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  #1  
Old 11-12-2012, 09:40 PM
dwforever dwforever is offline
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Default Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

I can`t be the only one that has noticed this...
There is only a tiny, slight, miniscule difference between expensive, big-brand cymbals and unbranded beginner cymbals. I mean, sure expensive cymbals look awesome, and there is a much wider range of different cymbal types with big brands, but unless you listen super closely, there is only a real difference if you are comparing an A Custom Ziljian to a TERRIBLE beginner cymbal...

Anybody else agree?

Also, WHY ARE THESE TAGS SUCH A CHORE TO FILL OUT?!
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  #2  
Old 11-12-2012, 09:43 PM
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

I know alot is based on personal opinions so I will just say that your's could not be more wrong! : )
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  #3  
Old 11-12-2012, 09:47 PM
Anthony Amodeo
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwforever View Post
I can`t be the only one that has noticed this...
There is only a tiny, slight, miniscule difference between expensive, big-brand cymbals and unbranded beginner cymbals. I mean, sure expensive cymbals look awesome, and there is a much wider range of different cymbal types with big brands, but unless you listen super closely, there is only a real difference if you are comparing an A Custom Ziljian to a TERRIBLE beginner cymbal...

Anybody else agree?

Also, WHY ARE THESE TAGS SUCH A CHORE TO FILL OUT?!
you may want to see an ear doctor

you are so far off base that you might as well just steal second

the difference between high level cymbals and beginner level cymbals is so huge that I almost feel that there needs to be more middle ground for intermediate players

wow.......waaaaaay off with this post

I kinda hope it's a joke
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  #4  
Old 11-12-2012, 09:48 PM
The Old Hyde
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

Ive played both ends of the spectrum and I personally find a huge difference in low end versus high end cymbals. And thats not brand against brand, its beginner versus intermediate or pro level cymbals.
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  #5  
Old 11-12-2012, 09:50 PM
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

I noticed at a gig one time, the guy was playing Zildjian ZBT cymbals, which are the lower models, and they sounded great. Now, those are still Zildjians, and they wouldn't put their name on a piece of junk, but it got me wondering why I pay extra for A customs....

On a flip side, i have A customs all around, but I have one Zildjian K crash, and it sounds better than the A customs.....a lot better....

It comes down to preference, but i see your point. Unless the cymbal is a garbage can lid, it'll prolly sound decent if miced properly...
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  #6  
Old 11-12-2012, 09:56 PM
Anthony Amodeo
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterZero View Post
I noticed at a gig one time, the guy was playing Zildjian ZBT cymbals, which are the lower models, and they sounded great. Now, those are still Zildjians, and they wouldn't put their name on a piece of junk, but it got me wondering why I pay extra for A customs....

On a flip side, i have A customs all around, but I have one Zildjian K crash, and it sounds better than the A customs.....a lot better....

It comes down to preference, but i see your point. Unless the cymbal is a garbage can lid, it'll prolly sound decent if miced properly...
if mic'd properly?

what in the world are you guys listening to ?

take a better low end cymbal.....say a ZBT ride ....or even an old Paiste RUDE ride ......and play it against a handmade Istanbul ride.....or a Spizzichino ride ......or maybe an old K

if you think proper micing could save the ZBT from sounding horrible next to those cymbals.....I don't know what to tell you
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  #7  
Old 11-12-2012, 10:04 PM
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

There are huge differences.

I hate to break it to you but I'm afraid you have no idea what you're talking about.

If you have actually played a wide variety of cymbals in different musical contexts and developed your technique to the point where you can play cymbals well (a lot of players can't) then I would perhaps accept your appraisal. As it stands I'm afraid it seems you speak with blissful ignorance over that which you survey.
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  #8  
Old 11-12-2012, 10:12 PM
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

I've owned Zildjian ZHT's, paid $340 for a set, and hated them. Sounded cheap and tinny. Then I go hear a band, note that the cymbals sounds decent, pretty good and find out they are even cheaper ZBT's. So I don't know. I guess I can't get a good sound out of a cymbal.

But I Zildjian K darks are in a different league altogether. Bought an 18" crash for $160 used which I thought was a wise investment.

Perhaps for loud death metal music (??) any cymbal with do. But with intricate quiet music there's no doubt a K would outperform a ZBT any day.
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  #9  
Old 11-12-2012, 10:15 PM
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

Personally, I couldn't wait to upgrade from my budget cymbals a few years ago. I could care less how they looked. I just simply couldn't handle the harshness of them. It almost made me not want to play drums I hated them so bad. The difference to me was daylight and dark, and was the best purchase I have made since I've been drumming. Even the budget cymbals I had were some of the best budget cymbals available, but there is no comparison to a quality cymbal.
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  #10  
Old 11-12-2012, 10:23 PM
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

I've seen entire bands sound better just cause the drummer has good cymbals, trust me, it makes a difference. Also keep in mind that a lot of styles require specific sounds that are not achiveable (sp?) using low brands cymbals.

As for ZBT's that sound good, keep in mind that it's not the gear, it's the musician. That's why Benny Greb can make a SpongeBob kit sound great.
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  #11  
Old 11-12-2012, 10:35 PM
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwforever View Post
I can`t be the only one that has noticed this...
There is only a tiny, slight, miniscule difference between expensive, big-brand cymbals and unbranded beginner cymbals. I mean, sure expensive cymbals look awesome, and there is a much wider range of different cymbal types with big brands, but unless you listen super closely, there is only a real difference if you are comparing an A Custom Ziljian to a TERRIBLE beginner cymbal...

Anybody else agree?

Also, WHY ARE THESE TAGS SUCH A CHORE TO FILL OUT?!
I look at it like karaoke cover song recordings vs the true recording. It's not a matter of the lower grade equipment not getting the job done....it's a matter of it not sounding as good.

This is a half analogy and half literal truth.

Tonal frequencies are far more broad and diverse in higher grade cymbals. They have a much bigger vocabulary.
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  #12  
Old 11-12-2012, 10:42 PM
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwforever View Post
Anybody else agree?
No.

In fact, I'm struggling to recall the last time I so strongly disagreed with someones opnion.
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  #13  
Old 11-12-2012, 10:43 PM
The Old Hyde
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

Was this a drive-by post, the OP hasn't come back.
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  #14  
Old 11-12-2012, 10:57 PM
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

I completey disagree vehemently with your supposition.There is a big difference in low end cymbals and top shelf cymbals.That said..of course there are entry level and mid level cymbals that sound good.

The thing is,some drummers can't tell the difference.I see that you're only 15,so your experience here is somewhat limited.Prehaps the longer you play,and the older you get,you'll develop a somewhat different taste in pies.

When I was working part time selling stereo's (sound systems) while in college,the first thing I would do is ask how much a customer wanted to spend,and what they liked to listen to.I would generally then demonstrate a lower end system,and then something more in line with the afore stated budget.

If the systems sounded similar to the customer,I would sell them the cheaper one,and tell them to use the extra money saved..to but some records(thats when we had vinyl).

So if a Zil ZBT sounds as good to you as a Zil Turkish K,then by all means..buy with your ears,and spend the rest on extra sticks and some CD's or sox ..or a new hat...what ever you want.Also,I would stick with the lower drum kits too,no point in going high end or custom.But don't you play DW?HHMMM...a paradox for sure.

You're entitled to your opinion,but trust me..it will along with your taste.....change over time.:)

Steve B
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  #15  
Old 11-12-2012, 11:32 PM
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gvdadrummasum View Post
you may want to see an ear doctor

you are so far off base that you might as well just steal second

the difference between high level cymbals and beginner level cymbals is so huge that I almost feel that there needs to be more middle ground for intermediate players

wow.......waaaaaay off with this post

I kinda hope it's a joke
+1 and could not agree more.
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  #16  
Old 11-12-2012, 11:35 PM
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesn't matter?

I believe that we have a fifteen year old troll on our hands, either that or he's partially deaf or doesn't practice good personal hygiene on his ear canals. Have you listened to a lot of very loud music in your short time on this planet or any other planet? lol.

I really hope that you're not serious.

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  #17  
Old 11-12-2012, 11:38 PM
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamadrm View Post
I see that you're only 15, so your experience here is somewhat limited.
Ah, makes sense then. Most definitely this^^

I'll be interested to hear your thoughts in 5-10 years. I very much doubt you'll feel the same way.
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  #18  
Old 11-12-2012, 11:48 PM
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

I'm sure most of us learn this stuff by trial and error.

You start with cheap cymbals and you really have to get to know them well to get them to sing in their particular way - I believe that all objects are capable of pleasing rhythmic effects and sounds when played with feel. Steve Gadd on a cardboard box, Dave Grohl on a kiddie drumkit etc.

So yes, even the most terrible cymbals can sound good if played right.

BUT ... they are unforgiving. If you don't play a cheap instrument exactly right then it sounds awful. Higher quality cymbals are more forgiving of weakly committed strokes and have a much wider range of attractive tones. When you work with ugly tones you need to be more exact with your dynamics to blend in with a band or it sticks out like the proverbial ...

You only find out what you like after you've butted your head against the limitations of cheap cymbals to the point where you hanker for something better.
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  #19  
Old 11-12-2012, 11:50 PM
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

Ever get the feeling you've just been trolled?
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  #20  
Old 11-12-2012, 11:57 PM
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

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Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
Ever get the feeling you've just been trolled?
I'm giving benefit of the doubt. I think he's sincere and at the start of the journey and testing his ideas out in the world. Obviously, he's learned a few things:

- Yes, there is a very significant difference between cymbals (though a vast middle ground of taste).

- If you make an assertive statement that's very naive you will be slapped down. I understand this time-honoured process has been handed down the generations from the old jazzers, many of whom who were far from genteel in their dealings ...

- Assertive naive beliefs are often confused with trolling.
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  #21  
Old 11-13-2012, 12:01 AM
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post

- Assertive naive beliefs are often confused with trolling.
Ah yes. I looked this posters history, and I was confusing this person with someone else who had previously posted some inflammatory thread and left.

My bad.

But yeah, huge difference in cymbal quality.
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  #22  
Old 11-13-2012, 12:10 AM
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

I can do cheap hats, can bear a cheap crash but I can't stand a cheap ride (unless its a freak).

I think you probably haven't heard enough cymbals to know what's good and bad... But to be fair I think alot of 'pro level' cymbals sound shit. Go hunt for some ufips.
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  #23  
Old 11-13-2012, 12:28 AM
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dre25 View Post
I can do cheap hats, can bear a cheap crash but I can't stand a cheap ride (unless its a freak).

I think you probably haven't heard enough cymbals to know what's good and bad... But to be fair I think alot of 'pro level' cymbals sound shit. Go hunt for some ufips.
This! I'm going to go against the grain just a touch:

Sabian B8 (or comparable) hats will get you by with their riding and chick sounds. It's when you play an open slosh where you can tell the real difference, especially in a miked situation. If you like a medium ride, ping ride, heavy ride, or flat ride (anything with more "ping" than wash) you can get by with a B8 (or comparable) ride for rock gigs. When you're playing a club and miked up, you can even get away with using the beginner crashes, 'cause once they cut through the guitar stacks, you lose much of the low and midrange frequencies, and you're left with the piercing highs, which, quite frankly, all kinda sound alike in that situation.

Also, some cheap cymbals that come with entry-level kits, including the nickel-silver cymbals like Ludwig/Paiste Standards from yesteryear, hold their own against other "higher end" cymbals, even the expensive hand-hammered artisan cymbals. It just shows that sometimes the pro cymbals are clunkers, and sometimes you can find gems among the not-so-desireable level cymbals.

...besides all that, though, in general pro cymbals sound leaps and bounds above the cheaper lines of cymbals.
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  #24  
Old 11-13-2012, 12:33 AM
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

Quality means a lot of things. At one point I used ZBT's for shows and they weren't bad (as I've seen in other post as well, these were my first cymbals). I worked up to XS20's and noticed the difference dramatically, they have a much smoother feel and actually feel like a cymbal, as apposed to a ZBT that just feels like a piece of metal you hit. I worked up again to RUDE's, Alpha's, and 2002's but didn't notice much difference between them and the XS20's (guess that's my own outlook). In the end I actually went back to my XS20's because I had grown so attached to them and actually sound and feel fairly good to me. The higher quality the cymbal series the more to choose from as well. Look at AAX's for example, so many different types of crashes, rides and sizes. As apposed to my XS20's (the basic 14, 16, 18, 20) set up in medium or rock, some companies don't even offer that (Meinl MCS for example). The more popular the cymbal the more a company invest into it, like Alpha's. Are they pro? No, but they have thin's, mediums, rock, metal, swiss's, and they continue to add to them because people like them and want them. Quality is somewhat personal opinion (I made my export selects pro grade with opti mounts, pearl 2000 arms, and masters lugs to me its pro grade, that's an opinion), but saying a ZBT and K Hybrid or a B8 Pro and Paragon are the same is not the case here.
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  #25  
Old 11-13-2012, 12:49 AM
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

I think the main factor in quality of sound is whether the cymbal is cast or sheet construction. Of course, this affects price.

I still play with Zildjian ZXT and Sabian B8 cymbals in some circumstances and can get decent sounds out of them. But for my kit that I play out at gigs, I have Zildjian A Customs all around. For the most part, they are significantly better sounding than the other cymbals (especially crash and rides). However, I don't hear too much better sound in the hats.
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  #26  
Old 11-13-2012, 01:18 AM
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by inneedofgrace View Post
I think the main factor in quality of sound is whether the cymbal is cast or sheet construction.
I get where you are coming from, but the only problem with the sheet/cast debate is that it blatantly ignores things like Paiste 2002's and Giant Beats. Both sheet, both lightyears away from an entry level cymbal.
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  #27  
Old 11-13-2012, 01:24 AM
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocket-full-of-gold View Post
Only problem with the sheet/cast debate is that it blatantly ignores things like Paiste 2002's and Giant Beats. Both sheet, both lightyears away from an entry level cymbal.
+1
He taught me that thankfully, it's even on Paiste site. I can see why people say the whole sheet thing (as I did) mainly because of how Zildjian advertises their low end (ZBT, ZHT, ZXT) as sheet and the higher up stuff as cast. That's at least what I used to think of.
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  #28  
Old 11-13-2012, 01:33 AM
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

Every time I see a screen name that ends in "forever" I know it's a teenager. He is 15. give him some time and he will realize that his ear is not yet trained.
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  #29  
Old 11-13-2012, 01:42 AM
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

original poster posts once and then gone from thread
interesting
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  #30  
Old 11-13-2012, 02:04 AM
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
Ah yes. I looked this posters history, and I was confusing this person with someone else who had previously posted some inflammatory thread and left.

My bad. .
Maybe not so bad - as Big D said he's not returned. A total of 18 posts, of which 12 open a new thread ... that's different.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:12 AM
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

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Maybe not so bad - as Big D said he's not returned. A total of 18 posts, of which 12 open a new thread ... that's different.
I'm not even going to say which member that reminds me of. No, it's not Glen...
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  #32  
Old 11-13-2012, 04:38 AM
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

Of course, cymbal quality matters but this reminded me of a funny story:

I was doing a session at a studio in NY well known for getting great pop/rock drum sounds. The engineer had just finished the last Avril Lavigne record the week before and was telling us about his favorite drums and drum head combos. After a long discussion on drum sounds, I asked him what about cymbals. He looked at me quizzically and said "I don't know, they all
pretty much go "Psshhh".
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  #33  
Old 11-13-2012, 06:07 AM
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

Sometimes you can get a cheap cymbal that sounds really good by accident. I buy kits off craigs/ebay, and a lot of them are for people who didn't really know what they were doing, bought good drums and cheapo cymbals. When they realize they will never play, they sell it all, and I end up with lots of cheap cymbals.

I actually have 2 zbt rides, and one zbt crash/ride... Interestingly, one of the rides sounds pretty damn good. I use it sometimes, along with it's matching crash that's also not bad. The other ones never leave the bag unless I'm screwing around or loaning them to other drummers who came to the gig and forgot their own cymbals.

Anyway, I think there is less consistency in quality in the low end stuff, but sometimes you get a diamond anyway.
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  #34  
Old 11-13-2012, 11:37 AM
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

I think cheap cymbals can sound good sometimes.....sometimes. But I think cymbals really stand out in how they color a sound, particularly how they fit in the sound field and what, if anything, they might be stepping on.
Also, cheap cymbals lose their ability in live situations, I think. With many clubs not running overheads, cheap cymbals tend to not have the power, presence or fullness to compete over the rest of the band.
In the studio, however, with proper microphone techniques and the right situation, a cheap cymbal....or even a broken cymbal, can sound good.
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  #35  
Old 11-13-2012, 12:01 PM
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manningluck View Post
Tonal frequencies are far more broad and diverse in higher grade cymbals. They have a much bigger vocabulary.
Just about sums it up for me :)

I would, however, like to point out one notable exception - chinas. Not all, but especially if you want a short & trashy vibe, some really crappy pies can sound just great. Same goes for some splashes & other "effect" cymbal types.

I'll also support the OP's POV if he's only been playing for a short while, & is mainly immersed in very high impact music.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterZero View Post
Now, those are still Zildjians, and they wouldn't put their name on a piece of junk,
Pitch Blacks anyone?
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  #36  
Old 11-13-2012, 12:02 PM
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

I have a couple cymbals I got from the storage a school i used to teach at. One is a no-name crash that probably came with a kit and is all bent out of shaoe, The abuse is probably why it sounds cool. Has a great gong type quality. The other one is about 7" and they just had bunches of those, Probably used in music class some time before is was born.

They're both cool, but for main cymbals on my kit? NO WAY!!! Unless I'm doing some really weird music. They have ONE sound. That's it.
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  #37  
Old 11-13-2012, 02:37 PM
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

Hate to tell you guys, but...
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  #38  
Old 11-13-2012, 04:15 PM
Bonzobilly Bonzobilly is offline
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

I'd rather play CB 700 drums with fine cast cymbals than a SQ2 with beginner stamped cymbals forever....... Check your ears homeslice.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:15 PM
Snoochies A7X's Avatar
Snoochies A7X Snoochies A7X is offline
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

Hi I'm Snoochies and I'm an alcoholic.

That's hilarious. So funny I thought i would do my first post here. And yes I like my meinl cymbals but I do know the difference. I may not need my gibson sg standard or my stingray bass but they truly do sound better.

Last edited by Snoochies A7X; 11-14-2012 at 04:09 PM.
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  #40  
Old 11-13-2012, 04:17 PM
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MisterZero MisterZero is offline
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Default Re: Cymbal quality doesnt matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gvdadrummasum View Post
if mic'd properly?

what in the world are you guys listening to ?

take a better low end cymbal.....say a ZBT ride ....or even an old Paiste RUDE ride ......and play it against a handmade Istanbul ride.....or a Spizzichino ride ......or maybe an old K

if you think proper micing could save the ZBT from sounding horrible next to those cymbals.....I don't know what to tell you
You don;'t have to tell my anything. I just said that i heard a set of ZBT that sounded great at a gig. period.
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