Meg White

Re: Jack White Defends Meg

I don't like to say I like this style or I hate that style. There are a few styles I don't like to listen to, but basically I love well (or very well :) ) played music, and I don't care for badly played stuff. I also like some well programmed (and thought through) music.

There are some exceptions, meaning not very brilliantly played, but nonetheless beautiful or attractive for any reason pieces of music.

If a group of classy musicians play a relatively simple piece of pop music, it will have groove, it will have subtlety, it will have dynamics, it will have feel (meaning the musicians know what they're "saying") etc. Of course the song must be good, or at least appeal to me too, but while bad musicians can ruin everything, good ones will make many things worth listening to.

Matthias, I don't like to say I like or don't like a whole style either. I never wanted to become musically close-minded like my father, and I was determined to keep up with new music and appreciate it for what it was. However, hard core versions of metal, rap and techno have defeated my ideals of hip old-fartdom. My ears outvoted my ideals.

Generally, I try not to dis any musicians or style but I've noticed that while I've remained polite and positive others have had no qualms about getting stuck into Meg (Hi JP!). So I thought I'd pass on a bit of negative straight shooting from my end :) It's not my usual style because I believe there's something out there for everybody, including the cloth-eared unwashed masses :)

And no, WS is not typical "catchy pop" - they are a one-off, there's no one like them. I'm more of an indie, prog, jazz, fusion and blues gal than a pop gal as a rule although I'm a sucker for an appealing melody and/or harmony.

I don't care how skilled musicians are (or not). I was into over-the-top virtuosity when I was young but not any more, apart from special cases like Mahavishnu, who aimed to create music that was so out there that it was transcendent and succeeded spectacularly. John McL's One Truth Band, which could be loosely thought of as Mahivishnu Lite, was one of the most glorious live acts I've ever seen. You had to be there to believe it; the album didn't capture half of it. And if you get a chance to see the remarkable Art Ensemble of Chicago, do it. I'm talking about music that takes you to another place. On the other hand, my favourite gig ever was Queen in the mid-70s.

Some music touches me for no particular reason - like the White Stripes. As Jeff said, Jack's artistic vision is great. I would never have imagined such a pure ostinato approach to drumming could be so effective, but somehow it does. I've tried to think of more "interesting" ways of drumming to Seven Nation Army but not one of the extra things I've thought of would have made the song any more effective and most likely the changes I've thought of would dilute its effect.

JT, if Meg's a puppet, bear in mind that a lot of drummers, even "good" ones, wouldn't be capable of helping Jack realise his musical ideas so well. Meg needs openness, discipline, solidity, flexibility, selflessness and the intelligence to understand his ideas to do what she does. It's harder than it looks.

As for the Ayreon track, it was very well done but I felt that, for such an ambitious work, there was nothing new and the male singer's mannered delivery was irritating. If I was going to listen to a heavy opus I'd probably go for something that took itself less seriously and had less of an AOR angle like Todd Rundgren's Singring and the Glass Guitar or Uncle Frank's Joe's Garage (was that the Central Scrutiniser I heard on Pt 3 of the Ayreon track? :)

Not knocking it. If I was on a desert island with only Ayreon that would be ok with me; it's cool music. But I'm not about to become an Ayreon fan or a metalhead because there's so much other music I'd rather listen to. Having said that, BassDriver recently posted a link to Tool's Reflection and it blew my mind. I dunno, there's no accounting for taste.
 
Re: Jack White Defends Meg

JT, if Meg's a puppet, bear in mind that a lot of drummers, even "good" ones, wouldn't be capable of helping Jack realise his musical ideas so well. Meg needs openness, discipline, solidity, flexibility, selflessness and the intelligence to understand his ideas to do what she does. It's harder than it looks.

As for the Ayreon track, it was very well done but I felt that, for such an ambitious work, there was nothing new and the male singer's mannered delivery was irritating. If I was going to listen to a heavy opus I'd probably go for something that took itself less seriously and had less of an AOR angle like Todd Rundgren's Singring and the Glass Guitar or Uncle Frank's Joe's Garage (was that the Central Scrutiniser I heard on Pt 3 of the Ayreon track? :)

Not knocking it. If I was on a desert island with only Ayreon that would be ok with me; it's cool music. But I'm not about to become an Ayreon fan or a metalhead because there's so much other music I'd rather listen to. Having said that, BassDriver recently posted a link to Tool's Reflection and it blew my mind. I dunno, there's no accounting for taste.

Ok I disagree with the originality thing as he recruits guest musicians for every album and creates music that takes you to a different world well for me but that's why I asked your opinion that's cool =).

On Meg being a puppet I really honestly believe most other drummers could do what Meg does and I really think that yeah she has discipline to hold back but I also think that she doesn't need the discipline because she is so very limited technically. And I get it I really do, I love some of the songs that The White Stripes produce and I think she is perfect for the band, you introduced me to Icky Thump and I think it's really damn good. But I really think that people are trying to make her sound far better than she actually is.

So to quote you Polly we will have to agree to disagree =).

I can say one thing, she has superb balance, because I don't think I could sit on a throne that high without falling off (0:40), http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4rYaLBUpLA&feature=related
 
Re: Jack White Defends Meg

Ok I disagree with the originality thing as he recruits guest musicians for every album and creates music that takes you to a different world well for me but that's why I asked your opinion that's cool =).

On Meg being a puppet I really honestly believe most other drummers could do what Meg does and I really think that yeah she has discipline to hold back but I also think that she doesn't need the discipline because she is so very limited technically. And I get it I really do, I love some of the songs that The White Stripes produce and I think she is perfect for the band, you introduced me to Icky Thump and I think it's really damn good. But I really think that people are trying to make her sound far better than she actually is.

So to quote you Polly we will have to agree to disagree =).

I can say one thing, she has superb balance, because I don't think I could sit on a throne that high without falling off (0:40), http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4rYaLBUpLA&feature=related

I've heard a lotta of off-the-wall stuff, JT, and none of the musical devices in that Ayreon vid were things I haven't heard before. They were aiming high so I judge by those standards.

I don't know why so many people think that what Meg plays is all that she can play. Very few drummers get the chance to show off their whole range. Obviously she's limited and sounds clunky in some songs, but for the most part she executes far more solidly than a lot of neighbourhood drummers who, instead of noodling sloppily, could do well to learn to play ostinatos to Meg's level.

I'm sure she could add simple fills here and there if she wanted to (or was allowed to?). She rides with quarter notes whether the tempo is slow or fast. Take that link you posted ... she could play fills in that slow tune but that's not her role (but yeah, she rides high!).

I doubt many other drummers would be able to behave themselves well enough to make WS music work. After a few songs I'd be pleading "Jaaack, PLEASE can I do this fill here ... please please please". A lot of us would and that would just screw it up. Extra notes in that music would probably lead to less expressiveness. It makes sense to have a drummer who can execute what's required without getting bored and disappearing off into Noodle Land.

I don't want to make out she's a hot drummer but I like the concept - super simple, super clean, great drum kit sound. No one's ever taken rock drumming minimalism to that level and the WS show us just how deep the rabbit hole goes. I love the space she leaves in which the music can happen but I'm an 1/8th note ticker from way back and I'm not sure I could feel comfortable trying to groove with all those yawning voids.

Here's another great little WS tune: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0L7FuA8Rry8&
 
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Re: Jack White Defends Meg

I can say one thing, she has superb balance, because I don't think I could sit on a throne that high without falling off (0:40), http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4rYaLBUpLA&feature=related

wow! you're not kidding! i didn't know she sat so high. she's almost standing straight up! i could never play like that either, at least not very well. i'll bet she's up like that so she can be seen by the crowd over that very high rack tom (holy tom angles!)
 
Re: Jack White Defends Meg

The whole point is that Meg is perfect for that band. My bass player (also a drummer) and I talked about this yesterday- she brings an energy to WS, and she's irreplaceable.
She'll probably never be in another band, but she's the best drummer in the world.

...for The White Stripes.
 
Re: Jack White Defends Meg

It takes a lot of security and confidence in one's time feel to leave space between the notes. I used to not be able to ride quarter notes, I couldn't deal with that much space, though it felt like I wasn't trying hard enough or something. Wrong approach. Luckily that all changed, and now, many times during gigs, I am not riding at all. Just kick and snare, and my right hand is just hanging there. And it works great. People look at me sometimes when I do that, and it's like they're saying to themselves.."He's not even using his main hand?!?!" Riding quarter notes (where appropriate) sounds so good to me now, because I am secure enough in my time feel that I don't feel the need to mark time every 1/10 of a second. Space in drumbeats sounds great to me now and Meg uses it to her full advantage.
So advanced, it's simple. (sort of)
 
Re: Jack White Defends Meg

It takes a lot of security and confidence in one's time feel to leave space between the notes. ... lt like I wasn't trying hard enough or something. ... Luckily that all changed, and now, many times during gigs, I am not riding at all. Just kick and snare, and my right hand is just hanging there. ... Riding quarter notes (where appropriate) sounds so good to me now, because I am secure enough in my time feel that I don't feel the need to mark time every 1/10 of a second. Space in drumbeats sounds great to me now and Meg uses it to her full advantage.

Well done, Larry! That's a good skill you've learned. Ringo was another who could leave those gaps without any riding. Listen to this bass/drum track of A Day in the Life (can't remember who originally posted it but his blood is worth bottling). An aspect of rock drumming that's not always given due attention is the ability to come back in after a stop with real impact - every time. Ringo did that and Meg is good at it too. A necessary survival trait in the WS.

I guess this must put me in the "Meg ROX" camp ... "ROX" ... ha! I feel like I just shaved decades off my life - a wonderful thing given that yesterday I "celebrated" my 100th birthday (ok, it just felt like that).

Maybe we need to create The Meg White Challenge? Create a drum track for Seven Nation Army that's more effective than the original.
 
Re: Jack White Defends Meg

Maybe we need to create The Meg White Challenge? Create a drum track for Seven Nation Army that's more effective than the original.

i think it'd be fun to have a contest to create the most over-the-top, overplayed drum track for that song. whoever comes up with the most complicated part wins!
 
Re: Jack White Defends Meg

i think it'd be fun to have a contest to create the most over-the-top, overplayed drum track for that song. whoever comes up with the most complicated part wins!

Hmm, which will it be - the metal version or the gospel rendition? How about the prog-fusion Seven Nation Army variations, riding the hats with 16th note triplets? Is there a drumless version out there?
 
Re: Jack White Defends Meg

Maybe we need to create The Meg White Challenge? Create a drum track for Seven Nation Army that's more effective than the original.

This is a GREAT idea. And I can get you a drum-less version of the song, I think. It's available on Rock Band 2, so there's got to be a way to yank the audio in practice mode.
 
Re: Jack White Defends Meg

Hmm, which will it be - the metal version or the gospel rendition? How about the prog-fusion Seven Nation Army variations, riding the hats with 16th note triplets? Is there a drumless version out there?

Best Idea I've heard in years. I'm in.
 
Re: Jack White Defends Meg

JT1, you put it very well. I don't think limiting herself has anything to do with it either; I think what she does is really all she can do.

you guys are probably right, but it's all by design. i read an interview with jack white someplace where he said he doesn't want her to get any better. he doesn't want her to take lessons or practice. he's deliberately trying to get a naive, ultra simple sound out of her because that's exactly what he's going for with the white stripes.
 
Re: Jack White Defends Meg

- with zero ego or delusions of grandeur - and execute songs at a level acceptable for professional recordings. Jack White came up with a great concept and Meg fulfills her role well.

Well said (and the rest). It's amazing the snobbery of anything not complicated or "drummy" by some here.

As for Jack White sucking, last I heard he had 3 bands that have done very well, owns a recording studio, and is a pretty well known producer as well.

...just sayin'.

Hopefully some of the posters will do as well in their endeavors.
 
I think what upsets people about Meg is that she challenges expectations. I think many people have certain standards in their head about how a pro drummer should play. Then along comes Meg who defies those standards, and the end result is a great sound and great success. That must be frustrating for some!

I see this sort of thing in the arts all the time. For example, I've been involved in video/film production for a long time. Back in the day, there was this accepted standard that if you were making a dramatic fictional narrative, you mounted your camera on a tripod and held static shots or made very smooth camera movements. If you went handheld and ended up with shaky footage, it was considered "sloppy" and "amateurish." Then somebody decided to intentionally break "the rules" and make shaky footage on purpose. The style really caught on. Now you see that kind of camera work all the time.

What you end up learning is there are no rules in art, and you realize that what works, works. Meg totally works.
 
Thanks Karl and well said, Boomstick.

What I find interesting is that Meg's playing works. In the old days I would have scoffed at her too and, really, you wouldn't think that playing so simply could possibly sound right. Yet it does because her kit sounds great. The way drums struck is important in sound production, and this is an aspect of Meg's playing that's often not acknowledged.

I'm also guessing that if she played more normally the listener might start feeling the lack of a bassist. You have to approach things differently in duos.
 
The thing that gets me is how most people always assume that 'fancier' is better.

If something works, it works. It doesn't even matter HOW a person does, or gets to, the 'works' part of it. Good technique or bad, weird angled drums or flat...

You work on things so it's easier to get whats in your head out of your hands.

That's not the point of the Stripes, so you'd not hire a Vinnie or Dennis to play it.

You'd not even bring in a Grohl to play it. It'd be too 'right'.
Sometimes you have to forget everything and just do it. "Over thinking it" is what kills most things creative. And I think a lot of people would find it a little difficult to let go and leave so much space to keep it that simple.

Taking a few words from Steve Jordan, "just because something is simple, doesn't mean it's dumb".

Meg does her thing in the Stripes and that's about the extent of it.
You don't see her playing in other groups, trying to claim some glory, she isn't going out for interviews, or having management say "if you want her on your roster, you gotta do a bunch of ads". She has a few endorsements and they do what they are supposed to do for each other. She's using gear she likes, and people see her using that gear.

I bet even Steve Gadd could walk into a Guitar Center, sit down, play one of his 'money beats' and the kids around (who wouldn't know who he is) would say "who this geezer? he sucks" and try to blow some blast beats to show off.

I'm not comparing Gadd to White, but it's the same idea. What each of them plays works for the music they are doing.
 
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