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  #201  
Old 11-27-2014, 01:47 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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I have absolutely no problem with someone wanting to be in an all male band, or all female for that matter. You should play with who you are comfortable. I just think most people would have said, I really prefer not to play in a band with a female...good luck. That I would have understood. But he was very adamant. "I CAN'T play in a band with a female in it", then practically hung up the phone on me. I do believe there was something deeper going on there. Just my opinion.

Personally, after having tried working in an all girl band as the drummer, I now prefer to work with guys. Too much estrogen in that room for me for sure...lol. However, I would never completely close that door if the right musician/vocalist came along that added to what we were doing and they happened to be female. I think a band really limits themselves to what they can do if they completely close the door on one or the other. But I do agree, it's your choice to play with whom you please.
I see your point....I hadn't focused specifically on the vociferous nature of the choice of word.

Yes, "can't" implies some kind of allergy, or maybe some kind of very serious history involving women.

Aye...a bit weird really.
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  #202  
Old 11-28-2014, 06:35 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

ok, it took me reading up to the fourth page to see what happened, im not good at reading between the lines. Madge don't you know the drummer gets all the chicks?? in your case the dudes, but it just comes with being a drummer! its not sexism, its rock and roll man! Even Andy has to fight them off......
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  #203  
Old 11-28-2014, 06:51 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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its rock and roll man! Even Andy has to fight them off......
Errr - no. Once in the last few years, but that was fairly freaky.
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  #204  
Old 11-29-2014, 03:21 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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Out of interest, have you found that jealous OHs generally have/have had good reason to be so?
Usually no, but there's more than the one side of this coin. Specifically with what we love to do, I've seen it cause more than a fair share of relationship problems. A lot of the time, we love music almost more than anything else in the world, and it becomes a huge source of jealousy for those that love us and want more of our attention. There's a running not-funny joke in my house that even though there aren't any "extra" women in my life, I still have a mistress who I sneak off to visit any time there's an available second to do so. Her name is Music. I think about her all day and all night, spend countless hours with her, and have a constant struggle to balance my time with her and my time with my real life gal. I'd be lying if I said there wasn't some jealousy.
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  #205  
Old 11-29-2014, 10:30 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

Ah I understand, Watso. That's complicated.
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  #206  
Old 11-29-2014, 10:37 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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I'd be lying if I said there wasn't some jealousy.
Agreed - my actions are tolerated - just :(
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  #207  
Old 11-30-2014, 02:22 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

I've been reading this thread with lots of interest and, if I may, I'd like to offer an observation:

Sexism is a very real thing and it is disgusting. On that I'm sure 99% of us can agree. However, I'm seeing several comments on this thread from males which say things like "I'm not a sexist myself", "It's a shame there are people who treat women differently to men", "I treat women equally so I don't really understand why sexism exists". These are very heavily paraphrased, of course.

I think this attitude does an enormous disservice to feminism and equality. Frankly, in my experience, almost every male I have ever met treats women less well than they treat other men. It's a cultural, generational thing, as has been said here several times, but it is also still super common in our society. If you say "I'm not a sexist, it's only the other guys" then you are instantly invalidating the entire movement. Nobody wants to identify as sexist. Nobody wants to consider that maybe they have been acting unfairly towards women. But if we all just shift the blame onto the next male, nothing will ever happen and we will all continue to subtly be unfair towards women in our own ways.

Mostly, it's not intentional. Most of us believe that women are capable of anything men are capable of - but beliefs and actions are two very different worlds. A great illustration of this was in an article I read earlier this year, which claimed that in a group conversation, the men will naturally tend to talk over the women, and the women will often have difficulty having their opinions heard. At first I thought "rubbish! I don't do that!" - But next time I found myself in that situation, I listened carefully. And holy heck; I was shocked by just how true it was, and how casual and unnoticed it was (at least by the guys). Worst of all, I realised that I was just as bad as every other guy in that conversation!

Since then, I've been making a very conscious effort to try and treat all people equally in my life. But the thing is, I have to make a conscious effort, and I still catch myself messing up from time to time - you absolutely can not say "the problem is not me" and carry on your merry way. The problem is you. The problem is me. It's a strongly ingrained part of our society and no positive change will come about unless we all actively try to change our actions for the better.
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  #208  
Old 11-30-2014, 02:47 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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Since then, I've been making a very conscious effort to try and treat all people equally in my life. But the thing is, I have to make a conscious effort, and I still catch myself messing up from time to time - you absolutely can not say "the problem is not me" and carry on your merry way. The problem is you. The problem is me. It's a strongly ingrained part of our society and no positive change will come about unless we all actively try to change our actions for the better.
Hell yeah. There's an article going around about an MTV study (right??) that many people, millennials specifically, believe they're "colorblind" and don't want to talk about race- what a crock. Racism is not just the considered, obvious disenfranchisement, it's the microaggressions and subtle biases too- same with sexism. The fact that some people (not specifically this thread, referring to the subjects of the study) separate themselves from racists/sexists automatically by assuming the guise of objectivity is just not helpful, especially when that makes them more defensive about anything racist they might be doing. Speaking openly and honestly about oneself as a human, with human flaws, is the best way to step towards a less ridiculous power balance between the oppressors and oppressed.
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  #209  
Old 11-30-2014, 05:14 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

If we could ratchet the hand wringing back just a smidge...it is entirely possible for a person to be spectacularly unpleasant to a black woman while being neither racist nor sexist.



The person could just be a dick.
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  #210  
Old 11-30-2014, 06:28 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

Yes, but overt racism and sexism isn't the issue anymore (on a wide scale). Its subtle racism and sexism.

In your analysis, you'd be correct. That's not what this thread is about though.
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Old 11-30-2014, 07:45 AM
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  #211  
Old 11-30-2014, 05:55 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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Since then, I've been making a very conscious effort to try and treat all people equally in my life. But the thing is, I have to make a conscious effort, and I still catch myself messing up from time to time - you absolutely can not say "the problem is not me" and carry on your merry way. The problem is you. The problem is me. It's a strongly ingrained part of our society and no positive change will come about unless we all actively try to change our actions for the better.
Couldn't agree more. It's all of us doing it, women as well as men, and we'll all go on doing it until we make a conscious decision to stop.

Update on Low-Level Guy: I've seen him twice since he bothered me. I had posted photos and statuseseses on FB indicating "happily married", and when we met afterwards he alluded to it and behaved absolutely normally and entirely unobjectionably. By last Thursday, things were so far back to normal that we exchanged a matey hug at the end of a really good evening at jam night. This is a huge relief! When he bothered me, it was only the third time we'd ever met, and he hadn't troubled to find out whether or not I was available or interested, which was what pissed me off.
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  #212  
Old 11-30-2014, 06:13 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

" Since then, I've been making a very conscious effort to try and treat all people equally in my life. But the thing is, I have to make a conscious effort, and I still catch myself messing up from time to time - you absolutely can not say "the problem is not me" and carry on your merry way. The problem is you. The problem is me. It's a strongly ingrained part of our society and no positive change will come about unless we all actively try to change our actions for the better."

Surely if you consciously have to think "Now this is a woman/Ethnic minority/Gay person" and modify your behaviour to suit, then you already have a big problem? Possibly caused by upbringing or social peer pressure.

I dont feel I have to make alowances for anyone, regardless of gender, ethnicity etc. The thought never enters my head. People are people the world over. Sure there are nice ones, stupid ones, dicks, and even morons but they are never defined by there race, sex or religion.
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  #213  
Old 11-30-2014, 06:49 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

I think she meant conscious effort NOT to modify your behaviour to "suit".
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  #214  
Old 11-30-2014, 07:21 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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Surely if you consciously have to think "Now this is a woman/Ethnic minority/Gay person" and modify your behaviour to suit, then you already have a big problem? Possibly caused by upbringing or social peer pressure.
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I think she meant conscious effort NOT to modify your behaviour to "suit".
You're both right.

The point is that we should become aware of those attitudes and behaviours we have that we are NOT aware of, that if we were, wouldn't sit comfortably with the attitudes and behaviours that we want to exhibit. Then we address them so that the default is unequivocally egalitarian, and at that point we no longer have to modify anything.

There was a documentary on the radio some years ago about a racial equality training programme carried out by a police department in the US somewhere. It focused not on trying to teach the officers to change their attitudes, but on identifying where prejudice might be affecting them, so that the officers were able to check themselves. They weren't being blamed for having prejudices that may have been caused by peer influence or social upbringing, but they were expected to have sufficient self-knowledge and self-control to challenge them.

The documentary presented this method as being successful. I have no idea whether or not it was, but I hope it was, because I like the idea of self-awareness influencing us more than anything else. Decent people don't want to be racist/sexist/whateverist, but if we don't ask ourselves questions, how can we know for sure that we aren't?

It's like learning drumming technique. Am I holding the sticks correctly? If I'm not, I make a correction, but I continue to ask the question and make the correction until such time as I don't need to any more, because I no longer know any other way to hold them.
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  #215  
Old 11-30-2014, 09:21 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

Porter - right on! The same attitude is prevalent in so many parts of life, or least so many 'isms', and it can be hard to know what exactly is even contributing to the problem.

Mikel and Picodon - Yeah, fundamentally that means there's already a problem and I've grown up treating women differently than men. Fundamentally my point is that it's dangerous for us to assume that we individually are already at some peak of gender equality, and that we should all strive to be aware of how our actions are affecting those around us. I think unconciously treating females less well than men is subtle but automatic thing in most people, and we should all try to be more aware of what we personally can do to help the situation. I'm a 23 yesr old male, by the way.
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  #216  
Old 11-30-2014, 10:00 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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Porter - right on! The same attitude is prevalent in so many parts of life, or least so many 'isms', and it can be hard to know what exactly is even contributing to the problem.

Mikel and Picodon - Yeah, fundamentally that means there's already a problem and I've grown up treating women differently than men. Fundamentally my point is that it's dangerous for us to assume that we individually are already at some peak of gender equality, and that we should all strive to be aware of how our actions are affecting those around us. I think unconciously treating females less well than men is subtle but automatic thing in most people, and we should all try to be more aware of what we personally can do to help the situation. I'm a 23 yesr old male, by the way.



Well...you may do that, and I find it surprising in one so young, but in my circle of friends it would be frowned on, to say the least.

Also, using that generalisation is an "ism" in itself. As I say, people will be people, there are good bad and indifferent in all walks of life and all nationalities, and both genders.

As for "Positive discrimination" What is that all about? Any discrimination is just that. Women can be arses, just like some men. Look at the term for some women, "Fiesty", in a man it would be called ill tempered and bad mannered. No excuses, If you are a dick, you are a dick, regardles of gender.

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  #217  
Old 12-01-2014, 06:39 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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[/b]


Well...you may do that, and I find it surprising in one so young, but in my circle of friends it would be frowned on, to say the least.
I feel like we are not understanding each other. Sexism is massively frowned upon in my group of friends also. I'm saying that often the ways in which it happens can be so subtle that we don't notice. I've noticed this not just amongst friends, or people my age, but across a bunch of groups of society. You say that it doesn't happen in your circle of friends, and I believe that's what almost everybody would say. I am asking you to challenge that assumption, because it certainly does happen it lots of group of friends. Sure, maybe not yours, but if all of us simply say that the problem is elsewhere, then nothing at all will happen. Does that make sense?
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  #218  
Old 12-01-2014, 01:32 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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...how can we know for sure that we aren't?
We can't :)

We may think we are, but at the end of the day, it's how we're perceived by others, male or female, even if we think we didn't make a comment regarded as racist/sexist/whateverist, some people will find it offensive.
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  #219  
Old 12-01-2014, 01:34 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

I am not taking a pop at you but you stated,

"treating females less well than men is subtle but automatic thing in most people,"

And I simply dont agree with that. There are sexist men out there but I dont believe its a cultural thing anymore. I believe its as someone already posted, that some people are biggoted and narrow minded not just sexist, It seems to go with the type.

Being sexist works both ways, there are a couple of women I know, my youngest daughter is one, who are starting to take the femenist line a bit too far, almost to the point of female = good, male = bad. Now in my mind that thought process has nothing to do with equality.
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  #220  
Old 12-01-2014, 04:28 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

This is such a sticky subject. Example: If women truly wanted to be treated equally, that means that any attempt to hold a door open, or help with putting the coat on, or taking it off, or pulling the chair out and helping to push it in...if I'm being fair, that should be labeled that as sexist, right?

I fear that women, while rightfully wanting to be treated equally, don't want to sacrifice the little social niceties that go with the whole man/woman dynamic. To which I say that's hypocritical, a double standard. Now if I'm off there, and women as a whole don't mind if men dispense with those examples of social niceties, then I'll admit that. Personally I feel that women don't want to lose that. I don't do double standards well at all, and I fear this may be a prime example. Equal means equal and that doesn't mean men holding doors and offering to pay all the time, because it's not generally reciprocated.

If this is only about equal pay and respect...naturally I'm all for that. But to be equal in every aspect, then it would be within my rights to expect that I should have a door opened for me half the time and so on. Personally I would feel funny being on the receiving end of a gesture like that. I think that qualifies as an ingrained sexist attitude that I hold doors open and the like. But that's OK to do that, no one has any issues with that part. So there's good sexist and bad sexist. Double standard. Doesn't sit well with me. Equal is equal.

Myself, when it comes to the sexes, I don't want perfectly equal. With the important things, like equal pay, respect, for sure, but socially speaking, in an intimate relationship between a man and a woman, I don't know being treated equal is what women really want. Women want to be treated better than equal, they want to feel special. I have no problems with that. But it *should* be a casualty in the war of equality. But it won't be I'm guessing. Which is fine, but still a double standard.

In an ideal world, according to me anyway, men and women get paid equally, get equal respect, but men still treat women like princesses, and women prefer that to being treated exactly as one of the guys. Like if I punch a male friend in the arm really hard, just messing around, like guys do sometimes, then if equality is truly desired, it shouldn't matter that I blacken a woman's arm while just horsing around. But it does. You can't do that and I don't think it will ever be OK to do that. But it's OK....bonding even....for guys. There will never be true equality across the board. But the areas where women are held back with less pay for the same work, yea those areas need to be updated badly.
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  #221  
Old 12-01-2014, 05:25 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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Personally I would feel funny being on the receiving end of a gesture like that. I think that qualifies as an ingrained sexist attitude that I hold doors open and the like. But that's OK to do that, no one has any issues with that part. So there's good sexist and bad sexist. Double standard. Doesn't sit well with me. Equal is equal.

Myself, when it comes to the sexes, I don't want perfectly equal.
I do want perfectly equal, but not necessarily exactly the same.

I also feel uncomfortable being on the receiving end of chivalrous gestures. I appreciate being helped if I'm struggling with something heavy, for example, but if it's something I can carry easily, I'd rather do it myself. Hell, Mr Madge watches me load and unload Marilyn every week. If I couldn't manage, I hope he'd help me, but I can so he doesn't, and he has never offered to. That's probably because he doesn't realise what a ball-acher it is: other musicians always offer to help me, and I always accept - and I always offer to help them too, and they always accept as well. But it has nothing to do with chivalry and everything to do with common courtesy.

Funny(ish) story: many years ago, when "nice girls" didn't drink pints, I was in the pub and asked for a pint and a half of lager, the pint being for Mr Madge. The barman asked "Is the half for a lady?" Completely at a loss, I replied without even thinking "No, it's for me." Which just about sums me up, I reckon!
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Old 12-01-2014, 05:34 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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I do want perfectly equal, but not necessarily exactly the same.
Maybe I would have an easier time with this comment if the term perfectly equal was substituted with the term equivalent. Perfectly equal connotates exactly the same in every way, in my mind anyway. Equivalent has more wiggle room.
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Old 12-01-2014, 05:44 PM
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Maybe I would have an easier time with this comment if the term perfectly equal was substituted with the term equivalent. Perfectly equal connotates exactly the same in every way, in my mind anyway. Equivalent has more wiggle room.
Mmhmm, I think I can get behind "equivalent" pretty well, as long as it doesn't have that feeling of "nearly-but-not-quite" which it sometimes has.
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Old 12-01-2014, 05:54 PM
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In an ideal world, according to me anyway, men and women get paid equally, get equal respect, but men still treat women like princesses, and women prefer that to being treated exactly as one of the guys. Like if I punch a male friend in the arm really hard, just messing around, like guys do sometimes, then if equality is truly desired, it shouldn't matter that I blacken a woman's arm while just horsing around. But it does. You can't do that and I don't think it will ever be OK to do that. But it's OK....bonding even....for guys. There will never be true equality across the board. But the areas where women are held back with less pay for the same work, yea those areas need to be updated badly.
I agree with you Larry. As a a person of the female persuasion, I enjoy the little "perks" that come with that. I'm a sucker for a man that opens doors for me and treats me "like a lady". In the workplace, if I'm doing the same job, yes, I should get equal pay, etc. Equality definitely has it's place but I think some uber-feminists take it too far. What's wrong with being a girly girl? Men and women are different, that's a fact...it's what makes life interesting, no?

I'm a drummer, I ride motorcycles, and enjoy being one of the guys every so often. BUT, if we're being completely honest here, I also like being noticed as the female drummer or motorcyclist. It's a little unusual and I like that people notice it as long as they do it respectfully. You know, don't call me a "biker babe" but tell me it's cool that I ride a bike. I can even say, I like feeling a little special here at DW because I am one of the few females drummers here (although the number seems to be growing which is great!).
I guess maybe I'm greedy and want the best of both worlds :)
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  #225  
Old 12-01-2014, 06:44 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

[quote=MaryO2;1309415]I agree with you Larry. As a a person of the female persuasion, I enjoy the little "perks" that come with that. I'm a sucker for a man that opens doors for me and treats me "like a lady". In the workplace, if I'm doing the same job, yes, I should get equal pay, etc. Equality definitely has it's place but I think some uber-feminists take it too far. What's wrong with being a girly girl? Men and women are different, that's a fact...it's what makes life interesting, no?

I'm a drummer, I ride motorcycles, and enjoy being one of the guys every so often. BUT, if we're being completely honest here, I also like being noticed as the female drummer or motorcyclist. It's a little unusual and I like that people notice it as long as they do it respectfully. You know, don't call me a "biker babe" but tell me it's cool that I ride a bike. I can even say, I like feeling a little special here at DW because I am one of the few females drummers here (although the number seems to be growing which is great!).
I guess maybe I'm greedy and want the best of both worlds :)[/QUOTE]

And why not? I open the door, If I am there first, for Mrs M, and why not? I often hold a door open for anyone coming into somewhere behind me, Its the way I was brought up. Good manners and a respectfull attitude cost nothing. If someone fails to thank me or I find they are not deserving of respect then they wont get helped again.

I will carry a heavy shoping bag for my wife, not cos she is helpless but because It pleases me. If she refuses well thats not a problem, but I do ask cos its in my nature.
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  #226  
Old 12-02-2014, 07:08 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

In my house, we're all equal until the pickle jar lid gets stuck closed. In that case, I'm superior.
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  #227  
Old 12-02-2014, 07:20 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

I heard a little anecdote once.

Man opens a door for woman.

"You don't have to open the door just because I'm lady!"

"I didn't, ma'am. I opened it because I am a gentleman."
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  #228  
Old 12-02-2014, 09:14 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
In my house, we're all equal until the pickle jar lid gets stuck closed. In that case, I'm superior.
You crack me up man. Is this a metaphor? Interesting that you chose pickle in a sexist thread. Your Fruedian slip is showing lol.
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  #229  
Old 12-02-2014, 09:19 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

The Great Internet Tsunami of 2014 swallowed up a bunch of posts which related to how transgender people are treated, which makes this story relevant.

The story linked has the additional relevance of having drummer content.
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  #230  
Old 12-02-2014, 09:54 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

Hey James...

I find your avatar a little sexist...in the most Christmasy, festive, kind of way....
:P
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  #231  
Old 12-02-2014, 10:39 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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Hey James...

I find your avatar a little sexist...in the most Christmasy, festive, kind of way....
:P
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  #232  
Old 12-03-2014, 02:12 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
You crack me up man. Is this a metaphor? Interesting that you chose pickle in a sexist thread. Your Fruedian slip is showing lol.
Quite literal, though I don't mind if you infer a metaphorical meaning as well. To needlessly expand on this, I was going to say "mayo jar", but I remember reading recently that a lot of the world doesn't use mayo for anything, and my internal dialog decided that pickle jars might be a more universal struggle for the world.

I usually think it's hilarious when she tries to open a stubborn jar for 10 minutes, finally relents and gives it to me, and it takes me 2 seconds to twist that lid off.
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Old 12-03-2014, 02:18 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
Quite literal, though I don't mind if you infer a metaphorical meaning as well. To needlessly expand on this, I was going to say "mayo jar", but I remember reading recently that a lot of the world doesn't use mayo for anything, and my internal dialog decided that pickle jars might be a more universal struggle for the world.

I usually think it's hilarious when she tries to open a stubborn jar for 10 minutes, finally relents and gives it to me, and it takes me 2 seconds to twist that lid off.
I know what mayo is, and what it's used for.

And I know what pickle is (Branston) or -s are (gherkin), and where you would use them.

But I've never seen a jar of stubborn, and not sure I'd want to open it.

Is that something like a can of whoop-ass?
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  #234  
Old 12-03-2014, 02:24 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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I usually think it's hilarious when she tries to open a stubborn jar for 10 minutes, finally relents and gives it to me, and it takes me 2 seconds to twist that lid off.
Well sure, after she's loosened it for you...
..
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  #235  
Old 12-03-2014, 06:44 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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Originally Posted by IDDrummer View Post
I heard a little anecdote once.

Man opens a door for woman.

"You don't have to open the door just because I'm lady!"

"I didn't, ma'am. I opened it because I am a gentleman."
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Originally Posted by mikel View Post
And why not? I open the door, If I am there first, for Mrs M, and why not? I often hold a door open for anyone coming into somewhere behind me, Its the way I was brought up. Good manners and a respectfull attitude cost nothing. If someone fails to thank me or I find they are not deserving of respect then they wont get helped again.
Open the door because you're a nice person. Chivalry is horsecrap, but it doesn't mean you can't be a nice person.

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I am not taking a pop at you but you stated,

"treating females less well than men is subtle but automatic thing in most people,"

And I simply dont agree with that. There are sexist men out there but I dont believe its a cultural thing anymore. I believe its as someone already posted, that some people are biggoted and narrow minded not just sexist, It seems to go with the type.

Being sexist works both ways, there are a couple of women I know, my youngest daughter is one, who are starting to take the femenist line a bit too far, almost to the point of female = good, male = bad. Now in my mind that thought process has nothing to do with equality.
This is an issue of misogyny, which is a cultural construction designed to subjugate women into submission, it's not the same thing as sexism. I'm not even going to try to unpack your last paragraph, but if you haven't noticed microaggressions against women in your daily life, well, ignorance is bliss. Women are confronted with it our whole lives, so please don't try to refute our statements about it.


Good article linked by James, though I think it's important to note that though that person is gender-fluid/transgender, don't take the pronoun usage in that article to mean that y'all can just misgender a person all you want and they won't be angry at you. Please ask the person if you have the slightest inclination that anybody may not be the gender you assign to them, misgendering is a seriously destructive thing.
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  #236  
Old 12-03-2014, 07:10 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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Good article linked by James, though I think it's important to note that though that person is gender-fluid/transgender, don't take the pronoun usage in that article to mean that y'all can just misgender a person all you want and they won't be angry at you. Please ask the person if you have the slightest inclination that anybody may not be the gender you assign to them, misgendering is a seriously destructive thing.
"Seriously destructive"?

I'm sorry, I'm having trouble keeping a straight face reading some of these posts. I find this misrepresentation of severity to be severely destructive to this thread ;=)
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  #237  
Old 12-03-2014, 10:38 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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"Seriously destructive"?

I'm sorry, I'm having trouble keeping a straight face reading some of these posts. I find this misrepresentation of severity to be severely destructive to this thread ;=)
Porter has a point.

Gender identification is a big, big deal to a lot of people. If you had spent your entire life struggling with your gender identity and eventually concluded that you identified as female only for the male pronoun to be used by others by assumption then it can be deeply upsetting.

Case in point. I met a lady that was at the early stages of physical transition. To have used the male pronoun in that instance could have been very upsetting, seeing as the person in question had only recently publicly admitted that their gender identity was female. In that instance, it was a large part of a newly-forming identity. I did get it wrong because of my inexperience but I was trying to get my head around it and not because I wasn't curious and interested - it was a slip because of my preconceived notions and bias that I have subsequently corrected and worked hard on. The others around me were very understanding because it was something that I hadn't come across much before.

It's different for everybody, as with many things but it's the assumption of knowledge by others that's the issue.
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  #238  
Old 12-03-2014, 10:56 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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Porter has a point.
She does indeed, and not for the first time.

FOF Duncan's post below, one of my transgender friends (who hasn't completed transition yet) had an experience the other day which upset her considerably. She was having a drink with a friend, when a complete stranger came up to her and declared "I had no idea you were a man until I heard you speak."

That is ignorance and bad manners combined, in my view.
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  #239  
Old 12-03-2014, 11:26 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

In my experience, the worst thing to do when you're unsure about somebody's gender identity is to simply assume you know how they identify. Some people would be open to discuss it, some won't but it's the assumption that's most harmful. It's always better to ask than to assume. In my experience, most transgender individuals will let you know what is appropriate if you're unsure - especially during transition when it might not be obvious to an outsider.

Learning gender-neutral pronouns and language can also be very helpful if you are unsure, certainly until you know.

Of course, some people won't wish to discuss it and that's absolutely their right. I've always been of the opinion though that curiosity always beats ignorance and if you are curious, then you're much more likely to have engaging discussions with anybody about anything and get it right.
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  #240  
Old 12-03-2014, 01:28 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by porter View Post
Open the door because you're a nice person. Chivalry is horsecrap, but it doesn't mean you can't be a nice person.



This is an issue of misogyny, which is a cultural construction designed to subjugate women into submission, it's not the same thing as sexism. I'm not even going to try to unpack your last paragraph, but if you haven't noticed microaggressions against women in your daily life, well, ignorance is bliss. Women are confronted with it our whole lives, so please don't try to refute our statements about it.


Good article linked by James, though I think it's important to note that though that person is gender-fluid/transgender, don't take the pronoun usage in that article to mean that y'all can just misgender a person all you want and they won't be angry at you. Please ask the person if you have the slightest inclination that anybody may not be the gender you assign to them, misgendering is a seriously destructive thing.

Not refuting anything, merely stating my point of view that most sexist males are also biggoted and narrow minded, not just sexist.

"Ignorance is bliss"? I am married, to a woman, I have a mother, a sister and two daughters, one of them is very much an active feminist so I have 60 + years experience of life and female perspective. Assuming that because I am a man I have no idea what it is like, because I am not a woman, is frankly patronising and not helpfull to the cause of equality.
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