Am I a terrible drummer?

Zurgman, It is not that you are a bad drummer. I am a marching band percussion instructor. I teach the drumline and pit percussion. I have also taught a beetles show with a drum set player in the pit percussion.

I almost know what your band director is going through. Or maybe I am wrong and he is just a complete ******. The drum set player in my pit was a good drummer but was not doing what he needed to. When you are playing in a marching band that is doing pop/rock/jazz anything where there is normally a drum set player you have to do it the way it was on record. I know that the marching band I taught was a competition band. The first critique of that season that I went to they did not mention the drumline. They told me that the drum set player was not Ringo enough. So that is where my work started. The parts you were given may not be what Ringo played (if you are given music). So it is your job to listen to your field show music and The Beatles recording of what it is supposed to be. From here write out your own music note for note. It can be in standard western civilization notation. Or just a drum tab. It really doesn't matter how you write it although from a percussion instructor I recommend getting comfortable reading and writing western notation. From there learn the parts note for note. Then try to recreate the feel that Ringo had. Honestly this is the hardest part. A lot of young and old drummers alike can't get a good feel for how something is supposed to be. But work on it and you will improve on all aspects of drumming. Remember that one of the first steps of being a good musician is mimicking the masters.

As far as the Set up goes. Go ahead and set up the drums like he wants you to and then just move them a little bit to where you can get comfortable. In marching band visual representation is actually important. Sure it might not be important in all aspects of playing but this time it is.

So just give your band director the benefit of the doubt. More than likely he knows whats best.

And most importantly keep on playing and Have fun playing.
 
Nobody will play like Ringo. I was joking around with a fellow this weekend who played in a Beatles tribute band. Tasteful grooving player, and he is a lefty playing righty so he should be able to nail Ringo. He gets close to the feel but told me that it's much harder than it looks. http://youtu.be/KG0MA1ZErUk
When playing other people's music, start by trying to capture as much of their vibe as possible. You can learn from everybody''s playing. If you're playing in some sort of show/tribute/someone else's band, try to reproduce that. If you're playing in your own band doing your own thing, start from where you found it and then add yourself. Don't shortcut the way you found it.

About a year ago, I was at a jam and was behind a singer who turned out to want everything to be like a runaway freight train. She started the song in free time and didn't count in, so I played it at standard tempo. A friend who is a much better drummer than I was laughing afterwards and said that I played it "exactly where famous and important producers and arrangers had long ago decided where it should be". In the absence of any other direction, I played it like the record. Everyone else knew where to be with the original tempo and groove (as best as I could manage it).

I completely agee about Ringos identifiable "feel' and groove.Trying to alter Ringos drum parts,without actually completely altering the arrangement is probably not a good idea.

This is an excellent example of when less is more,and recreating his original parts should be your goal,and not seeing how many notes you can play to a bar.

Just a point of information however,there were 3 different drummers on the "Imagine" album; Alan White(who actually plays drums on the title cut),Jim Keltner and Jim Gordon.

Steve B
 
Regarding Ringo's oft used hi-hat technique, I believe its called "Buttering the Bread" or something similar. As for the 2 to 3 year experience players not having much control of dynamics or sound!! I would take great issue with that. Its like anything, If you are good enough you are good enough, regardless of age, experience or gender.

I am yet to see an add for a drummer that includes "Must have at least 20 years experience, or you wont be any good". Not in my neck of the woods anyway and If someone did I would avoid the numpties like the proverbial.

I disagree with just about everything you say here. But that's cool. That's what it's all about! It's good to have different views.

Davo
 
Mr. Zurgman, the optimist in me is saying that perhaps your MD likes you and is trying to better you. It sounds like he gets the fact that the drums can make or break a piece, and perhaps he is trying to steer you down the right path because maybe he sees something in you that can be developed. I would take his critique as positively as possible, and please, don't even think about the quitting thing.

From the info you provided, what you are playing...it sounds like you aren't doing what he is looking for, at least in some places. If you can learn to take comments that are designed to be helpful to your playing...even if the delivery is less than optimal...that skill will serve you well. I suggest recording your practices so you can hear what's going on. Things that don't work should be readily apparent. Taking that recording to the MD for his opinions can only help you, and it will show him initiative on your part. It will give you a chance to really discuss any problem areas, and since you are not playing and have all your brainpower to analyze things, maybe his comments will make more sense.

Learn to use criticism to benefit you, and keep it positive. An open mind and a willingness to hear and use criticism is a great skill, and not limited to drumming. A positive attitude, even when someone is questioning your choices, is admirable. So try and be that guy.

I always say, hey I'll play whatever you want. If someone has an intelligent opinion about the drum part, it's in your best interest to try what is being suggested.
 
I disagree with just about everything you say here. But that's cool. That's what it's all about! It's good to have different views.

Davo

Hey I don't mind you disagreeing with me at all, but it would be nice to know why.

On the longevity of playing issue, I still don't see how the length of time you have played comes into it. I could have been playing for 20 years, for 2 hours per week and still be a poor drummer. Our friend, the OP could have been playing for 3 years, 8 hours a day, every day, and be a great drummer. Or he could just be a "Natural" who finds everything about drumming easy. Who can tell.
 
Not sure what your long term goals are...but...

The question re: your drumming skills is irrelevant.

The question is, how do you respond to negative feedback?...accurate or inaccurate.

If you do not respect the source, ignore it.

If you respect the source, explore it.


One of the difficult long term learning skills re: drumming(or anything else) is how to learn and persist.
 
So many questions to answer... So, for starters I have been trying to play more like ringo Starr, I have just found that for me personally he just had a certaint, almost uncapturable element, so simple yet tasteful at the same time, which is something I struggle with. I set my kit up relatively average, I flatten my toms, have a ride and a crash cymbal, etc. This is marching band, so often times the battery is playing so I'm not completely dependent on tempo, and as far as dedication goes, I honestly just don't know what he means. I've practiced every day, showed up to every rehearsal (required and optional) and done what Ive been told without batting an eyelash. Sorry if I didn't provide enough info the first time, I'm new to this forum, also, im sorry for not providing feedback sooner, I'm busy with school.
 
That was Alan White on Imagine. Post Beatles song.

You know, despite what the collective says here, I've always thought Ringo's drumming on Come Together was lacking, so I do a hybrid of the Aerosmith version and the Beatles version. I've never played it any other way and you know what? I've never had one complaint.
 
I love Ringo...he's one of my favourite drummers of all time. And he's massively under-rated.

But, seriously, I have to say this. His drum parts, in the main, are not particularly challenging.

Try.. "I Feel Fine"..it blew me away when I had to learn it a long time ago; I had no idea Ringo could play like that; each limb is syncopated and fast. The pattern is kind of an inverted copy of Ray Charles "What You Say?" Funny thing is I read that a Lennon interview where he said around that time Ray's tune was all the rage, and one of the reasons they hired Ringo over Pete Best was that he was one of the few that had that kind of Latin rythmn down cold..
 
That was Alan White on Imagine. Post Beatles song.

You know, despite what the collective says here, I've always thought Ringo's drumming on Come Together was lacking, so I do a hybrid of the Aerosmith version and the Beatles version. I've never played it any other way and you know what? I've never had one complaint.

I completely disagree.I think Ringos drumming on that tune ,fits the arrangement perfectly.What exactly was it lacking?

The difference between his performance and Joey Kramers, is so slight as to be negligible.The only real difference, is a few more beats in Kramers fill,and a slightly faster tempo,which was no doubt a Lennon/Martin decision,and not Ringos.He could have easily played it faster if need be.

Was George Harrisons lead and solo,"lacking" what Joe Perry played also?:):)

Steve B
 
Lots of good points brought up here. But this statement may also be a clue:

"These are things that I've always felt very strongly that should be left to the drummer himself"

If you are focused on you it will show up. You need to be focused on the overall sound and provide your part of it. And if you are playing Beatles music as a tribute in a school band and the director wants you to play more like Ringo, then that is what you need to do.

What none of us can tell is how good you are or what kind of band director you have. You may be giving us the impression you get from him but that may not be the impression we would get if we watched the interaction. It is ALWAYS best when being criticized is to listen and evaluate for yourself. As humans, and even moreso when we are young, we tend to not take criticism well. EVen if the band director is being too harsh on you, by listening and evaluating and improving it will help you in the long run.

A picture of your set up and a video of your playing would allow us to evaluate more objectively.
 
I completely disagree.I think Ringos drumming on that tune ,fits the arrangement perfectly.What exactly was it lacking?

The difference between his performance and Joey Kramers, is so slight as to be negligible.The only real difference, is a few more beats in Kramers fill,and a slightly faster tempo,which was no doubt a Lennon/Martin decision,and not Ringos.He could have easily played it faster if need be.

I personally think Ringo's playing on that was just right, and really a 'signature' of him. Greta dynamics.
The other difference of course is Ringo had dishtowels on his toms for that cut. Thats why the drums are so muted, or thud like.
George Martin was having Ringo use that a lot for some of their last works. You can also see dishtowels on his toms for the concert for Bangladesh (the movie).

To the OP, don't give up, take what positive advice you can from your director. My guess is he's asking you to underplay or at least not overplay. I think Ringo is a great reference to use, the same way somebody would say "try to play it more like" Keith Moon (impossible?) or John Bonham.
 
I completely disagree.I think Ringos drumming on that tune ,fits the arrangement perfectly.What exactly was it lacking?

The difference between his performance and Joey Kramers, is so slight as to be negligible.The only real difference, is a few more beats in Kramers fill,and a slightly faster tempo,which was no doubt a Lennon/Martin decision,and not Ringos.He could have easily played it faster if need be.

Was George Harrisons lead and solo,"lacking" what Joe Perry played also?:):)

Steve B

It's just a personal preference. I'm not looking for anybody's approval.

I play the verse part with a money beat and 8th notes on the BD whereas they play it in half time. Kramer plays the snare, Ringo kept it on the toms. In the verse, I like to play it by riding on the crash for those 3 measure and after the solo part before the third verse I use 3 barks on the hats rather than a grab of the cymbal on the 1. It's subtle differences, but it just feels better to me, and like I've said, nobody has ever complained.
 
The crux of this particular biscuit is how one deals with critique. Critique can easily sound like criticism, and it's easy to deliver critique as criticism if one is not careful. Try and ignore any emotions a bad delivery stirs and focus on what's really being suggested. People can unintentionally hurt with words, just let it roll off your back.

On another note, it took me a while before I was able to hear everything going on. For a bunch of years in the beginning of my drumming journey, my "listening sphere" didn't expand past the drums. Playing good drums requires good listening skills, (means listening to the others) and a knowledge of what the role of the drumset is in an ensemble situation.

Like generally speaking, unless your name is Keith Moon, the drums are not a lead instrument. They lay down the pavement so the lead players can roll their leads out. Of course the drums are much more than that, but you have to have that going on as Job 1, generally speaking.
 
I knew Imagine wasn't Ringo, but that was an easily found clip that had the Ringoish vibe. I didn't know that Alan White was on the cut though. I can see Keltner or Gordon coping the vibe but I always thought of White in the Yes vein. Goes to show that a really good musician has more gears than you think.

That is one of the things that people starting out miss out on, I think. Copping the vibe and feel of the songs and the players on them. I think there is more to learn there that is musically useful than in complex time signatures and such. Somehow, you have to let go of the flash and recognize the skill needed to play all these different genres and feels. And feel the same sense of accomplishment when you get the feel that's on the original that you get when you manage to get though some elaborate riff.
 
It's just a personal preference. I'm not looking for anybody's approval.

I play the verse part with a money beat and 8th notes on the BD whereas they play it in half time. Kramer plays the snare, Ringo kept it on the toms. In the verse, I like to play it by riding on the crash for those 3 measure and after the solo part before the third verse I use 3 barks on the hats rather than a grab of the cymbal on the 1. It's subtle differences, but it just feels better to me, and like I've said, nobody has ever complained.

I think it's just awe inspiring that you aren't seeking anybodies approval.It's equally astounding that no ones has ever complained.Tacit approval can be inspiring

So because Ringos performance is DIFFERENT than yours,his was some how LACKING? Not just different....and totally original?

So no credit for actually coming up with the drum parts to an original song,and having to please three of the biggest celebrity musicians in the world,not to mention some of the most critical perfectionists in McCartney and producer,George Martin.

The ground work was already done.That's the hard part.

Steve B
 
Zurg,

Sorry to read you're having a hard time, no one likes to be beaten into the ground daily, not fun.

There has been a lot of good advise given here, you're new to the site, so It may read like tough love, but those who have offered advice are good folk, and are looking to help.

One point I would echo, is to try and have a quite word with the MD, at a time when he is not rushed, and ask for some pointers and examples of where he feels things are not going right, it will show you care, and are willing to ask for help.

If it is a question of maybe you're overplaying, try to get this out of your system when you're practicing on your own, then put on your Ringo hat for rehearsals.

Lastly, drumming is meant to be fun, even in a band or drumline, so keep your head high, and realise after 3 years of drumming you're the one on the stool, not someone else, so its not all going wrong!

Please keep us up to date with how things progress.
 
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Larry, I thought it was the Apostrophe!

"The crux of this particular biscuit is how one deals with critique"
 
I think it's just awe inspiring that you aren't seeking anybodies approval.It's equally astounding that no ones has ever complained.Tacit approval can be inspiring

So because Ringos performance is DIFFERENT than yours,his was some how LACKING? Not just different....and totally original?

So no credit for actually coming up with the drum parts to an original song,and having to please three of the biggest celebrity musicians in the world,not to mention some of the most critical perfectionists in McCartney and producer,George Martin.

The ground work was already done.That's the hard part.

Steve B

Nice one Tad.

That is the whole crux of being a musician, coming up with the part in the first instance. Its ok guys saying, I can play that, that's easy.....but they did not have the nouse to come up with it as an original piece.

As Stewart Copeland said: "Slavish devotion to copying and emulation is the death of musical creativity. .’ That whole thing of replicating what others do is a siren call. The sirens lure you to the rocks of unoriginality."
 
I think it's just awe inspiring that you aren't seeking anybodies approval.It's equally astounding that no ones has ever complained.Tacit approval can be inspiring

So because Ringos performance is DIFFERENT than yours,his was some how LACKING? Not just different....and totally original?

So no credit for actually coming up with the drum parts to an original song,and having to please three of the biggest celebrity musicians in the world,not to mention some of the most critical perfectionists in McCartney and producer,George Martin.

The ground work was already done.That's the hard part.

Steve B

I don't care as much as you do. Ringo can go pound sand. Sorry that I don't hold all these drummers in such high regard as you do. I like playing things my own way and hitting the signature parts. If I think a part is lacking, then I make it my own. If I can't play a part, then I do what I can. I don't hold such a deep reverence for the original song parts like you guys.

So freakin' what?
 
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