Hey, I need help understanding a jazz exercise

V

vorsybl

Guest
Hello, I've developed an interest in the style of jazz. I bought a bunch of books on jazz drumming and bebop. My guitarist friend has let me listen to groups like Ornette and Miles Davis, and to say the least I decided I wanted to be able to play like these drummers. To have that kind of facility would just increase my market value so to speak.

On to the exercise. This may or may not actually relate to the grouping idea that I asked about here a while ago.

Basically its talking about a "3+3+2+4" pattern inside a bar of 4/4. According to the text, there are "3 bars" within this frame. Thing is, I don't understand that. 3 bars of what? My understanding of 4/4 is that there are four quarter notes, and each one can be subdivided into triplets, eighths, 16ths and so on. So where does this "3+3+2+4" come in?

They show notes labelled :
"1 A 2 A 3 4 A 1 A 2 3 A 4 A 1 2 a (16th note following a dotted 8th) 3 4"

Then they put a 3 over the first two parts, a 2 over the third, and a 4 over the last. My guitarist friend tried explaining to me what it meant, he said that the first 2 parts are quarter note triplets, and the "1 A 2 A" are eighth notes that cut the 2 quarter notes in half. But how the hell does all this fit inside 4/4???
 
3 bars inside the phrases? (not familiar with this use of frame) I see 3 bars in the listed notes ie 4 appears 3 times. I would guess it's something like:
1 a2 a3
4 a1 a2
3 a4 a*
1 2 a3 4
(* this might go in the line below, I think of the swung note as nearest the next quarter note in phrasing)

This seems like a good split for the straight quarter notes getting a phrase split


Hopefully someone can give you a confident right answer, I'm just beginning jazz as well.
 
Yo good looks man but I actually still dont get it. I'm not sure how to play the exercise because I'm not sure how to think of the notes. I guess I'm pretty noob after all but usually when I count it's using 16th and 8th notes. So eighth notes are always counted as "ands" and 16ths always as "e + a." Based on this understanding it doesn't fit with this exercise. Here I scanned the page so you can see it better.
 

Attachments

  • exercise.JPG
    exercise.JPG
    25.6 KB · Views: 295
Thanks for the clarification, I was thinking of swung triplets for the a's but I think the A is just &/+ in this case versus an a.

Yeah it still holds mostly, instead of thinking about 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 they're trying to give you a way to group them, think of it like breath in between speech or a wind instrument.
reading it straight doesn't give much feel, but if I split it up like this I can hear the pattern just by counting the phrasing.
1 & 2 & 3
1 & 2 & 3
1 & 2 &
1 2 a3 4

As an aside I'm constantly asking for clarification on when we're counting + a's as triplets versus 16ths. 16ths are really straight and I have a hard time not swinging them.
 
I still don't get it man but thanks for your time anyway. I'm just not sure how those note values fit inside 4, or even what the note values are
 
Hmm, let me try another approach in the hopes that i'm not leading you further astray and the jazz police will put out a warrant.

I'm guessing you're thinking about 4/4 and bars which is the way it's originally written. Very rigid, very straight forward approach to reading what's written, but doesn't say a lot about interpretation. What they're suggesting is that instead of thinking as the beat as 1234 1234 1234 (12 beats)
you can find an equivalent 12 beats with 3, 3, 2, 4.

If you want to apply a rough 'bar = phrasing' the first two bars are 3/4, then 2/4 4/4. You'd still get 12 notes, same tempo, just 4 "bars" instead of 3 each one with it's own implied feel which is what they're trying to express.

mathematically the notations are supposed to be identical, it just specifies an interpretation so your tendency is to play it less mechanically and with more swing, or simply to help you break it down and learn it quicker.

Vertically on the charts you provided you can see how the notes line up exactly, and evenly. If you wanted to play it through in one shot it'd be daunting. By putting it in phrases and breaking it down it can be helpful to play those 3 bars faster by recognizing 4 separate phrases or ideas, the first phrase repeats, then there's a shortened version missing the last beat, then a very traditional jazz pattern at the end.

If you wanted to phrase it differently you can do that if it makes more sense, see how the first 5 notes repeat two more times? Have the group of 3 appear three times, 3 + 3 + 3 is 9, you're missing one more group of 3 at the end, which is the last bar's 2 a3 4 in the original notation, and for the new phrase is 1 a2 3.

Using spaces for time you can see that they're all playing the same thing
Original: 1 A 2 A 3 4 A 1 A 2 3 A 4 A 1 2 a3 4
Phrasing: 1 & 2 & 3 1 & 2 & 3 1 & 2 & 1 2 a3 4
AltPhrase: 1 & 2 & 3 1 & 2 & 3 1 & 2 & 3 1 a2 3

If I was coming up with the translation from the original notation to the given phrasing, my thought process would be something like:
The notation shapes show that the first 3 beats match the next three, this makes a good candidate for a phrase that can be repeated. At the end is a straight jazz ride pattern that's different then the rest, let's make that the last phrase. And then there's a little snippet in the middle that gets its own short 2 beat phrase.
So my core ideas were: staple repeatable pattern twice, bridge into, traditional jazz ride

I got a feeling someone's gonna smack me so at this point I'm interested in other people's thoughts.
 
Last edited:
I can understand why you need help with this one. I have a migraine from trying to figure it out myself.

May I suggest Chapin's "Advanced Techniques for the Modern Drummer" as a much easier place to start learning jazz coordination. That, or John Riley's "Art of Bop Drumming" are where folks generally start learning their jazz chops. Of course, there is also listening to tons of jazz. No transcription can accurately express the swing feel. Listening to and absorbing a lot of jazz is the only way to really get it.

Good luck.
 
You are basically playing 3 bars of time (3 counts of 4) within a 4 bar space.

You do this by playing what's called "over the bar line" and "metric modulation"and counting 8th notes.

Count the 8th notes and the quarters but don't get hung up on 4/4 time in four bars.

If you count all the way through and forget about where you think the quarters (1,2,3,4) should be, you will find that you will have three counts of four within the same space as four counts of four. The reslting effect fools the listener (and some musicians!) into thinking the tune has slowed down but in fact you are still playing 4/4/ time especailly when accents are added. But this looks like just an exercise on how to group within four.

The bottom example shows how to group them by 3's or 2's as a way to help simplify counting them.

I hope that helps.
 
That example is from Jack Dejohnette's book with Charlie Perry, which you should own- they explain it fully, along with the history of it and everything. The note values are just 8th notes and quarter notes, no triplets of any kind- what you're doing here is playing in 3/4 during a tune in 4/4. The phrase is the very familiar 3/4+3/4+2/4 (which equals two measures of 4/4), plus one measure of time in 4/4. Notice that they've written identical passages out both as

1 a 2 a 3, 4 a 1 a 2, 3 a 4 a

and as

1 a 2 a 3, 1 a 2 a 3, 1 a 2 a

to illustrate a) that you're playing in 3/4 while in 4/4, and b) how the 3/4 falls against 4/4.

You can swing the 8th notes, or play them straight, ECM-style. If you swing them, play the 8ths and the dotted-8th/16th rhythm with the same interpretation; likewise if you play them straight... you get the picture.

I don't actually think of this as a metric modulation, or as something done for an effect. It has its roots in African music and is just a common way phrases are constructed in jazz, and it's one of the things at work when you hear a jazz drummer playing modern, broken-up time.
 
Yo thanks to everyone all the explanations make sense now. Especially the fact that the numbers don't indicate triplets and just regular notes

It's funny, all this time I"ve been concentrating on fast subdivisions as the key to getting good, like 16ths and 32nds, when really a lot of the interesting stuff is found in eighth and dotted eighth notes

Alright so I'm going to give this a try, and if you all have some time tell me if I'm playing it right, where I'm going wrong, etc. I'll try and think of the exercise as just eighths and quarters, and play it accordingly. Or should I Be playing it swung? My recording setup is real easy I can just yeah and I don't have access to my teacher to show me the way so I can use this as a tool maybe.

But I Like to practice these types of exercises to a click since my module comes with one built in, and that's the main thing I"m not sure how to fit these notes into a click of four beats, 4/4, I'll try though

Ah i figured out a translation for it into 16th notes, hopefully it's right. I'll try it both swung and straight,

Oops that was wrong, but I think I got it now finally I guess I"m slow. If you divide the space of three bars in 4/4 in eighth notes in quarter notes, youd get a pattern like in the exercise. I get it now. The notes go over the barline like someone said, it's a real trip actually. I knew jazz would use these crazy concepts.
 

Attachments

  • jazz.JPG
    jazz.JPG
    17.5 KB · Views: 166
  • metricmodulation.mp3
    1.3 MB · Views: 86
Last edited:
Nah you helped too dude I Just couldn't see it at first. Now I do obviously though, I'm really excited to start working through these now. Along with comping exercises
 
Glad to hear you are making progress! Keep us posted.
 
Yeah, now that I understand this finally I can notate all my exercises using this "counting pattern" (3+3+2+4) if you will. I finally understand what grouping means now. This is it. You take a bunch of notes that fit inside X number of bars, then you can group them however you want. As 3/4 even 5/4 probably and beyond. Mad nice, this is a totally new level of rhythm

I mean, technically, you could do stuff like oh I dunno 4+5+3 couldn't you? If you were to use 12 quarter notes that is, you could group the notes in any way that adds up to 12?

Wow like I'm so glad I understand this now. I can apply this concept to grooves that I know how to play and it'll probably sound crazier.
 
Back
Top