voice that tells me "you should have something new and modern for those upcoming spectacular gigs". That voice hasn't been right yet, you know?

I guess it's cool to be in a position to be able to do whatever I need to do, but when I look at the essentials I need to do this making-music thing, I've never needed much.

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That 'voice' though, is due to a gene in many of us that makes it feel good to buy or try something new. Many of us respond to it differently, and the response is also financial too.
Its true, most don't need much at all. After a long 'snare journey' I've returned to my simplistic little old Supra. I scratch my head now as to why I did all this 'searching'.
And personally I think its far more interesting how a drummer uses something so old for so long, say like Charlie Watts. He does change up snares though. Does Neil Peart still use his old Slingerland snare?

I like the old vintage kits too, although I don't own one. I recently passed on a 66 Ludwig. It was in white marine pearl and in sizes that I love; 22, 12, 16 and aside from the expected yellowing was in good shape. The price was good too. Right now I just can't justify getting one. My band has been doing a lot of showcase gigs, far more often than others. In that type of situation I just can't see doing the hurry up, load in, set up, tear down & load out with a vintage kit. That seems like too much wear and tear in a short time. I'd love to get my hands on a Rogers holiday kit someday, but not yet.

opentune said:

Does Neil Peart still use his old Slingerland snare?

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I bet he still has it, he just never used it out with Rush since becoming a DW guy. It is interesting how some people constantly search and try new things, and then end up back where they started - I'm so guilty of that. I think now that I'm approaching the twilight and perhaps (hopefully) retiring in the next 14 years, I wonder why I'm still looking. Especially when I know I'll go back to the tried and true anyway.

The more I think about it, the more I like the skin I'm wearing. A drummer's signature is his groove and people will either like it or not. I think I've been lucky that enough people that mattered to me like my groove, as I'm sure there are enough people who hate it too. But I think I'm ok. And I've realized that my groove isn't affected by the stuff I may be playing at that time. It'll always sound that way regardless.

Talk about a generation gap: I was talking to a younger drummer the other day and our priorities are so different. I came away thinking, "God I hope I didn't just bore the older guys to tears...."

Some people love collecting instruments, and have the space to store them as well as the money to pay for them. I prefer to only have one set which I use for everything (although I don't necessarily use the whole set for everything). Since I do a fair amount of recording (mostly for my own bands) my drums have to be in good condition and sound great.

Vintage gear doesn't do it for me. Vintage violins or guitars make some sense to me, but drums today are much better quality than anything made 50 years ago. Older drums can sound better in some cases due to the wood itself aging, but the hardware and mounts were generally subpar compared to newer models.

Bo Eder said:

I was somewhat reminded of this dilemma when I saw a YouTube video featuring Willie Nelson's guitar, Trigger. His old Martin guitar is so beat up, there's even a hole on the top! His guitar technician works on his guitar but it must remain looking the same.

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I've watched those videos. He speaks in such a calm voice. Meanwhile, I'm on the edge of my seat, "sh*t! sh*t! sh*t! sh*t!" as I envision the day that he's got to break the bad news.

Vintage gear, to me, seems to be something to have as a collectible that does not get played.

My drums are two simple kits: A TJS Custom Maple that I really love, and has been with me for over 10 years, and a beater Gretsch. I have nothing super-flashy or overly-expensive.

My guitars are actually more relevant, in a way. Since I have nowhere to play acoustic drums these days, the guitars take up space in my office, and get attention. There are some expensive ones, with some really great features. But then there's this $130 Fender acoustic, and I play it as much as the others. Guess which one gets to go to the park?

I suppose if I had a house, then I'd have the space to keep a super-cool, flashy drum set, and actually get to play it. If I could play it, then I think having that kit is something you do for myself more than anything else.

That's how the nice guitars are for me. They're for me, and not because I'm going to be doing anything spectacular anywhere else for anyone else. Just me.

Treat yourself and have fun, if it makes you happy and doesn't get in the way of anything.

Just to keep things in perspective:

For 80% of my gigs I use my Yamaha Stage Customs. I paid $340 for them; bass drum and four toms. The rest of my kit, snare, cymbals, pedals and other hardware cost me about $2000.

Sometimes I'll use my 1958 Slingerland shells but I use the same $2000 worth of other hardware. My point is it seems like I can change out the drum shells and use different sets for cheap.


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Yep, I have also been round and round and ended up back where I started - a red Mapex Mars (but this time it's called an M Birch)

My most expensive things now are snares, but even still I haven't paid more than £550 and I now have 5 that suit all of requirements.

I tried a boutique snare but it really didn't work for me so I sent it back.

I reckon if you put a nice resonant head on the kick drum, most people won't know or care what you're playing as long as it looks cool and sounds good. Most vintage and cheap kits will give you exactly what you want.

Snares are more complex and so require a bit more engineering, but with regards to tubs, it's just wood and metal.

As long as it's got attack and a nice controlled decay/tone, it'll do for me.

I recently sold my Sonor Prolite and bought a Mapex M Birch and they work so much better for me, or at least, provide infinitely better value for money.

If you are finding that the right tool for the job are those old Ludwigs, then by all means, just play the old Ludwigs. The only reason I have multiple drum sets is because I hate setting up and tearing down all of the time.

I'm like a yo yo when it comes to this. I'm going to be 64 tomorrow and keep thinking to myself at 66 your backing off. Maybe play a few gigs that I want to play rather than being committed to over 150 show per year.

With the gear thing I keep going through phases but the one constant is 80% of the time it's my 4 piece Magstar maple kit in aqua sparkle wrap and my Ludwig 402. Drums sound sweet and look great and with the wrap they take a beating. I grabbed the kit off ebay for $500 about 7 years ago.

I have a Yamaha Live Custom 20 and 22 bass, 10, 12,14,16 toms and I know I will never use this whole kit on a gig. I will split it up at times for a 20,10,14 or 22,12,16 but I could sell the whole thing and do just fine with the Magstar kit.

My 71 Slingerlands are setup in house and after having them rehabbed they sound great again.

Could be a big drum sale coming up soon

The house kit at my local pub is a 1980 Ludwig modular in a walnut stain.
Deep 12, 13, 16, 22 + a supraphonic with cast rims. I play there once or twice a month. Its way bigger than any of my gigging kits, but its already there, supplied on stage, ready to go.

It has a certain feel to it, a kind of authority, like its the real deal for rock music. If you're ever in South Australia I could get you a gig there and you'd feel right at home.

Morrisman said:

The house kit at my local pub is a 1980 Ludwig modular in a walnut stain.
Deep 12, 13, 16, 22 + a supraphonic with cast rims. I play there once or twice a month. Its way bigger than any of my gigging kits, but its already there, supplied on stage, ready to go.

It has a certain feel to it, a kind of authority, like its the real deal for rock music. If you're ever in South Australia I could get you a gig there and you'd feel right at home.

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Those as the same age as the thermogloss maples I have now. Still being used 37 years later!

I have never owned nor played a 26 bd.

18-20-22-24 yes and they kind of all felt like bass drums as I like pretty tight bd heads, but never a 26.

Apart from the obvious tom placement issue, what would make them not too versatile ? The difference I noticed has always been depth-related, as I would get a quicker response with a 14 inch deep kick.

Growing up with 22x18 means deeper drums are my normal to me while 14 or 12 depth feel like playing the beater against a rock. So between a 22x14 and 24x14 in a same model, I would get a lower fundamental note from the kick but pretty much the same response.

So a 26 would just have a lower fundamental note ?