Need recording advice!

GCDrummer

Member
Hello everyone, thought I would reach out here for a bit of advice on how to get a better sound out of my kit.

I already have my suspicions on what is causing the problem, but I'll just lay out the situation as it stands.

In the studio, we are recording the drums, rhythm guitar and, bass guitar all in one take, but only the drums are mic'd, The guitars are running direct through amps.

The problem I'm running into is a lack of body on the snare and the toms. They're rather tinny, and aren't punchy like they ought to be. This is very uncharacteristic of them, because acoustically they are really great! I've got them tuned to what I'd call a medium to medium high tone, and they sound fine just on their own.

I'm running Coated Powerstroke 3's, and Coated Ambassadors on my toms top and bottom, (13",16") and a Vintage Ambassador on the snare.

The actual drums are 1966 Ludwigs, and a Gretsch round badge COB snare.

I'm thinking it's the actual mics on the drums - they're pretty lo-fi if you ask me, just some plastic clip ons, one piece.

Looking forward to hearing what you all have to say! :)
 
What are the "cheap clip-ons?" How does the room sound? With a 2 tom setup like that, I like to use Shure KSM32's top and bottom. Clip on anything is bad for recording IMO. You get too much stuff. How, in detail, do you have the drums miced? As in what mics, where are they, what preamps, etc.?
 
I tried finding the model of microphone that are being used on the drums, but I could not find the exact same type. I don't think they are made anymore. They're a set of Audix "drum mics", I'd say 200$ for the set. The room is nice and neutral, lots of foam mounted on the walls, everything sounds nice acoustically.

Unfortunately, the recording method we are able to use is a two track recording, which means every instrument/mic is mashed into Left and Right tracks before any separate mixing / eq is done. I wish I could post up a sound clip but I have none at this point. Basically, what I'm asking is how can get my drums to produce a more recording friendly sound?

Edit: In response to Drum-EI, I have the snare and toms close mic'd with the mics I mentioned, the kick with a mic from the same package (no problems with the kick, it sounds prime) and two overheads over the Snare / Hi Hat / LH crash cluster and the Floor tom / Ride / RH Crash cluster. We've also added a nice condenser mic right up front in the center at about chest height and that's brought out a really nice crisp sound to the cymbals, but not the body I was hoping from the drums.
 
The problem I'm running into is a lack of body on the snare and the toms. They're rather tinny, and aren't punchy like they ought to be. This is very uncharacteristic of them, because acoustically they are really great! I've got them tuned to what I'd call a medium to medium high tone, and they sound fine just on their own.

Despite proximity effect, a "small" sound is often the illness of todays close micing. Does it sound allright in the overheads / room mics? I often find it way better to have more bleed and therefore fuller sound from the drums.

Clip mics are by definition very close to the head. Try to raise them (maybe tape them to a stand for experiments)

If not possible try to angle the mics in a way that they point across the drum (more towards the drummer)

With the snare make sure that top and bottom mic don't cause cancellation in the mix (can sound exactly like you describe) . You will likely have to flip the phase on the bottom.

Alot of the "body" from the drums happens not directly on the top head but rather projects from the entire drum towards the audience. So experiment with various Overheads and room mic settings.

Good luck

Fabian
 
Depending on your definition of body. I usually hear that term tossed around to mean low end. If they're thin and lacking low end, seems like that would be the opposite of a proximity problem. Sounds to me more like a phase problem possibly. Especially if you're summing the mics to 2 tracks without being able to EQ. (how are you summing them? Mixer with no EQ?.) I would agree that 75% of a good drum sound (after you have a good player on a good kit tuned up nice) is the room tone. I use a lot of room mics in production, and that's where all the bigness and mid range punch comes from, but low end is usually a close mic thing.

How does 1 tom mic sound by itself recorded with all the other mics unplugged? Lots of beef and low end? Or is it still thin and wimpy?
 
Hey all, just an update, I tried out a 3 mic setup (2 overheads and room mic) and got a lot nicer sound out of the toms and ended up turning all of the close mics down. We've left the snare and the kick on just to get a clearer sound out of them, but it's pretty much an old fashioned mic setup. We've gotten a much better sound out of them this way.

Thanks for the input! I'm hoping to post up some material once we get it recorded.
 
Glyn Johns.. your almost there without knowing it.

Space the 2 overheads in equal distance with the centre microphone. use the distance from snare centre to first OH as a guide.
Then back the snare mic away from the head and point it a little towards the shell.

Your going to get a snare hihat mix in the hi hat mic and snare body from the snare mic with a touch of bottom and snare rattle.

As you indeed have found out, the character of the kit you get from the 3 OH and the kick n snare you can add to taste.

I play a Slingerland (24,10,12,18) and if you follow this guide then you will get that typical 60's sound with a modern kick and snare , I also use now 2 mics in the bass drum as most recordings want a lot of click these days.

Have fun
Simon
 
All good advice on here. As you've already discovered, proximity effect aside, a more "wholesome" & satisfying sound is produced some distance from the drums. You hear a resolved sound (i.e. all the different elements coming together), whereas a close mic hears only what's in it's immediate vicinity. With the exception of bass drum, close mic's have their place, but only usually in a support or augmentation role.

Looking forward to your results :)
 
Also, don't confuse a finished recording sound with raw tracks

This small post is a big ole' chunk of good advice. Back in the summer my main band recorded an EP. We used legit equipment, but it had to be done in our frontman's basement. After recording the first song and playing it back (it was just a drum track - no other instruments) I was full of nothing but doubt. My snare drum came out sounding almost like a plastic bucket. There was so little snare sound, and it seemed so dead that it could almost have been mistaken for a conga drum if I had recorded it without the other drums.

I was assured not to worry about it. Everything would be fine. We wrapped up the six song EP in about an hour and a half, the drum tracking at least. I had to try to be spot-on and work with what I had because we didn't have the options of multiple takes due to time. But I was able to re-do the songs I just completely screwed up on. I doubt you'll have that issue. Don't be afraid to do as many takes as you need. Never settle for a track you aren't happy with.

Sure enough, a month later the finished product was released, and much to my suprise it sounded 100% better on the finished product. Granted, nothing sounded fantastic, because we were aiming for an 80s hardcore sound, but for what it was, it was truly a beautiful recording.

The point I'm trying to make is - if you're in a legit studio, they can work wonders with just about anything. So if you're just doing a raw recording and aren't happy with it because of the way something sounds, let them make some changes to it. I'm sure they'll make it fit your ears soon enough. As long as your playing is satisfactory to you and your band, you'll be taken care of.
 
The point I'm trying to make is - if you're in a legit studio, they can work wonders with just about anything

My experience has been almost exactly the opposite. Garbage in means garbage out, or a whole hell of a lot of unnecessary work to try to fix things in the mix.

I've found that if I get good mic placement, in a good spot in the room, with good tonal choices regarding cymbals/tuning/dampening/snare drum/heads, on playback I hear a drum track that is 90% or even 95% of the way there. When you mix, everything is exaggerated, not necessarily enhanced. If it's a great raw recording, it'll come out sounding incredible. The inverse is also true.

GC, You've got an amazing kit. Based on your OP it sounds as though you're having a phase issue. Work on your mic placement and balance, and the issue should alleviate itself.
 
GC, You've got an amazing kit. Based on your OP it sounds as though you're having a phase issue. Work on your mic placement and balance, and the issue should alleviate itself.

That's my thought as well, which is why I has asked him to try out just one tom mic with nothing else and see if it sounded thin and puny. Just as a test to see if it was indeed phase problems with the mics.

Also, the only real way to get a good drum sound out of a bad sounding recording is to replace everything with samples. Then you have to resort to extremely high passed overheads to keep the junk tracks out of the mix. If I were forced to go that rout, I'd rather just fill the drums up with packing peanuts or something or program them altogether. Preference of course for well tuned drums that sound great and huge. Only way to get junk in to not equal junk out is to mute the junk and replace it with something else.
 
This small post is a big ole' chunk of good advice. Back in the summer my main band recorded an EP. We used legit equipment, but it had to be done in our frontman's basement. After recording the first song and playing it back (it was just a drum track - no other instruments) I was full of nothing but doubt. My snare drum came out sounding almost like a plastic bucket. There was so little snare sound, and it seemed so dead that it could almost have been mistaken for a conga drum if I had recorded it without the other drums.

I was assured not to worry about it. Everything would be fine. We wrapped up the six song EP in about an hour and a half, the drum tracking at least. I had to try to be spot-on and work with what I had because we didn't have the options of multiple takes due to time. But I was able to re-do the songs I just completely screwed up on. I doubt you'll have that issue. Don't be afraid to do as many takes as you need. Never settle for a track you aren't happy with.

Sure enough, a month later the finished product was released, and much to my suprise it sounded 100% better on the finished product. Granted, nothing sounded fantastic, because we were aiming for an 80s hardcore sound, but for what it was, it was truly a beautiful recording.

The point I'm trying to make is - if you're in a legit studio, they can work wonders with just about anything. So if you're just doing a raw recording and aren't happy with it because of the way something sounds, let them make some changes to it. I'm sure they'll make it fit your ears soon enough. As long as your playing is satisfactory to you and your band, you'll be taken care of.

The magic of Steven Slate. Lot of engineers do this. Either augment or replace entirely. They may have even brought in another drummer to their own studio and completely redone your parts. I've seen folks on the recording forums do this and ask whether they should tell the band or not. Redoing the part took them less time than fixing up and editing the original parts and their clients were happy.

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For the op, if turning off mics helped, you probably had phase issues with mics canceling out the lows of other mics.
 
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