Mike Portnoy

tymile said:
and, as stu strib said earlier, the fact that tool came out so much later than drea, theater (and three to four years is a lot of time) can so act as proof that dream theater did not copy them. when an already big band hears this up and coming band's brand new debut cd, rarely will they go try and copy it.

It happens, regularly. I cited several examples in my reply to Stu. It is less common with bands like, say, The White Stripes. Mostly because they form because they want to play a certain style of music, and they're not that open to change. However in jazz and progressive genres it's extremely common. Yes changed their style in the 80s to align more with current musical trends started by other bands. So did King Crimson. This is also true of most of the virtuoso shred guitarists that I'm sure Petrucci is a fan of, too. And Frank Zappa, who Portnoy is a big fan of.

what do you think, mike portnoy and john petrucci were sitting around one day, listening to the brand new tool album, and mike goes, "hey! these tool kids are pretty good. lets blatantly copy them because we only have an unsurpassed amount of talent and have come up with plenty of completely original material ourselves. hell, we have another decade at least worth of original material, and we can outplay most bands around. so, we MUST COPY TOOL."

No, I think they were jamming in a practice room one day, maybe they had a little riff on 46&2 and some interesting melodies developed over the top of it. They had a chat about it and decided that they didn't have a problem with the similarity. Or that they were looking for a chorus for a song and somebody said "Hey, what we need here is a staccato feel like on By Demons Be Driven" and they busted one out quickly, liked it and wrote it down. Maybe later they noticed how remarkably similar that section was, but I reckon they either consider it a homage or just liked it enough to make the borrowing justified.

I've been in bands that have done this with things. It's not neccesarily a bad thing, indeed it can actually be pretty awesome if you do it with something from outside your genre. There's a bit of Fredrik Thordendal's "Sol Niger Within" where one of the riffs is a dead ringer rhythmically for the head melody of "Ravayah" by John Zorn. Not a rhythm I've heard anywhere else, personally, and there's other parts of the Thordendal album that appear quite Zorn influenced. Could be accidental, but it's cool even if it's deliberate because one song is an avant-garde klezmer/jazz piece and the other is progressive death metal. Mixing and quoting is perfectly acceptable, if done well.

I just don't like the way that DT borrow pieces from bands in a similar genre and use them with similar inflections, on the same instruments, in similar places in their songs. That just strikes me as a bridge too far. There's paying homage, there's putting your own spin on things and then there's the kind of stuff that DT do all over the place.

But to deny that they're borrowing sections of music at all? Come off it mate. Everybody does it. Particularly muso people who play a lot of solos - it's called "quoting". The difference is, most people try to modify things enough that it's not immediately obvious if you're familiar with the source. It took me a while to peg the swiped riff from Test For Echo by Rush in the intro to Lateralus by Tool for a couple of reasons:

1) Swung rather than straight.
2) The tone is different
3) The tempo is a bit different.
4) The purpose in the song is very different (intro, rather than bridge).

That's still a pretty blatent bit of borrowing, but DT don't seem to want to obfuscate even that far.

sorry, thats not the way it works. from the sounds of it, tool takes an amazing amount of inluence and idea from dream theater.

Now that I doubt.

Ok fact time.

Fact: If you read interviews, Portnoy has repeatedly cited Tool as an influence. Ditto Pantera.

Fact: If you read interviews, not one member of Tool even describes a passing enjoyment of Dream Theater. In fact, there's numerous references out of Adam Jones to hating technical guitar virtuosos, which would suggest that he's not much of a fan. Danny Carey has listed a bunch of contemporary drummers of whom he's a fan, including guys like Sim Cain and Fish (of Fishbone fame). Portnoy isn't on the list.

Fact: After Tool released Aenima, Dream Theater released two songs which use near identical sounding sections from 46&2 (see MP3) below. I have heard no other songs written prior to the Tool song which have anything like as close a resemblance.

Fact: Most other technical bands do not see the same "Accidental" occurrance of similar phrases from other bands in the same genre. See: Fredrik Thordendal. His stuff sounds like him. Ditto Opeth. Ditto Death. Ditto Strapping Young Lad. Dream Theater's stuff sounds like other people, regularly. For crying out loud, there's a song on "Six degrees" which is a dead ringer for a very well-known Peter Gabriel song. I'll give you five points if you can name both songs.

If you can't see a pattern here then I'd suggest it's because you're blinded by admiration rather than because of the absence of one.
 
in response to dt portnoy - i know that its perfectly legal to blatantly rip off another band, but its really lame. it shows no taste and says you cant think of ideas for yourself. covers are one thing, but passing off someone elses musical ideas as your own is just really low. thats why this subject is so touchy and heated.

finnighans - first things first, i admire how youre so knowledgeable about every subject that has been mentioned in this conversation. i think you know a rediculous amount about music and bands, and it pays off.

but, as dt portnoy said before, it is a matter of opinion. i dont think theres any way to know for sure which band copied which, or which band insipred which part of what song. think it could be difficult for the members of each band to answer that question before. dt portnoy said earlier that, possibly, a band could be inspired by another, and therefore could end up playing their styles subconsciously, and end up with something near the same end result.

for instance... and the greatest instance i know of this.

symphony x blatantly copies dream theater. its rediculous. the song "pharoah" by symphony x has a bass solo while all the other instrumentalists are playing a weird synchronized stacatto melody. this is EXACTLY like the breakdown in metropolis pt. 1. also, symphony x has copied song names, and even musical structural ideas, like you mentioned before.

now, the reason i used this as an instance, is because, theres no way to tell wether the reason so many things sound so similar is because they ripped the idea off or they were so heavily inspired that many of the ideas in their head came out sounding like their insiration. although they all say that dream theater is one of their biggest inspirations, it is still uncertain wether it was blatantly copied, or just subconcious. however i do feel that similarity in that much quantity and of that degree cant be completely unintentional.

the same goes for dream theater and tool. although dream theater came first, it is not completely unreasonable to feel that maybe dream theater may have copied ideas from tool. however, it is a matter of opinion when it comes to th e question inspiration vs. the stealing of ideas.

theres no real way to be sure.
 
Back on to the subject of bands ripping off other bands i recently read quote by Buddy Rich ( I think) well anyways it said
"The best musicians are thieves who don't get caught"
 
OK, this is getting rediculous. First of all, this post is not meant to be a bashing post, but I can't gurantee it won't turn into one.

OK, here we go:
First, if "theres no real way to be sure," then why don't you give it a rest? You can hate DT all you want, that's fine by me. But please save it for a DT bashing thread or something, not this thread which is supposed to be for positive input.

Second, even if DT does copy people, they are still one of the most original bands I have ever heard.

Third, the only bashing here is not by CarterB. Right now, it's by all of us (yes, me too). I just don't see how you can come into this thread and profess about how (and I quote) "lame" DT is and not consider it bashing.

Next, "there's putting your own spin on things and then there's the kind of stuff that DT do all over the place." I really think "all over the place" is going too far.

Lastly, I can't get over how much research and effort you put into your DT bashing. I simply must give you applause. It's always been my dream to become a loser with nothing better to do than rip on bands.
(OK, that was harsh, but my point is, you have your opinion. Why do feel the need to try to change other's. You've made your point, and no opinions have been changed. Put a sock in it.)
 
DTportnoyDT said:
Lastly, I can't get over how much research and effort you put into your DT bashing. I simply must give you applause. It's always been my dream to become a loser with nothing better to do than rip on bands.
(OK, that was harsh, but my point is, you have your opinion. Why do feel the need to try to change other's. You've made your point, and no opinions have been changed. Put a sock in it.)

Eh, I don't need to research - it comes knocking. I teach drums, and if you teach drums you'll learn a lot of things from your students:

1) Travis barker is, like, totally the best drummer on the planet.
2) No, Joey Jordison is.
3) No, it's Mike Portnoy.

As such I've heard a fair bit of all three. Oh, Danny Carey goes on the list too, but I actually like Tool. Anyway, back to the list above. I've owned albums with all of them on, because I have people who pay me who want to know more about what these guys are doing. It's hard to teach something you don't know about, so I listen, learn and work out how to teach it back to people.

Portnoy is, BTW, a very capable drummer. I won't dispute that. But that's not the issue, so I don't really feel there's any major bashing going on here.

Along the way I've run into a whole lot of things that sound, to my ears, exactly like other pieces of music released before the songs in question. I don't really like that. To me, music is like writing. If you write an article that IS another person's article (sell somebody elses work as your own) then you get sued for copyright infringement. If you take somebody elses article and generally re-write it in your own words while clipping the odd paragraph here and there out and making minor changes you get into trouble for plagiarism, which is not the same but still seriously frowned upon.

But if you read an article by somebody else, reflect on it, do some more research and then write a piece on the same subject? No problem. Happens every day. So I don't have a problem with reworking, extending or being inspired by another person's work, but I do feel that sometimes DT do cross the plagiarism line. Only just. But still.

And ultimately, where's the problem in disagreement in a discussion? We could have a thread where everybody just shows up and says "Hey, what about that Portnoy guy, eh? Awesome" and then goes away, or we could have some conflict but actually have a conversation on the subject. As long as everybody stays at least moderately civil we should be fine. I did get the claws out a bit down the thread, but you'll note they're away now and I'm doing my best to argue from an informed position rather than just saying "DT SUX HA!".
 
I must say that you make some very good points here, finn. I agree that in writing and such, plagiarism is not welcomed, but this isn't writing. Sure, you're writing music, but that's way different than writing a book or newspaper article. Everybody takes influence from someone somewhere along the way, and that usually means that you are going to use some rhythms from your idols. Even if you fully intend to borrow the rhythms, I don't consider that to be a bad thing. The quote of Buddy above couldn't be more true, in my eyes.

As an example, look at Metallica. They are one of the founders of Metal as we know it today. They're highly origional and highly respected (by many people, but they have their enimies), and they made an entire 2-CD album consisting of nothing but other people's work. Using someone's idea is simply a way of showing respect and showing that you like that particular idea. If someone used my idea, I would take that as a great compliment.

And even if DT does copy heavily, they have many more songs and ideas that were all their own.
 
now, as is probably already well known, i am a huge DT fan. and even more so for mike portnoy. but i need to stop a second to reflect because of what dt portnoy said.

naturally as a dt fan, im on your side. it seems me and dt portnoy are allies in this conversation. but i disagree with his second latest post.

as you well know, ive havent been bashing at all, and ive just been defending DT and having one hell of a debate with finn.

i started out against finn because he seemed so pitted against mike portnoy and dt and had so many bad things to say about them. i started out way against finn. but ive learned that he knows what hes talking about... its his job. as ive said before.... he knows his stuff.

that said....
"Lastly, I can't get over how much research and effort you put into your DT bashing. I simply must give you applause. It's always been my dream to become a loser with nothing better to do than rip on bands."
i dont think that finn is "bashing." hes using his vast knowledge (as sarcastic as that sounds) to bring up points. as much as i disagree with the points he brings up, i still very much respect him and the way hes so educated on the subject. any point he brings up has enough evidence that it can be justified... and its not some supid unjustified statement, like.... OMGOMG PORTNOY SUXZZz LOL!!2111!!1 he obviously knows way more than his share about music. and that by no means makes him a "loser with nothing better to do than rip on bands"

but dont worry dt portnoy: im still on your side.

me and dt portnoy still think mike portnoy and dream theater are completely original and own tool by far.

i think i can speak for the both of us when i say that in our opinion (and thousands others) dream theater is one of the most original and talented bands of all time. and theres been no opinion changing here. dream theater still owns.
 
Yeah, the whole "loser with nothing better to do..." was going overboard. Finn, as I have said, does make some very good points, and is very highly educated on the matter. But I still don't get why we are still going on about this. I could argue my case forever (sure, I'd end up losing), and no matter what I said, I would never change anyone's mind. The same goes for arguing against me, my opinion will never change. We've all made our points, and I know what finn is saying, I just don't agree with him, and I don't think that opinion will ever change.

P.S. Sorry again for the loser comment. That was a bit harsh.
 
Well now that I caught back up, I'd like to reiterate my main point; Dream Theater came first and there really isn't anything like them. Yeah I know the 80s had King Crimson and Rush and others, but Dream Theater is like the next generation of Proggers after the 70s and 80s stuff. Tool is a watered down, more radio friendly version, so what? But saying Tool is the icon and Dream Theater takes all their cues from Tool is silly.

Dream Theater was formed in 1985. Tool was formed in 1990. Yeah its only 5 years, but those 5 years are some of the most drastic changes in music during my lifetime (1969-present). For example, music in 1995 isn't that much different than 2005, but in 1985 it was WAAAAAAY different than in 1990. The gap is even bigger if you take into consideration their respective first releases. Dream Theater's first major project was in 1986 and Tool's was in 1993. That qualifies as different generations of musicians in my book.

The point is Dream Theater and Tool come from two different eras.

Finn doesn't like DT and loves Tool. I don't really care for either, but at least I can tell which of the bands grew up watching the other band (hint, the answer is Tool).

Yes, I'm talking symantics here. Yes Portnoy tips his hat to Tool and Pantera. Somehow I think that is more of Portnoy's effort to be humble than any music-worshiping.

I'll say it again...that type of music has a finite amount of cliches and sounds, so of course there are going to be lots of similar riffs, blatant ripoffs (hey, if it works), and so on.

I would bet that 50s hard boppers all had the same arguments, "quoting" as Finn called it. I wonder if Dexter Gordon was ever considered a rip off of Coltrane?
 
for all you people who dont like portnoy yea you can say you dont like him because of his music but dont even try to rip on his drum playing. he is an incredible drum player and if you think you can do it then why arent you famous already

and to answer the question for some insane drum playing you have got to listen to led zepplin(bonham) Rush(Peart) and slipknot (Jordison) and just watch buddy rich and denis chambers play theyre amazing..
 
Re: Mike Pourtnoy

DrummerDad said:
I dont experiment much with music. The tastes of most are weird to me. Are there any other drummers, who can actually play like him? Im talking about the stuff where his feet are playing 3-4 time, and he cymbal crashes on 4-4 time, or where he plays in a 4-4 time while the band plays in a 3-4 or 6-8. His timing is superb if you ask me. And he's a triple threat. Clean, Fast, and Technical. I know Rush has played weird time sigs before, but its like these guys could care less about a time sig. If the words require a 5-8 in the first measure and a 3-4 or 7-8 in the next, so be it.I think its borderline genious. Any one else play like that, if so who?

DrummerDad has a point. Danny Carey may be able to do what Portnoy does, but Portnoy is one of the first of his kind. Peart layed down some of this style in the 80's with Rush, but Portnoy picks up from there. Images and Words has some of the best drumming I've ever heard. Portnoy's Polyrhythms and Hemiolas are unparalleled in his genre. Tool is not as progressive ; Danny Carey's drumming fits more into the alternative metal of Tool, not progressive. Carey is still a very good drummer, no doubt, but I firmly believe Portnoy is better.
 
Re: Mike Pourtnoy

Stu_Strib said:
I've never really gotten Pornoy. Its probably more a 'taste' issue with me. Also, as a fusion purist, I don't really get into the rockprogification (my word) of fusion. In otherwords, bands that incorporate fusion elements and chops, but try to make it somehow more standard rock sounding, to appeal to a broader listening audience. For me, its all or nothing. Either you are a rock band or you are a fusion band. The inbetween stuff is just really neither of each.

His playing is intense and awesome there too, but its just not my gig.

See? Stu respects him, even though he doesn't like progressive rock (even though Dream Theater goes further into other styles). Portnoy deserves respect. Many people also neglec the fact the Portnoy is mainly self-taught (he did take a music theory class and attend Berkley College though)
- Marc
 
After reading some of these comments as well as some of the comments on Peart's Thread and Buddy Rich's thread, it's pretty shocking of what's going on. I expected everyone to be bowing down like these people were gods....people bashed on all three of them!

Yes, you may not like these drummers, but sometimes you should just respect them for their skill.
 
Re: Mike Pourtnoy

tambian89 said:
Portnoy's Polyrhythms and Hemiolas are unparalleled in his genre.

Dunno about that. I'll put Morgen Agren and Thomas Haake on the table for discussion here, both for their work with Fredrik Thordendal.

Also, I think people credit DT and Portnoy with far too much. Neither of them are doing anything seriously new in a big way. Neither are Tool, who also get too much credit for their mish-mash of the Melvins and King Crimson. Both Danny Carey and Mike Portnoy work off a lot of the same sources, Carey is an amalgamation of 70s prog and fusion drummers (Bill Bruford, Billy Cobham, Alan White etc) with more stripped-back rock and alt-rock players (John Bonham, Sim Cain from Rollins Band etc). Portnoy is more of a stylistic decendant of 80s prog drummers (Neil Peart, notably) and heavy metal players (Lars Ulrich, Vinnie Paul etc).

Naturally that leaves their styles sounding a bit different, but that doesn't make Portnoy's approach to progressive playing "better" or more serious. Personally I prefer Danny Carey's approach, I find it a lot more musical and a lot less obvious. But that's just me. I don't think there's any objective criteria you can point to that makes either of them better than the other.
 
While I love Mike Portnoy and consider him to be one of my favorites of all time, he ain't a complete drummer. He's awesome when it comes to DT's music, but nothing else. There is a video of him playing with other cats on some solid rock song and if you just listen and don't watch, that could be anyone else. It was way too stiff even for the Mighty Portnoy!
 
Wow, who would of thought Portnoy caused so much controversy...LOL, j/k

Anyway, I'm a HUGE Dream Theater fan, I think their music is fantastic. But Mike Portnoy as a drummer does not impress me too much. I do think he is a great guy, and I'm sure he has contributed so much to the song writing process of DT. If you really listen to DT you might understand what I mean when I say that probably, alot of the older stuff was written around some crazy drum beat that Mike threw together. For example "Under a glass moon" or "6:00 o'Clock" and this is why DT's music is so appealing to drummers and has influenced alot of new drummers. But, notice that after Jordan Rudess joined, people began saying that the music has been disappointing. Well I think DT's music is now not writing around Mike (I'm sure some still is) but around Jordan instead. I believe Jordan's writing has been more prevalent in the last 3 albums, and that has caused Mikes parts to be simpler more straight forward.

The reason I say this is because I currently play for a Dream Theater tribute band, and I've had to dissect the music, not because it is extremely difficult but because, well, I have to learn it. I have to know what is really going on. However 80% percent I can pick up just by listening to the CD in my car. But there is that 20% percent that I really have to listen to. And the difficult part about playing the songs and what is impressive about Portnoy, is not the parts themselves, but instead putting all those parts together in a song. I like DT as a whole, MP is a good drummer, but is great with DT. But as far as my influences go in the realm of ProgRock/FusionRock or whatever you want to label it, I much rather listen to Mike Mangini, Nick D'Virgilio of Spock's Beard, and I'm starting to like Jeremy Colson. I've only seen Jeremy with Steve Vai twice, but he impressed me.

And as far as DT copying Tool or whomever, I don't think is copying but rather throwing a bit of a tribute to the bands and music they are influenced by. And I don't think there is anything wrong with that, if asked, I'm positive the DT members will tell you "yes, so and so part is influenced by so and so band" etc...countless times they throw in the actual parts from other bands that influence them into a song. For example "Enter Sand Man" from Metallica. Yet here you guys are arguing about it, stop complaining and go practice!

EDIT: Oh and about the argument about his huge drum kit being a joke, too big, or whatever...well, I've got a small 5 piece fusion size set, and I use two roto toms instead of the octobans Portnoy uses. Two crashes, two hi-hats (left and right side of the kit) one china, two splash cymbals, and one set of wannabe Max Stax, (which is really a china kang cymbal on top of any old cheap splash), one tamborine, and one jam block for the song "Surrounded" And guess what, I can play all the parts with that.
 
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Robin said:
While I love Mike Portnoy and consider him to be one of my favorites of all time, he ain't a complete drummer. He's awesome when it comes to DT's music, but nothing else. There is a video of him playing with other cats on some solid rock song and if you just listen and don't watch, that could be anyone else. It was way too stiff even for the Mighty Portnoy!

Who gives a crap if he only fits DT's music? I got breaking news, people: HE'S IN DREAM THEATER! Therefore, his drumming need only satisfy DREAM THEATER'S style, no one else's. And if you ask me, he does a pretty damn good job when it comes to that.

And no kidding, tambian. Why do people have to start an argument about everything? Portnoy, Peart, Rich, the likes are great drummers with talent exceeding that of probably everyone on these forums. Why can't you leave the freakin' bashing out of these threads?

P.S. I don't give a crap if you want to jump on me and say "blah blah it's not bashing blah blah...." Even if it's not bashing by your accounts, it is still negative, and to me, that is bashing.


*crawls under blanket and prepares for a storm of raging protest surpassing the energy of a nuclear blast*

*comes back out from blanket and prepares to make his preparation note shorter*

*now trying to make the shortening n-

oh, forget it
 
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