I'm rubbish at playing ensemble figures with my band.help

paleto

Junior Member
those phrases that you play in unison with the band.keep forgetting when ,the stops,etc.whatever involves playing short phrases or effects with the whole band is a nightmare to me.Is there any advice to improve that skill?to me that is what defines a good drummer,the guy who has the memory to remember all the details in an arrangement.is it possible to develop that skill or am i just hopeless???
 
The only way to improve that is practice practice practice. If you're playing covers just play along to the song. If you are doing originals and you have recordings play along to those. If you don't have recordings write out the rythm that you are trying to play along with and practice that at home.
 
i'm amazed at how certain guys keep track of when they have to accent something or just support a whole melodic phrase in unison with the band ,particularly when they are kind of soloing or doing a drum break and suddenly they accent or stop at the same time the band do it ,I keep getting lost all the time.Is it a matter of counting?im just checking out these gospel drummers and they are masters at doing precisely that,in the middle of chaos and really busy playing they always know where they are ...i have that book you mention and i dont recall it addressing the issue,it just teaches you how to interpret the the road map .will reread it though.thank's guys
 
Well it's all about setting up so you can enter the figure smoothly, once you're at the actual figures, there's not much to do except play them, I don't think there's that much to it, you either memorize them or if you're a good reader, read them from the paper.
 
i'm amazed at how certain guys keep track of when they have to accent something or just support a whole melodic phrase in unison with the band ,particularly when they are kind of soloing or doing a drum break and suddenly they accent or stop at the same time the band do it ,I keep getting lost all the time.

The way to be able to do this is to practice to the point that you are no longer playing patterns but are actually in full control of what you are playing. This is manageable for the most of us when playing simple grooves and fills but as the complexity of the patterns increases it becomes increasingly difficult to freely improvise within them.

My advice for you would be (and this is as standard as you can get) is to find a teacher to help you with this. In the meantime you could try to keep things simple, to practice listening to the band and to play a lot. The more time you spend together with your band the better you will become at feeling the unisons.
 
One more piece of advice to add to the already good advice here.

Learn the parts that you have to play with to the point where you are able to sing them. If you are able to vocalize the parts it will mean that you have really internalized them. Once you have these parts internalized you will have a much easier time setting the parts up/playing with the band. In my experience, having trouble playing ensemble figures with the band usually stems from not knowing the figures.

My teacher taught me the following progression for learning rhythms:

Count-Memorize-Sing

Be able to count the band figures out loud so that you know exactly where they are in the measure. Once you know exactly where in the measure the figures fall then you can start the process of memorizing them bit by bit. Once you really have them memorized, you should be able to sing them. Don't worry if your singing voice is not beautiful, it doesn't matter. Try singing the parts while you are playing time beneath them. Finally, try playing some time and setting up/playing the figures while you sing them.

I am confident that if you follow this process it will really clarify the problem you are having, and help you overcome it.
 
Great answer haredrums - glad to see you around everywhere these days, you're doing great stuff over at your blog.

The key here is to listen listen listen, over and over again (a million times if need be) until the shots are burned into your memory and you can sing them like the chorus of your favorite Beatles tune. Once it's really a part of you, and not just something you're consciously trying to remember, you're on track to start experimenting with different voicings on the kit, or with connecting the figures with different fills.

Listening until you can sing it at any time of any day, that's the key of this to me.
 
Thank's guys,got the picture,i actually always suspected the singing thing would help.makes sense...and yes,the chart reading book does deal with ensemble figures...cheers!
 
You have to know how to read. First, you suss out the measures and the sections. Where things stop and start. Know your rhythms: a lot of arrangers write awful rhythms for suggestions. Be able to count your measures (if you can't, get back with a basic reading book, like Syncopation).

Also: you don't have to hit every hit. If you see something that confuses you, just play time through it, and get it next time.

Order of Imporance.

1. Figure out the form and sections and the right groove to play.
2. Dynamics.
3. Stops and Starts.
4. Fills
5. top-of-the staff figures
 
You mean riffs that are played together? Stop and go and knowing when the arraingments change, right? If so that takes practice with the band. Tape your rehearsals so you have some private practicing to do. If your working on original tunes then someone needs to give out some Ques as the the part comes, yeah its cheating but its good practice not to have anyone struggle. Brothers pick each other up when we fall and everyone will have some problems as you progress.
The thing your concerned with is feeling when these parts are coming and with that you need a little music education as to what 12 bars are annd the simple basic counts and timings that incompasses Pop music. I'll suggest a few lessons from a drum teacher who will get right to the point of helping. Explain your concerns and get down to it instead of trying to explain it over the net a drummer sitting at a kit along side you doing the same will tap into you much quicker.
Get ready for some horn section breaks and how to lead them into the breaks, thats fun stuff. Doc
 
Great answer haredrums - glad to see you around everywhere these days, you're doing great stuff over at your blog.

Agree.

Haredrums, I always enjoy your comments. As everyone said, it's about getting to know the song like the back of your hand so that you can sing the song to yourself from go to whoa (even if it's dum te dums).

While we have to know where stops and changes are, you'll want to think about the intended effect of the stop - not only a mechanistic notion of "three bars then stop". The mathematics is the starting point but the final aim is to hook into the intended effect / feeling. Often a stop will be a climax or a precursor to a climactic moment.

I love just chugging along with a rhythm so my challenge has always been trying to keep the pulse smooth when playing variations.

To that end it's really important to listen well - to the whole band sound, not just the drums - in those moments. It's always important, but especially critical when playing stops and transitions.
 
Hey Pollyanna,

Thanks, I really appreciate it! I always get a lot out of your comments as well. I think you have a great perspective on the drums, and you contribute a lot to the conversation at Drummerworld (I am sure everyone else here agrees)!

For example what you are pointing out here about the intended musical effect of a stop beyond just the mechanics is really excellent.
 
For example what you are pointing out here about the intended musical effect of a stop beyond just the mechanics is really excellent.

Thanks v much Hare. The heady approach wore thin with me. Once the basic count is sorted out it's so much easier to pick up and remember changes when you understand what those changes mean in the song ... unless it's some abstract thing where tricky changes are there for show like Dream Theater ... I have no idea how they remember those arrangements.
 
Well, I come from a different school of thought because I've never had a lesson and I never "count" measures. I've always felt that I could use some lessons. I do more like what the Doc was talking about. Learn more about song structure like verses and chorus and bridges. Rather than counting, I break the song up into verses, chorus's and bridges. You practice enough and you get a feel for how long the verse is, how long the chorus is, blah blah blah. I am also a songwriter so that kinda helps with that. If I have a problem with a particular area of the song, like the break after the second chorus right before it goes into the bridge, for instance, then that's where I need to focus because I got the rest of the song wired. Visualize that part even when you're away from your kit and listen to it over and over again until it is burned into your brain. Some songs I'm asked to play I've never played before, but for the fact that I've heard that song so much in the past that I only need to hear it once to get a feel for the bass/snare pattern, how are the HHs/ride being played, what pattern. Where was that break again? Oh yeah it was right after the bridge before he goes into the chorus. How many times does he hit that cymbal? Oh yeah, it was 5 times.
 
Hey Midnite Zephyr,

I think your approach is infinitely better/deeper then the counting measures approach. I think that counting only becomes really useful in very specific situations. For example, playing a song you haven't heard and all you have is a chart. Another example might be trying to figure out some particularly difficult rhythmic figure in a song. But when it comes to actually playing, I think counting should generally go out the window.
 
I just make sure i know the song and most of the time I improvise.. i hardly ever play the same song the same way twice
 
I should have mentioned that I'm a firm believer that everyone in the band make themselves learn how the singer is gonna sing the song. Some vocal styles like to lead the tempo other stay back and slightly "off" the tempo. All of that dictates approach, you can't be introing a chord change if the singer is still there, atleast most of the time hahahaha!!! Knowing how the voicings of the singer is gonna go is a huge help to the drummer. I was taught this from a singer who wanted her band to accompany her and wanted a clean tune were no one was stepping on each whether from her vocals, to the kick drum and the bass player staying off each other unless they were building something. I think I got good advise there especially because I'm a singer /drummer and the vocals come before the drums and every other instrument too. Music common sense has to be learned before talent levels or the playing may be great but the song stinks! HA! Doc
 
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