Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores.

Except for some unexpected political discussion, I think everything else is just a rehashing what was initially said in the first few posts.

I would like to see some kind of a solution to the problem other than avoidance, or just going on the web. It is unfortunate that once in a while the musician needs to touch and hear the instrument or equipment they are about to purchase, so the stores have a function of sorts.

If the major manufactures understood this problem they may want to sponsor their own outlet stores. Like apple do their stores. But, then the customer would have to visit several stores to compare products between different manufactures. The outlet stores could show off the companies products. Perhaps many companies would do several products at their own outlet stores.

Evolving Machine

well if somebody here has several million to outfit an actual pro shop here with educated sales people and offer decent prices and carry a nice selection of stuff on a regular basis, well you would probably have a whole state worth of business...

there is your solution.
 
well if somebody here has several million to outfit an actual pro shop here with educated sales people and offer decent prices and carry a nice selection of stuff on a regular basis, well you would probably have a whole state worth of business...

there is your solution.
There are only a few drummers that are seriously seeking high end gear.
There are thousands of drummers seeking the lower end gear.
The stores simply cater to their customers.

Sales flow dictates what they stock and sell.
Department managers review national sales flow data and they stock their store accordingly.
They will stock a few high end products just to have some in the store.
They have a budget that limits the inventory that they can carry and also sales goals to meet.

The overhead of operating a store is very high.
The stores have no choice.

Bottom Line,
If the stores were swamped with people wanting to buy all kinds of expensive drum gear and all sorts of things like tension rods and hoops, etc. They would stock them.

Supply and Demand, Thats the first rule of economics.
The demand isn't there, so the supply isn't there.
 
Supply and Demand, Thats the first rule of economics.
The demand isn't there, so the supply isn't there.

But in GC's case, there is demand, and the supply isn't there. It's not just my experiences not finding what I need, I know a lot of people in the forums and in my drumming circle of friends and pros, who complain that they go into GC looking for something and can't find it.

It's not an issue that resulted from the recent economic downturn, this has been going on for years.

Bermuda
 
But in GC's case, there is demand, and the supply isn't there. It's not just my experiences not finding what I need, I know a lot of people in the forums and in my drumming circle of friends and pros, who complain that they go into GC looking for something and can't find it.

It's not an issue that resulted from the recent economic downturn, this has been going on for years.

Bermuda
If I want a snare throw, a cast hoop, or a lug for my vintage Gretsch kit, I don't go to GC or Sam Ash.
I look to a net store that specializes in this gear. I also look on eBay for used parts.

If I want calfskin heads, I go to a net store and I buy direct.

You, I, and discerning drummers know what we want and need. We also know where to get it.
 
There are only a few drummers that are seriously seeking high end gear.
There are thousands of drummers seeking the lower end gear.
The stores simply cater to their customers.

Sales flow dictates what they stock and sell.
Department managers review national sales flow data and they stock their store accordingly.
They will stock a few high end products just to have some in the store.
They have a budget that limits the inventory that they can carry and also sales goals to meet.

The overhead of operating a store is very high.
The stores have no choice.

Bottom Line,
If the stores were swamped with people wanting to buy all kinds of expensive drum gear and all sorts of things like tension rods and hoops, etc. They would stock them.

Supply and Demand, Thats the first rule of economics.
The demand isn't there, so the supply isn't there.

unfortunately you don't live anywhere near me. the demand IS here and it's not being fulfilled. we have 2 dedicated drum shops, thats all, they sell nothing more. one is so far away from any major metropolitan area it's not really an option for many people. we're talking an 8 hour drive from where the vast majority of people live in this state, it's actually closer to being in another state then this one. the other one has such a bad reputation that most musicians won't set foot in the door. we are left with 5 mom & pop shops that barely carry anything and only lower end stuff cuz they can't compete with gc and thats all they can afford to carry. 5 gc's in 30 minute drive from me, none carry a drum kit worth a crap. we're talking the lowest of the low here. i live 5 minutes from the biggest gc in the state, their drum department consists of 3 drum kits, a horizon, a forum and an accent, a mass of nick nacks scattered around the floor against the walls, a cymbal room that only has b8's, zht's and one little rack of used cymbals and mostly used b8's and zht's. your lucky to have a small selection of heads, last time i went to get heads for my snare i had to visit 3 different stores to get a genera dry and a 2 mil hazy, not cuz i had to have those 2 exact heads but becuase those were the only snare heads in all 3 stores.

you want anything higher then that you order it, period. i'm not saying we need a store to carry only top end stuff, lower end intermediate stuff would sell like crazy becuase nobody else here even stocks it. you had a stock of heads to where somebody could actually pick from 2 or 3 styles and enough sizes to outfit a standard 5 piece kit, maybe carry mid range cymbals, an xs20 or 2, maybe even an avedis here and there, a couple floor models of single pedals of various mid range pedals, hell i had to special order an iron cobra cuz "they don't stock higher end pedals". if the customers were treated decently and the prices were somewhat comptetitive to online stores i can garentee you would have more business then you could ever want.

gc is where preteen school kids go to get instruments they don't really want for school, then later can't sell on craigslist cuz it's too flooded with every other 8th grader trying to unload their crap. it is not where people who actually play for whatever reason go to shop for anything other then sticks and picks. we don't have a store that really caters to an actual musician and we desperetly need one.

some of you guys on here live next to amazing stores even if it is a few hours away. people ask for opinions and almost everybody says get your hands on them and play them before deciding, then i look around at the options i've been given to actually test drive any piece of equipment and laugh. where an i suppossed to test drive an axis pedal? iron cobras are too high end for here. where am i suppossed to go bang on bosphorus cymbals? i have a hard time even finding a b8 china. i guess i could swing by that one store to try out that new meridian birch jazz, oh wait thats too high end, they only carry the starter kits. god forbid i want a new half stack for my guitar, guess i could stack a few crate 2x12's on top of each other and pretend.

moral of the story, supply and demand is not the be all end all of the economic world. some companies choose to carry less and only the most "affordable" cuz they can turn stock quicker and their not out a ton of money of it doesn't sell, on to the next latest and greatest. it's a combination of many factors that play into a companies business model, economy, supply and demand, funding, profit, product turn around, shelf space, location, demographics, management, compatition, target cutomers, projected sales, past sales and the list goes on.

so yeah for my location and the people around here, yes that is the answer. give us a place to buy a pruduct we want at a decent price and we will infact.. buy.
 
Let's face it, The store that we want doesn't exist!
It never will!
It would be a Fantasy Land if it did exist.
Can you imagine going to a drum shop that only had top gear!
No idiots behind the counter!
No, New-bee's in the aisles taking up our space.

How does that old Steely Dan tune go?
Oh Yea, "What A Wonderful World It Would Be"
A store filled with only the best of the best!
 
If I want a snare throw, a cast hoop, or a lug for my vintage Gretsch kit, I don't go to GC or Sam Ash.
I look to a net store that specializes in this gear. I also look on eBay for used parts.

If I want calfskin heads, I go to a net store and I buy direct.

You, I, and discerning drummers know what we want and need. We also know where to get it.

Of course. I don't expect the box stores to have that kind of stuff.

What I'm talking about is not being able to find enough Gibraltar rods or nice wires or a pair of hoops or a 6.5x14 generic bag for the used snare I just picked up. Those aren't specialty or vintage or obscure items, they're stock items. And this wasn't a one-time occurrence, it's happened enough times that I eventually ordered a bunch of rods, washers, wires, and at least one set of hoops for 13 & 14" snares, in 8 & 10 lug configurations. Don't get me started on trying to find Holz rings there.

How silly and costly that I need to keep new parts on hand because I can't rely on Guitar Center to have them.

Then again, you should see my parts drawers/containers/boxes/cases. It's amazing I need to leave the house at all. :)

Bermuda
 
it would indeed be a great day to have a store that always had exactly what you needed and always had plenty of it, all the newest gear was readily available. sadly your right bob, that will probably never happen. i would probably be forever broke if such a store did exist. i hate relying on the internet, ebay and craigslist for everything. but in it's own way the internet is that store, now if they could come up with some futuristic virtual reality version that you can try things out, i would be satisfied with that...
 
I really think that the physical store as we know it will perish.
I think that advances in technology will make this possible.
We are standing at the threshold of this technology that will allow this to occur.

That is why we are so despondent at the moment.
We just have a glimpse of things to come.

The decline in the ability of retail stores to stock inventory will push technology to take things further.
It was just a little over a decade ago that the internet store consisted of just a written list of products that retail stores had to offer.
Now look at what we have!

This very web site was a dream just a few years ago!
Now look at it, and us, and where we are!
 
I really think that the physical store as we know it will perish.
I think that advances in technology will make this possible.
We are standing at the threshold of this technology that will allow this to occur.

That is why we are so despondent at the moment.
We just have a glimpse of things to come.

The decline in the ability of retail stores to stock inventory will push technology to take things further.
It was just a little over a decade ago that the internet store consisted of just a written list of products that retail stores had to offer.
Now look at what we have!

This very web site was a dream just a few years ago!
Now look at it, and us, and where we are!

As older methods fade away, new ones spring forth to take their place. We all gotta roll with it.

It's funny, I just saw an internet article on how film is making a come back for photographers. Talk about a pipe dream! For the hard core enthusiasts it will remain, but the fact is, everyone has gone digital many times over by now. Certain processes are just meant to slowly fade away as millions of people turn to the new thing.

But the question that was asked of me by a colleague (much older, btw) was, "would you really want to go back?"

If the stores never really had everything, with the internet, it confirms that they don't need everything in stock. In a way, by not keeping stock, there must be some middle man that is eliminated keeping the price a little more reasonable, eh?

Sorry to state the obvious.
 
I really think that the physical store as we know it will perish.
I think that advances in technology will make this possible.
We are standing at the threshold of this technology that will allow this to occur.

That is why we are so despondent at the moment.

I couldn't disagree more. Until the internet can provide instantly, a look, a touch, a feel and a listen it will only be a purchase portal. It relies on the brick and mortar stores to do all the work.
GC catered to the starving musician who was only looking for the best value (read here best price). A majority of musicians fell into the same mindset thinking that the best price is the best value. GC put a great many of independent music stores out of business is a false premise. Musicians put those independents out of business. I have no empathy for those who cry about GC. Those who are crying are just reaping the consequences of their own buying practices.
Done with rant.
 
Of course. I don't expect the box stores to have that kind of stuff.
Bermuda

The retail environment is so dicey now. Whatever industry there is a big box store. They choose not to carry all that stuff because they know that most purchasers want to buy instantly and will, generally, settle for what is available at the lowest cost.Hence, the limited selection. (best sellers).
The industry I work in is no different. The way we compete (very successfully) is to provide a bigger selection (most of which are not available at the box stores), better service (which the majority of box stores have little to none) and knowledgable sales staff ( absent at most big boxers) These variables cost more to have and this is passed on to the consumer. The consumer will pay for it if they see value in it, if they have built a relationship with my staff and trust that the product and service will perform as promised.
There are many places a consumer has to spend their money. Most won't buy the most expensive or the least expensive either. They will buy where they feel they will get the best value.
Except drummers. they are cheap ba$trds.
 
I couldn't disagree more. Until the internet can provide instantly, a look, a touch, a feel and a listen it will only be a purchase portal. It relies on the brick and mortar stores to do all the work.
GC catered to the starving musician who was only looking for the best value (read here best price). A majority of musicians fell into the same mindset thinking that the best price is the best value. GC put a great many of independent music stores out of business is a false premise. Musicians put those independents out of business. I have no empathy for those who cry about GC. Those who are crying are just reaping the consequences of their own buying practices.
Done with rant.

really? huh, i had no idea i didn't know the difference between value and price. so even though the music store i frequented on a regular basis, guys who i'm still friends with, went out of business becuase of gc. the second store i went to also went out of business becuase of them, now i'm stuck with them becuase they're the only game in town anymore, it just so happens to be my fault. awesome! i guess i'm reaping the consequences of my buying practices for not shopping there till there was no place left.

i suppose your also going to try to tell me they didn't buy out their competition cuz they were biting too much into their sales by educating the customers, or that it's the musicians fault for them miseducating customers just to move product out the door, or pushing off used gear as new, or promising return policies on used gear even though they knew in advance there was no chance of it, or claiming when a return was justified that the customer "broke" the item just to avoid giving back the money, or advertising these huge sales every weekend even though the price had not changed at all. yep those are all perfectly legit business practices adn gc holds no blame in anything. it's all the musicians...

i spent a lot of money in that store, and had good relations with some of the people there. but damned if i'll get screwed and ripped off and then accept blame for it too. nonexistant emapthy noted and easily done without.
 
As hit on above, my big gripe with these chain stores is the lack of knowledge behind the counter. With the internet, shoppers can research and become aware of new products often before the salespeople know it's available. It's comical that the local GC drum "expert" can tell you more about what is I-phone does than what he's selling. Of course, that's true everywhere. Don't get me started on car salesman!
 
I couldn't disagree more. Until the internet can provide instantly, a look, a touch, a feel and a listen it will only be a purchase portal. It relies on the brick and mortar stores to do all the work.

That's actually another very heated thread...

GC catered to the starving musician who was only looking for the best value (read here best price). A majority of musicians fell into the same mindset thinking that the best price is the best value. GC put a great many of independent music stores out of business is a false premise. Musicians put those independents out of business. I have no empathy for those who cry about GC. Those who are crying are just reaping the consequences of their own buying practices.

I don't think anyone is crying about GC, just pointing out some of GC's issues that they (GC) also lament about.

The idea that GC has "the best price" is just silly. Apart from the occasional loss-leaders and discontinued items, and standard 50% off some consumables, their everyday prices are quite average and even high. Perhaps some of that is just a strategy for customers who want to ask for a better price, and then GC throws them a 10% bone. Recently, there was a supposed policy where department managers checked competitors' prices on a daily basis, and would print new tags to show that they matched (or beat) the lowest price a customer might find elsewhere. But I never saw any evidence of that.

And I don't know which other musicians have put independent stores out of business, but but certainly hasn't been me. I make a number of trips to my local GC because of proximity, and visit Sam Ash for the same reason. But I make an equal or greater amount of trips to various other small stores and drum shops, where I make more frequent purchases because they have a better selection and typically, better prices.

BTW, I have an excellent grasp on the difference between price and value, and I never automatically equate them. I always opt for the best value.

And although I have enough endorsements that you'd think I never need to walk into a store at all, I manage to spend a lot of money over the counter. So the state of retail and how some stores operate is important to me. It pains me to see the small shops fail, and GC not pick up the slack in the process (which right now is a real financial burden.) Neither is good for the musician.

Bermuda
 
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I try to purchase from the local stores in my town because they are mom and pop type places not a national chain like GC. So if it costs me 5 bucks more I think its worth it. That being said I usually only talk to the owners because I can try to get them to lower the price on some stuff.

I second that. I pretty much shop at locally owned stores, a bit at the local GC if they have some gear I can't get anywhere else.

It is being a total douchebag to go into a store, try out the gear, then buy it from someone else online. Really, really bad and harmful to local businesses. Anyone who has a job can understand this.
 
I tried this earlier, but I guess I did not make my point well. Suppose, Pearl would have a store, that really did not sell anything directly, but just showed the products to the people. Perhaps they had the ability to direct you to an online store where you could make the purchases. As musicians we need to touch the product once in a while that we are about to purchase. In this store, Pearl would be able to show their new product line, show off their older products, have complete control over the training of their staff.

Pearl would benefit from the accurate advertisement of their products. The UPS/ FEDEX trucks are just a day away. Personally I need to hear and feel the snare drum before I make a purchase. I can not tell from other drummer’s description of the snare how I will like it. Yes there are some products that are easy to describe, but for the most part, I need to touch it.

I believe this is the type of thing many of you were talking about when you said the stores will eventually change. This is the same concept as what used to be Sears catalog stores. The supply in the store could be limited to just demo items or an occasional sale item.
 
really? huh, i had no idea i didn't know the difference between value and price.

Sorry, I wasn't pointing a finger at any individual.

so even though the music store i frequented on a regular basis, guys who i'm still friends with, went out of business becuase of gc.

Sorry for that. Please explain to me how GC put them out of business. Is it because an abundance of buyers quit shopping at the store you frequented?

the second store i went to also went out of business becuase of them

Doubly sorry there.

, now i'm stuck with them becuase they're the only game in town anymore, it just so happens to be my fault. awesome! i guess i'm reaping the consequences of my buying practices for not shopping there till there was no place left.

I think you are taking my rant way too personal. Not my intention.

i suppose your also going to try to tell me they didn't buy out their competition
Not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying GC paid these 2 stores to go out of business, sort of a business deal?


i spent a lot of money in that store, and had good relations with some of the people there. but damned if i'll get screwed and ripped off and then accept blame for it too. nonexistant emapthy noted and easily done without
.

Look at why you spent ' a lot of money' in that store and ask yourself why you did not spend it with your friends store (some friend you are;) That may be a reason your 2 stores closed down. These 2 stores can't even get their friends to buy there.

Listen I am not out to denigrate anyone. Maybe my language was too strong and poor choice of words (cry) Sorry for that.
Peace
 
I tried this earlier, but I guess I did not make my point well. Suppose, Pearl would have a store, that really did not sell anything directly, but just showed the products to the people. Perhaps they had the ability to direct you to an online store where you could make the purchases. As musicians we need to touch the product once in a while that we are about to purchase. In this store, Pearl would be able to show their new product line, show off their older products, have complete control over the training of their staff.

Pearl would benefit from the accurate advertisement of their products. The UPS/ FEDEX trucks are just a day away. Personally I need to hear and feel the snare drum before I make a purchase. I can not tell from other drummer’s description of the snare how I will like it. Yes there are some products that are easy to describe, but for the most part, I need to touch it.

I believe this is the type of thing many of you were talking about when you said the stores will eventually change. This is the same concept as what used to be Sears catalog stores. The supply in the store could be limited to just demo items or an occasional sale item.
This is exactly what I am talking about.
A store that only had demonstration merchandise.
A store that only had highly trained staff.
Of course, we would have to pay for this in the price of the products that we bought there.
Drum companies don't want to invest in this currently.
There simply aren't enough people buying drums and other musical instruments to warrant this.
Thats the problem, Apple can do this because there are many people that buy computers.
When you buy Apple you pay a high price for the product partially because of the store network that apple has.
There aren't enough people that buy Ludwig drums to justify having a Ludwig store, etc.
 
Suppose, Pearl would have a store, that really did not sell anything directly, but just showed the products to the people. Perhaps they had the ability to direct you to an online store where you could make the purchases. As musicians we need to touch the product once in a while that we are about to purchase. In this store, Pearl would be able to show their new product line, show off their older products, have complete control over the training of their staff.

An excellent idea, and they could even co-op with other non-competing companies (such as Sabian, Vic Firth, etc.)

The problem is of course, where do they set up such a showroom? How many would they have to set-up to accommodate enough people to make it worthwhile?

This is why there is a network of dealers, so that each company doesn't have to have a dedicated presence in every major market.

But I like the concept, and artists in the area could stop in and do demos, clinics, talk about the product. I'd be on board if Ludwig, Sabian, Evans or Vic Firth did that here in L.A.

Bermuda
 
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