DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > General Discussion

General Discussion General discussion forum for all drum related topics. Use this forum to exchange ideas and information with your fellow drummers.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #1  
Old 11-15-2015, 02:13 PM
Duck Tape's Avatar
Duck Tape Duck Tape is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Sydney
Posts: 4,484
Default Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

I don't know how important a back story is really but I'll provide one.

Recently my new band backed a nationally successful artist and they had a renowned drummer as a hired gun. I had heard his name before but never seen him. A gun he was, especially his licks and stick tricks. I think he was pulling lots of Virgil's old moves, like he'd really studied older videos and successfully nailed them. I'm not sure if anyone remembers Virgil used to play some sort of double kick/tom roll and spin the sticks before every crash cymbal hit. This guy could do it perfectly among other things.

Anyway. I let him use my kit so when I went up to get my things after his performance he struck up a conversation with me. He said he was watching my set from the crowd and was impressed with my time and feel and stuff, and asked what I was working on. I said that I wanted to get my licks, chops and solos happening a bit more and he seemed to agree, I think he was agreeing that it was maybe my weakness, which is a criticism I humbly accept from a drummer such as him. I went on to explain that I could do much more in my practice room but getting on stage just seems to retard my chops a bit. He said that he had the same problem, which made me laugh, but he was being serious. He said that he was doing even more awesome stuff in the practice room.

He told me that I need to "just not give a f#$k" and to "go for it", in other words take risks.

I know this groove vs chops debate always sparks criticism from the groovers (and I have seen chops guys that couldn't keep time to save their life too) but it is my belief that drummers really win people over with the appropriately timed solo, big tom fill, fast hands, stick tricks and some double kick action. Needless to say they have all the grooving down. Sure there are some famous drummers who are all about the groove but there are 10 famous drummers with chops (+ groove) for every Steve Jordan type.

So I am committed to getting my chops happening more. I am a performing drummer and I am content that my time is pretty good and want to get a bit more showmanship happening. I am trying to cover a few different angles as to why it's so much harder to do things on stage, as well as get some tips on where I should be looking to learn some good chops.

All I really know is a few linear chops from the gary chaffee stuff I practice, some quads from my metal days and a few rudimental things I've invented over the years. I could trawl through videos and pick out things I want to learn but hopefully I can find some notated examples transcribed by others. Does anyone care to comment?
__________________
Watch a purdie shuffle here!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFPmH1wrSiQ
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-15-2015, 02:20 PM
GruntersDad's Avatar
GruntersDad GruntersDad is offline
Administrator - Mayor
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Gulf Coast Seminole, Florida
Posts: 22,368
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

The chops or fills that you use while practicing, are they yours or someone elses, or a combination of both? Since they work for you I would use these while giggling and build from there. Unless you are playing a cover, others may not fit. Nice to have someone known take the one-on-one time after a show.
__________________
Johnny. Pictured left to right, Bermuda, Weird Al, Grunt.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-15-2015, 02:57 PM
Odd-Arne Oseberg's Avatar
Odd-Arne Oseberg Odd-Arne Oseberg is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Sykkylven, Møre og Romsdal, Norway
Posts: 3,896
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

To me there have always been 3 levels

1) Practice room.

2) Band rehearsal

3) Live performance

The lines have become blured with time because you become aware of the differences. These are not necessarily the same for everybody. It's a cross between confidence, aural things and environmental things as well as just how conscious you we of quality and presence while practicing alone.


My approach to music has always been about building a general vocabulary and improvise with concepts. I did that as a young sax player, as guitar player and now the same is true for how I approach drums. It's how I think my hero Vinnie probably apporoaches things, too. Your approach to playing music might be different.

Are you just learning licks and lines to put into situations rubatum?

What are good chops?

I'm thinking there might be a more Gruber style answer that's fitting.
__________________
So, kick drum...or...bass drum? I'll tell you what. If it's 18" or less, it's a FOOT TOM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-15-2015, 03:14 PM
mikel mikel is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Midlands. England.
Posts: 2,266
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

The reason I dont take all my chops into the stage is probably the same as a lot of drummers. During practice I am doing just that, practicing, trying and perfecting everything I know and working up new stuff. If I played the way I sometimes practice it would be totally over the top and not pertinent to the song.

Just because you can play a fill or a groove does not mean you have to. Play for the song. If its pertinent to the song and fits the mood then go for it, not just because you can and you want to shoehorn it in.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-15-2015, 05:14 PM
No Way Jose's Avatar
No Way Jose No Way Jose is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Between the hi hat and floor tom
Posts: 960
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

My attitude is (regarding the rest of the band) "my job is to make you look and sound good." That's different from playing my flashiest, or grooves or fills or anything. It's hard to define. I make them sound good, and I keep getting lots of work.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-15-2015, 05:28 PM
larryace's Avatar
larryace larryace is offline
"Uncle Larry"
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In beautiful Bucks County, PA
Posts: 21,249
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

My experience is it takes a lot of time for the practice stuff to surface on the bandstand.

Good luck on your quest. I'd watch your motivations though. Trying to do something to win over the crowd...you're trying to impress people.

Everybody is different, but attempting to impress anyone...never worked for me. Believe it or not the opposite is true for me.

But everyone is different and the things that plague me, hopefully they won't plague you.
__________________
Levis/Hanes/Timberlands/Custom made socks
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-15-2015, 06:39 PM
Captain Bash Captain Bash is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 521
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

All depends what and how you practice.

When on my own I work on a concept (both physical delivery and abstract vision) and try to work this up both as a beat/a hybrid beat and fill/ and fill. To me there is continuum between beat and fill, although I accept this isn't how drums are taught or people practice. My preference being the grey area between the two. Then I have a fair bit of flexibility as to when I introduce the new ideas.

The worst thing you can do is try to force new ideas into a band context before you have them down, I use band rehearsals for testing combinations. I find I can only transfer brand new ideas if I can execute the idea really well on my own. Delivering at a gig is always harder becuase, the sound maybe a bit off, the lights are at just the wrong angle and the drum riser a bit wobbly !
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-16-2015, 04:02 AM
brentcn brentcn is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,942
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duck Tape View Post
So I am committed to getting my chops happening more. I am a performing drummer and I am content that my time is pretty good and want to get a bit more showmanship happening. I am trying to cover a few different angles as to why it's so much harder to do things on stage, as well as get some tips on where I should be looking to learn some good chops.

All I really know is a few linear chops from the gary chaffee stuff I practice, some quads from my metal days and a few rudimental things I've invented over the years. I could trawl through videos and pick out things I want to learn but hopefully I can find some notated examples transcribed by others. Does anyone care to comment?
No reason you can't be both a groove master and a chops master, right? When to use each skill is a matter of musical maturity, unless you're very well known for doing one and not the other.

As for where to grab licks -- anywhere, and don't feel like it's "cheating", because nobody owns licks. Besides, you'll probably figure out your own variations or voicings that you prefer.

The flashy stuff will get you noticed, and quite possibly hired. But grooving well is a must-have these days.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-16-2015, 05:37 AM
JustJames's Avatar
JustJames JustJames is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 3,171
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

Quote:
Originally Posted by brentcn View Post
No reason you can't be both a groove master and a chops master, right?
No, that's completely wrong.

You need to approach the two as completely antithetical to each other, and cite some example of a famous drummer showing one side of the coin and then argue that said drummer is purely a chops/groove drummer.

Don't come round here with your sensible measured responses! ;)
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-16-2015, 09:35 AM
Duck Tape's Avatar
Duck Tape Duck Tape is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Sydney
Posts: 4,484
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

I tried to steer people from preaching the old "less is more" but it still happened lol, so to those people, I'll give you one reason (of several) why I want to be able to play some better licks on stage: because my band asked me to.

They said they wished I would play some more fills. And whenever I do occasionally pull something out of the bag I get a cheeky grin from at least one person in the band. And when I play a flashy solo at a gig the crowd get excited, moreso if I can play a good one. I would like to be able to play a good one whenever I want, that's the point of the thread I suppose.

A drummer should be able to entertain as well as keep time, I'm sure of that.
__________________
Watch a purdie shuffle here!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFPmH1wrSiQ
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-16-2015, 02:14 PM
93civEJ1 93civEJ1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 271
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

I know the feeling man. I am all groove here....and I feel that I am boring and lacking as a drummer. Sure I get gigs, but to me, im boring. I am wanting to get my licks down , but like you, I dont know what it is that I am needing to begin on what I am missing.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-16-2015, 03:03 PM
Bonzo_CR's Avatar
Bonzo_CR Bonzo_CR is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: A Brit living in Switzerland
Posts: 856
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

I like to play for the song as much as the next guy, but I also like to work on expanding my phrasing/vocabulary. All I need is some inspiration.
Sometimes I just watch some video for fun, and there's usually something that catches my attention so I decide to have a go at that. Also ideas sometimes come from books, or something on this forum, etc.
This year I've spent time on Jazz and Drum'n'Bass phrasing amongst other things - and I've learnt loads from both!
Whatever I'm working on, I keep at it until it feels like it's 'absorbed' into my natural range of phrasing. This can take a while.
Eventually it it comes out 'naturally' when practicing, and when playing with the band.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-16-2015, 04:00 PM
larryace's Avatar
larryace larryace is offline
"Uncle Larry"
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In beautiful Bucks County, PA
Posts: 21,249
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

A couple of points I'd like to raise...
This whole thread, and correct me if this is off, is about elevating one's playing....or a portion of one's playing... to a level that is higher than the one presently in. In this thread, elevating the playing is equated with more chops, better chops, better licks...

Which is fine.

However...

I think that this approach is kind of tunneled visioned. It's a fine goal, I'm not knocking it in any way. I just think that the proposition should be put forth...that there are ways of improving yourself, very noticeably, using your existing skillset.

Kind of like a puzzle. Like OK here's your skill set. Your skill set can only get to level "C". But you need to get to level "D". How will you accomplish this while still using your existing skill set? By thinking outside the box. By using your existing skill set in ways you never used before...a different approach perhaps.

My point is, there's creative ways to improve, that utilizes your existing skill set, and it's good to recognize this and explore these ways....in addition to learning new stuff.

I'm not really good on chops threads, I try and think in opposite terms actually. Not my style at all. Most of the times when I hear drummers throwing chops around, they are doing it for them, not the benefit of the song. I mean if you're going to kind of hog the spotlight for a few seconds, at least pick a good spot to do it....and do something that actually makes things sound better, instead of detracting, which is what usually ends up happening.

Drums can be the big loud inappropriate blowhard on stage in the wrong hands. I just get the feeling that if you can pull it off cleanly, that a drummer can drop chops in anywhere, which I don't subscribe to. I feel there needs to be an actual musical reason to put something like that in. Like "Because I felt like it" is not a good answer to the question "why you put that fill in that stepped all over the best part of the lyric?".
__________________
Levis/Hanes/Timberlands/Custom made socks
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-16-2015, 08:00 PM
brentcn brentcn is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,942
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
In this thread, elevating the playing is equated with more chops, better chops, better licks...
No one here is saying that more chops = better player. More noticeable and memorable player? Quite possibly. If you add some licks and phrases to your playing, then the rest of your playing is just as good (or as bad) as it was before you added the licks and phrases. If your groove needs work, shedding gospel chops linear licks won't help.

Quote:
because my band asked me to.
That's a pretty good reason. If there's room in the music, or the expectation for flashy drumming is somehow already there, then making the crazy licks and phrases fit into the music is your job. If it's a solo (and it's not a traditional jazz or big band gig), then there's really no limit to the flashiness of what you can play.

The Chaffee linear stuff, and the Chaffee approach to stockings (The Technique Patterns book) are fundamental; most crazy licks will involve some amount of linear phrasing and/or rudiment combinations. Past this, many licks have nearly become standardized. For example:

1. "Bonham triplets"
2. Double bass "quadruplets" and "sextuplets"
3. Steve Gadd's ratamacue around the kit.
4. Steve Gadd's linear 32nd note groove/fill.
5. The heirta (newer rudiment used often by Billy Cobham, Neil Peart, and Carter Beauford).
6. Tony Williams' "blushda"
There are many, many others, of course.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-16-2015, 08:20 PM
tcspears tcspears is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 1,061
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duck Tape View Post
I think he was pulling lots of Virgil's old moves, like he'd really studied older videos and successfully nailed them. I'm not sure if anyone remembers Virgil used to play some sort of double kick/tom roll and spin the sticks before every crash cymbal hit. This guy could do it perfectly among other things.
This might be a style thing, but if I see a drummer doing that I would just giggle. Stuff like stick twirls has very little to do do with drumming and more to do with showmanship. I used to be able to pull off some cool foot tricks with a soccer ball... they didn't help me play the game any better, and I certainly didn't become the next Pele...

Don't get me wrong stage presence is important, it's what gets you noticed by the people you aren't playing music with. The people that you are playing music with, are more than likely focusing on your ability to play with them. Call it grooving or being in the pocket, but a band is going to be looking for someone that can play conversationally with them and on their level.

Rather than worrying about specific chops, or showmanship tricks. Focus on your listening skills, and being able to interact with the band more. It sounds like they are saying that you aren't interacting on the same level as them. As far as stage presence, try moving around a little more, it won't really do anything for your playing, but it will make you look like you're enjoying it a lot more.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 11-16-2015, 09:14 PM
Otto Otto is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,585
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

I suggest recording all your 'gigs'.

Then take the time to check what you played...and see if you truly want to be playing "more".

I would also suggest doing a post-op conversation with the $ holder...and see what they have to say.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 11-16-2015, 09:48 PM
mitkoni's Avatar
mitkoni mitkoni is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Vancouver BC
Posts: 200
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

Thomas Lang says "Practice more complicated stuff, so you can play easier things with confidence". I agree with this. You need push away harder in the practice room and be really confident at the gig. But of course, sometimes the magic happens when we go outside the comfort zone and you just need to play what feels right and even take risks. Especially if the gig allows it.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-17-2015, 11:07 AM
Duck Tape's Avatar
Duck Tape Duck Tape is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Sydney
Posts: 4,484
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

Well if I think about it, one major roadblock is if I don't have the ideal live setup, it's always different from my home setup in that I can't have my rack toms in the same spot because I am not using a rack and I don't have a tom mount fitted to any bass drums (I still need screws to fit my tama tom mount onto the kick). I have been mounting 2 rack toms from a stand but I can never seem to get them in a good spot.

And I guess to a degree my mind goes blank on stage when it comes to anything like a big fill. Creativity is definitely stifled. I think someone said I should keep an idea of something I intend to do in my mind and use it when the time is right. I agree with that. Thanks to those who answered the question I asked.
__________________
Watch a purdie shuffle here!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFPmH1wrSiQ
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11-17-2015, 12:12 PM
Galadrm's Avatar
Galadrm Galadrm is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 257
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitkoni View Post
Thomas Lang says "Practice more complicated stuff, so you can play easier things with confidence". I agree with this. You need push away harder in the practice room and be really confident at the gig. But of course, sometimes the magic happens when we go outside the comfort zone and you just need to play what feels right and even take risks. Especially if the gig allows it.
Completely agree with this. For me at least, my practice ability will be far above my "live" ability. But the two are proportional in growth, so if I am constantly pushing myself with practice I will see my live performance improve. I dont play too many fills with my band myself, and I think it can be hard finding reason to if you dont feel the extra flashiness is needed. I guess applying the chops in band practice would be the best way to incorporate them live. Maybe even dedicate 10 minutes at band practice where you play a few songs and just go crazy with the fills? That would be fun...

Just out of interest who was the band you opened for if you dont mind me asking?
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 11-17-2015, 04:22 PM
Groov-E Groov-E is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Canada
Posts: 892
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitkoni View Post
Thomas Lang says "Practice more complicated stuff, so you can play easier things with confidence". I agree with this. You need push away harder in the practice room and be really confident at the gig. But of course, sometimes the magic happens when we go outside the comfort zone and you just need to play what feels right and even take risks. Especially if the gig allows it.
That is great advice.

If you can play "easier" thing with confidence, that will get you through any gig. And if you step into the zone and let loose, you can either push the engine to 5000 RPM and see where it gets you since you practiced at 5500, and still have the possibility to pull back to 4000 RPM and still make it sound good (and look cool too).
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 11-17-2015, 05:56 PM
brentcn brentcn is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,942
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duck Tape View Post
Well if I think about it, one major roadblock is if I don't have the ideal live setup, it's always different from my home setup in that I can't have my rack toms in the same spot because I am not using a rack and I don't have a tom mount fitted to any bass drums (I still need screws to fit my tama tom mount onto the kick). I have been mounting 2 rack toms from a stand but I can never seem to get them in a good spot.

And I guess to a degree my mind goes blank on stage when it comes to anything like a big fill. Creativity is definitely stifled. I think someone said I should keep an idea of something I intend to do in my mind and use it when the time is right. I agree with that. Thanks to those who answered the question I asked.
Well, you could start intentionally altering your set up at home, in order to get used to the set ups you'll encounter on gigs. Play a four piece for a month or two, then a five. Set up your kit so that it looks normal, rather than setting it up so that you can reach everything with ease. Make your body conform to the kit a little, and tweak your technique to make it happen. The conventional wisdom is that a drummer should angle and shift until a kit feels good, but your experience is the downside to this sort of thinking.

If your mind is "going blank" when it comes to big fills, then you need to change how you're practicing when it comes to moving patterns around the kit, and improvising. But now we're getting into private lesson territory. Get with a (good) teacher, and show him or her concrete examples of the types of fills you'd like to learn. Tear them apart, and learn what sort of practice will enable you to not only play those particular fills, but also to create your own, similar fills. Don't sign up for lessons with a locally renown jazz guy if what you want is Virgil Donati fills. Having specific goals like this is good; it tells the teacher exactly what your expectations are. If a teacher can't or won't figure out these monster fills for you, move on to someone who will.

If a discussion is ever about improvement, then it always ends with "take lessons". A forum is only going to get you so far.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 11-17-2015, 06:05 PM
mikel mikel is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Midlands. England.
Posts: 2,266
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duck Tape View Post
Well if I think about it, one major roadblock is if I don't have the ideal live setup, it's always different from my home setup in that I can't have my rack toms in the same spot because I am not using a rack and I don't have a tom mount fitted to any bass drums (I still need screws to fit my tama tom mount onto the kick). I have been mounting 2 rack toms from a stand but I can never seem to get them in a good spot.

And I guess to a degree my mind goes blank on stage when it comes to anything like a big fill. Creativity is definitely stifled. I think someone said I should keep an idea of something I intend to do in my mind and use it when the time is right. I agree with that. Thanks to those who answered the question I asked.
Thats the whole crux of the matter, right there. I realised long ago that to practice really well,and make the muscle memory stick, I had to have my e-kit at home set up exactly like my acoustic kit.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 11-17-2015, 06:36 PM
opentune's Avatar
opentune opentune is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 6,213
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

Back to the tried/true saying on here : "if you don't feel it don't play it' (I may have paraphrased wrong). If you are playing along and 'thinking' hey I've been playing simple for 12 bars now so let's.... {insert blushda here} it might come off just as that. Not smooth and piecemeal.

You sound like you play out lots, perhaps you could try awhile playing where you consciously embellish, fill or complicate your drumming and see how that goes. It sounds like you have the chops for it, and your band wants that. You can decide if it is really 'you'.
__________________
Louis
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 11-17-2015, 06:42 PM
Dr_Watso's Avatar
Dr_Watso Dr_Watso is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6,756
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikel View Post
Thats the whole crux of the matter, right there. I realised long ago that to practice really well,and make the muscle memory stick, I had to have my e-kit at home set up exactly like my acoustic kit.
Don't tie your skills to a specific setup or set of gear. It's extremely limiting and makes people turn into whiny brats when they're expected to gig with a house kit. Focus on music, rhythms, patterns... Not being able to pull off the same fills as you do at home because the setup is the same. Wrong focus. Focus on music and don't let differences in the instrument kill your groove.
__________________
"Overthinking is at the very core of our mission here." -Uncle Larry
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 11-17-2015, 09:20 PM
River19's Avatar
River19 River19 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 219
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

As I read through this thread a few thoughts occurred to me.......

The whole "Practice harder elements than required for your live gigs"......makes the most sense in the world. It plays out in other areas of life as well.....my wife competes in equestrian events (dressage....long story) anywho, she trains at a level above what she competes at.....for the same reason we should practice stuff that well, needs practice and challenges us.

The whole physical set-up thing......I have found that guys either are constantly using different setups and they become hyper aware of where and what they are "hitting" and are very flexible in what they play (physical setup-wise) or you have guys that always use the same setup and muscle memory is built up over time....but put them on someone else's kit and they are a fish out of water. By playing the same set-up we are also creating a bit of a rut for ourselves....and I am as guilty as anyone. Been playing the same setup for 20+ years.

Recently I have found that dropping down to a simple setup makes me try things I wouldn't have before on my full kit.
__________________
Know a little about a lot, and a lot about a little
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 11-18-2015, 12:26 AM
larryace's Avatar
larryace larryace is offline
"Uncle Larry"
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In beautiful Bucks County, PA
Posts: 21,249
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

I guess for some people it's better to force the issue but for me I just wait for it to come out by itself.

Like when you say your mind goes blank...I hear a few things.

A. You're not in the zone
B. You're not feeling the fill
C. You sound like you are at a point of unsuredness when you think you should fill but can't, which can't be good for the feel of the time, a guess.

Apologies if I'm off, just calling them like I see them.

Trying to think ahead when you can incorporate a practice lick into a song may work for some, but it's a recipe for disaster for me. It will come out when it's ingrained enough in my muscle memory that I don't have to think about it. And then only if I feel it.
__________________
Levis/Hanes/Timberlands/Custom made socks
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 11-18-2015, 12:44 AM
Anon La Ply's Avatar
Anon La Ply Anon La Ply is offline
Renegade
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cyberspace
Posts: 5,512
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

A lot of practice is about having enough headroom to easily play what's required. It can peeve other band members if you disrupt the flow too often, unless they also like to stretch out.

Risk taking is great fun and IMO makes music more exciting. I find it dull to watch seasoned pros nonchalantly pulling off their well practiced chops without adding any edge to the music. However, most audiences today prefer clinical competence to passionate risk taking, unfortunately.
__________________
Soundcloud
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 11-18-2015, 01:08 AM
GetAgrippa's Avatar
GetAgrippa GetAgrippa is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: U.S.
Posts: 3,206
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

Chops, groove, technique. I get it-just don't practice it. I started "drumming" at 8 so I see my success is like a bell curve. Playing rock n roll I ascended the curve working on technique and power, then over time I lost interest (also breaking a limb here and there screws up your technique although breaking my right hand turned out to be a good thing) so my "drumming" decreased descended down the curve, however my attitude changed and I quit calling myself a "drummer" to I'm a percussionist who sits behind a drum kit. I don't care for tricks, quit worrying about technique, not interested in being the focus to watch-just how it sounds and "fits" with the music, keep the pulse, keep the groove, keep the band together but maybe add some flavor a bit-make the band and song "sound better"-not so much stand out but fit in. My days of flailing and doing things properly has turned to how can I cheat and get this sound more ergonomically -eh I've gotten lazy.But I'm not trying to be a professional "drummer" so I appreciate the need for all I don't do. And I'm not putting down those who fervently adhere to their belief in technique, chops or groove-and I'm sure I could be schooled on the benefits and assets of all. I know I'm not a good drummer but hey I'm a hell of a "percussionist" LOL. The main caveat is my philosophy could be wrong-which admittedly most of time I am.
__________________
"I roll to the tune of a different drummer ;) "

Last edited by GetAgrippa; 11-18-2015 at 02:24 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 11-18-2015, 02:45 AM
Mikedrums78 Mikedrums78 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 196
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

I know what you mean DT when you say your playing is different from practice room to live setting. I think one of the biggest factors is environment. In the practice room, you can screw up, stop, rewind, try again, with no negative impact. Lol, try that on stage..
Of course recreating a live environment in the practice room could be difficult, but one thing I`ve personally found helps is video taping my sessions, and trying to play songs all the way through without stopping. I find that I get some of the same “pressure” from taping that I do when I play live in front of people. Plus, I can watch and listen back to see if what I think I sound like in my head is really matching up with what I am actually playing.
I also think that guy was right. You kind of need to just go for it on stage. I say that, but man I have a helluva time trying to do that myself! I second guess myself and end up shying away from trying that new sticking or fill i`ve been working on.

For me, I think it`s mostly mental and how the environment of live vs practice room changes my mentality and playing.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 11-18-2015, 10:57 PM
drum4fun27302 drum4fun27302 is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,388
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

It's mostly mental , and the big part of it is confidence.
At the next rehearsal , tell them that you will try to go for it and have them give you some feedback . Go from that and see if you can get used to it !!

And remember , all the flashy/ linear drummers you see on YouTube and other places started as "non flashy" drummers. If they can do it, so can you :)
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 11-19-2015, 12:37 AM
MikeM's Avatar
MikeM MikeM is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 5,438
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Risk taking is great fun and IMO makes music more exciting. I find it dull to watch seasoned pros nonchalantly pulling off their well practiced chops without adding any edge to the music. However, most audiences today prefer clinical competence to passionate risk taking, unfortunately.
This resonates hard with me.

Yeah, you can play it safe and stay focused on transparency, and you can take all the sticking combinations and canned licks you've worked out in the practice room and find a way to shoehorn them in, but that's not really what this is about.

I've seen you play on your vids (you're a fine player, btw) and IMO, you already have more than enough "chops", so I'm not seeing that finding transcriptions of other cats' mojo is gonna be the ticket. Sure, you'll learn more stuff by doing that, but what I'm getting from your posts here is that you need to unleash some FIRE. Like kick 'em in the teeth, full-on mini explosions of hellfire and brimstone.

Take a guy like Keith Moon for example - you're already miles beyond where he ever was from a practiced technical perspective, so what do you think Elvin Jones saw in him that he thought was so special?

My take is that Moon was able to open himself up all the way (unable to contain himself is more like it) and riding the music in a way that's similar to how a surfer rides a wave. It's all in reading the lay of the land, and trusting your intuition and gut sense to what the possibilities are and what goes where. Really, it's what all the great jazz drummers have always done, and in that key respect, Keith Moon functioned more like a jazz drummer than a rock drummer.

I've always admired jazz from a distance (generally not a huge fan of the soundscapes, though), but have been hugely influenced by the way the drummers comp, drop bombs, setup horn kicks, and run phrases over the bar line. This is just what they're feeling in the moment - that composition on the fly element - but if you roll that way often enough it becomes second nature.

For someone slightly more contemporary, I've always had a great time listening to Dave Weckl, not just for his amazing abilities, but for his willingness to go 'Keith Moon' so often. To me that's where he really shines, and while I don't usually stop to deconstruct his many amazing fills (tho some I do), there are loads that I can air drum along to that are almost passable. But for me, deconstructing them isn't the point; it's about absorbing that reckless attitude, admiring the awesomeness, and getting inspired to roll that way. When I fake my way through Weckl-inspired fills dumbed down enough for me, I end up with something that even he might not recognize.

When I get on my kit, either by myself, at band practice, or on stage, these inspirations and attitudes have a way of coming to the surface without me having to think about it much. When it's in the zone, it's almost transcendental.

FWIW, I have never had any interest in stick twirls or Vaudvillian show-biz elements. Whatever floats yer boat, I guess, but that's not my scene.

My measly $0.02 would be to ditch your formal practice routine. Not forever, but take a long hiatus (at least radically de-emphasize it) and practice going for broke in as many musical ways as you can conceive. The only way I know of to acquire fluency in any language (in this case, freestyle high-risk fills) is total immersion. So grab a bucket of peyote and go spend a few years wandering the proverbial desert.

tl;dr

Stop thinking about the technical side of everything you've learned to this point. Now go play some damn music and burn it down while you're at it!

If you do it right, that one cheeky grin from your bandmate will morph it's way into spontaneous laughter and amazement from all your appreciative bandmates, the audience, and with some good cheer, you as well.
__________________
My kit: It's not just good, it's good enough.

My Band

Last edited by MikeM; 11-19-2015 at 12:56 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 11-19-2015, 04:02 AM
MikeM's Avatar
MikeM MikeM is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 5,438
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

I just wanted to add that playing cool fills (and playing free-style) is a skill just like any other, and takes some time to develop.

As the OP has seen, some players actually want that from a drummer, and IMO, it's part of being a well-rounded player.

If you or your particular gig prefers fewer fills and more minimalism, then that's what you do, but the choice to be a groove or pocket player should be just that - a choice.

If it's because you can't or because you haven't found your voice with the skills you already have, then that's something you should add to your list of things to work on.

Very few bands or gigs want total abstinence, IME, so they should count for something however often you use them.
__________________
My kit: It's not just good, it's good enough.

My Band
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 11-19-2015, 06:47 AM
Mouse Mouse is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 69
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

Totally agree, just play heaps with and whatever you have under your belt wil or won't come out naturally. I think of myself as a solid player, try to not overplay and no frills. Once was told tham i'm quite a technical player. Never thought that but that could be my pipe band upbringing coming through in my playing.
Sure you can over think this,just get out and play.

I recommend Kenny Werner's " Effortless Mastery".


Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
This resonates hard with me.

Yeah, you can play it safe and stay focused on transparency, and you can take all the sticking combinations and canned licks you've worked out in the practice room and find a way to shoehorn them in, but that's not really what this is about.

I've seen you play on your vids (you're a fine player, btw) and IMO, you already have more than enough "chops", so I'm not seeing that finding transcriptions of other cats' mojo is gonna be the ticket. Sure, you'll learn more stuff by doing that, but what I'm getting from your posts here is that you need to unleash some FIRE. Like kick 'em in the teeth, full-on mini explosions of hellfire and brimstone.

Take a guy like Keith Moon for example - you're already miles beyond where he ever was from a practiced technical perspective, so what do you think Elvin Jones saw in him that he thought was so special?

My take is that Moon was able to open himself up all the way (unable to contain himself is more like it) and riding the music in a way that's similar to how a surfer rides a wave. It's all in reading the lay of the land, and trusting your intuition and gut sense to what the possibilities are and what goes where. Really, it's what all the great jazz drummers have always done, and in that key respect, Keith Moon functioned more like a jazz drummer than a rock drummer.

I've always admired jazz from a distance (generally not a huge fan of the soundscapes, though), but have been hugely influenced by the way the drummers comp, drop bombs, setup horn kicks, and run phrases over the bar line. This is just what they're feeling in the moment - that composition on the fly element - but if you roll that way often enough it becomes second nature.

For someone slightly more contemporary, I've always had a great time listening to Dave Weckl, not just for his amazing abilities, but for his willingness to go 'Keith Moon' so often. To me that's where he really shines, and while I don't usually stop to deconstruct his many amazing fills (tho some I do), there are loads that I can air drum along to that are almost passable. But for me, deconstructing them isn't the point; it's about absorbing that reckless attitude, admiring the awesomeness, and getting inspired to roll that way. When I fake my way through Weckl-inspired fills dumbed down enough for me, I end up with something that even he might not recognize.

When I get on my kit, either by myself, at band practice, or on stage, these inspirations and attitudes have a way of coming to the surface without me having to think about it much. When it's in the zone, it's almost transcendental.

FWIW, I have never had any interest in stick twirls or Vaudvillian show-biz elements. Whatever floats yer boat, I guess, but that's not my scene.

My measly $0.02 would be to ditch your formal practice routine. Not forever, but take a long hiatus (at least radically de-emphasize it) and practice going for broke in as many musical ways as you can conceive. The only way I know of to acquire fluency in any language (in this case, freestyle high-risk fills) is total immersion. So grab a bucket of peyote and go spend a few years wandering the proverbial desert.

tl;dr

Stop thinking about the technical side of everything you've learned to this point. Now go play some damn music and burn it down while you're at it!

If you do it right, that one cheeky grin from your bandmate will morph it's way into spontaneous laughter and amazement from all your appreciative bandmates, the audience, and with some good cheer, you as well.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 11-19-2015, 08:41 PM
Numberless's Avatar
Numberless Numberless is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Puerto Rico
Posts: 1,528
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

A lot of this also depends on how much you trust your bandmates, it's way more easier letting go and taking risks when you know your bandmates have your back.
__________________
you inspire the ugliest things
drum vids-->http://www.youtube.com/user/Lastdragonrider88
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 11-20-2015, 05:19 AM
Pocket-full-of-gold's Avatar
Pocket-full-of-gold Pocket-full-of-gold is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia.
Posts: 11,360
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

Mike, your posts just become more and more insightful, sensible and wise every year I sit here and read them!
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 11-20-2015, 07:32 PM
MikeM's Avatar
MikeM MikeM is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 5,438
Default Re: Getting your chops out of the practice room and onto the stage

Thanks a lot Jules!

Sometimes it's as much fun banging out long winded thread-killing posts as it is banging out room-clearing drum parts. Haha

But mostly it's just me sitting at work trying to avoid getting any work done. I almost never post at home.

As Road Bull said recently - anything worth doing is worth over-doing!
__________________
My kit: It's not just good, it's good enough.

My Band
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com