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  #121  
Old 11-18-2014, 06:34 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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Unwelcome, unlooked for sexual advances, this is a first?


Whether it is or not, does that make it right?



People are conditioned to think a certain way... R-W, its that conditioning that creates a misunderstanding. Its not weather its right, or wrong, its what it is.

Saying it shouldn't exist isn't going to help. You accept to be part of it, or not.



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There is very little "real life" about this forum compared to the general drumming scene. Those here are generally way more informed, open, & forward thinking.
I believe most on this forum represent the drumming scene, a lot of the drummers on this forum are the drumming scene, they're out there doing it. There are many more who out there who aren't, but IMO this forum represents the consciousness of the drumming scene in general.


Sexual advance towards women are clearly at a different degree in the UK than here in the states.
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  #122  
Old 11-18-2014, 07:21 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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Originally Posted by John Lamb View Post
I've ran into many, many situations where people assume a host of things about me just because of my career. Many of them are not very nice, and one of them is that I'm untrustable and easy. Add in stupid ("Who would want a career in music if you weren't just stupid?" I've heard that for real, and it was meant)and an alcoholic/drug addict/poor and now you really have someone you daughter wants to date.

If they see you and assume you are easy, and stupid and possibly addicted to drugs, then you can see why they say the things they say.
You're right: it's all about assumptions. I know we all do it, we're all only human and fallible, and we can't always help the thoughts that pop into our heads - but actually expressing them ... I'm almost (but not quite) lost for words. At the same time though, John, I really and truly do look like a perfectly ordinary, sensibly-shod, flowery-scarved middle-aged mother, so quite WHAT these guys have assumed I have no idea!

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You accept to be part of it, or not.
I'm not absolutely sure I understand you clearly. Do you mean that because it happens, we should either put up with it or not put ourselves in a situation where it might happen?

I think it's fairer to make the bad guys responsible for their actions. There are always going to be some numb-nuts, but attitudes can be challenged and changed, and it's incumbent on all of us to do our best to achieve this, particularly those who are able to exert peer-pressure.

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Sexual advance towards women are clearly at a different degree in the UK than here in the states.
I'm not saying it doesn't exist over here, and maybe I live in a bubble, but this present incident is the first of its kind I've experienced since I was 20.
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  #123  
Old 11-18-2014, 08:39 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

Ooooh boy, a sexism thread! I'm a little late to this party..and mostly a lurker. anyway, I have a couple cents.

I'm glad so many people here are so forward-thinking and that Drummerworld is such a great resource, both for men and women. I wish the gender conversation was over and done with, but sadly, it isn't.

I mean, we all (on this forum at least!) know men and women have equal value as human beings. That's a non-story. The problem that remains is those much more subtle, ingrained, yet difficult-to-notice gender assumptions that we all can fall prey to without even being aware of it. It's NOT EASY in this world, for anyone! I'd rather the genders work together, I hate this "gender wars" junk that only drives us further apart.

For me, as a young 20-something drummer who probably grew up with more women in music than a lot of others before me, I'm extremely lucky. Magenta (or is it Madge??), I don't know you, but I can't imagine how frustrating that must have been. I can't add to what others have said except...keep on going!! You shouldn't have to deal with that kind of crap, but I'm encouraged that it may slowly continue to diminish. And by talking about it, and being aware of our own possible biases, we can get rid of it a little faster.

I do want to address the whole youtube drummer trend I see mentioned sometimes. I agree that there are some "Youtube personalities" who get more attention than they necessarily deserve. But hear me out for a bit... On these videos, say, Meytal Cohen, I would see first a lot of, "OMG hot girl drummer lol!!1one!", followed by critique of her technique in some way (which is fine if it's constructive, that's not what bothers me). Then the inevitable, "why is this girl so famous, she's not even that good! I work just as hard if not harder, but I'm a guy so my video only has like 20 views!" And I sympathize with those guys. And when anyone gets credit due to appearance alone, that's completely WRONG, regardless of gender.

But, here's my problem. There sometimes seems to be this attitude of, "Oh, she only got famous because of her looks/gender!" So even if it's true, and sometimes it must be, the girl's talent - or lack thereof- came second to her gender. And when a guy is really talented, I don't see "oh, he's only famous because of his looks/macho-ness!" or appearance-related put downs. You see what I'm saying?

And really, how famous are these Youtube celebrities anyway? You talk to non-musicians in real life, outside of the Internet, it seems they haven't heard of a Meytal Cohen or Capulette...or even Sheila E (and she's not just a Youtube drummer!!). So I feel like the idea of some women "milking their looks" and getting ahead in that way is sometimes overstated. When it does happen, I agree it needs to be shut down right away.

IN NO WAY do I want special treatment as a "girl drummer," in fact I'd rather my gender never come up at all. Most of us are not just doing this for attention - we're doing it because we LOVE DRUMS, like all of us on this forum :) The solution isn't quotas or giving girls a leg up over other more skilled players.. and I don't think that was ever the argument. It's about equal opportunity TO play - and fortunately, we're far ahead of where we used to be in that regard. So Magenta, I think you and I and the many many other "female drummers" out here just need to keep on keeping on - and speaking up when we can. That'll help shut 'em up. Eventually, the playing speaks for itself! Okay... soapbox...I'm getting off of it..
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  #124  
Old 11-18-2014, 09:11 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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So Magenta, I think you and I and the many many other "female drummers" out here just need to keep on keeping on - and speaking up when we can. That'll help shut 'em up. Eventually, the playing speaks for itself! Okay... soapbox...I'm getting off of it..
Absolutely - and not just the "female drummers". All the right-thinking, decent men. And non-drummers of any gender!

PS my friends call me Madge :)
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  #125  
Old 11-18-2014, 10:22 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

This is an interesting thread, to say the least.

I'd like to also point out the attitudes I've seen towards transgendered individuals as being discriminatory and entirely unfounded. I had a very enlightening conversation recently with somebody I know about transgendered people and I learned an awful lot, partly because that individual was willing to challenge and correct me in various presumptions that I had. I must note that I have never had any feelings of ill-regard towards transgendered individuals but I was simply ignorant!

I wish that people could have informed conversations about gender issues, whatever gender it regards. What we see as 'norms', especially with regard to sports, hobbies, interests, roles and abilities should be challenged and questioned. It always irritates me when people make the presumption that females like pink - that's an entirely false construct (and a colour that was traditionally used to represent young boys a long time ago). The idea of 'toys for girls' and 'toys for boys' is another arbitrary construct. I've seen parents refusing to buy toys for their children because they're 'too girly' or 'too boyish', etc. These are attitudes that are reinforced by parents in childhood and ones I take real issue with.

Ramble over. For now.
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  #126  
Old 11-18-2014, 10:41 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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That only makes sense if you assume that the seats belong to men by default until some women can prove themselves qualified to take them. Men get advanced for all kinds of reasons other than merit, especially if half of the population is out of the running altogether because of incorrect genitals. Suddenly holding women to a strict merit standard when everyone else clearly isn't being held to it, is basically what sexism is.


I know exactly what sexism is, and political parties having "Quotas" Is part of the problem, not the solution. It leaves the women chosen by the parties open to remarks regarding there capabilities regardless of how qualified or capable they may be.
It is the process in general that needs to change, jobs for the boys and the old boy network need to be dismantled for both government and industry to thrive. Jobs on merit, not what schools you attended.

Oh.... and more female drummers, I bet Prince's tour bus smells much better than the average.
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  #127  
Old 11-18-2014, 10:53 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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It leaves the women chosen by the parties open to remarks regarding there capabilities regardless of how qualified or capable they may be.
Indeed, this is a good distraction so that we stop making remarks about how qualified or capable the men are.

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Oh.... and more female drummers, I bet Prince's tour bus smells much better than the average.
Dunno, I saw his solid gold bathtub up on eBay a while back... Hard times I guess.
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  #128  
Old 11-19-2014, 12:34 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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I would only ask that you as a female be the first to jump on any thread that starts with the Female Drummer or girl reference and let them know that there are only drummers on this forum. I think that will only strengthen your resolve.
She can try, but I think I speak for all the women on this forum when I say that it's not unreasonable to ask that everybody exercise their right to ridicule the users of "female drummer" or whatever term :)

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Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
Agin.. There are no women. There are only men. Half of men have vaginas, a flipped chromosome, etc.

The entire women/woman thing was made up, so that dicks could control the men with vaginas.

You probably understand by now why even modern-day-feminists and I don't see eye to eye.
Men-as-default, gender-genital-equating... lots of stuff here.

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That only makes sense if you assume that the seats belong to men by default until some women can prove themselves qualified to take them. Men get advanced for all kinds of reasons other than merit, especially if half of the population is out of the running altogether because of incorrect genitals. Suddenly holding women to a strict merit standard when everyone else clearly isn't being held to it, is basically what sexism is.
Absolutely, Todd, great point.

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Originally Posted by classicdrumchica View Post
But, here's my problem. There sometimes seems to be this attitude of, "Oh, she only got famous because of her looks/gender!" So even if it's true, and sometimes it must be, the girl's talent - or lack thereof- came second to her gender. And when a guy is really talented, I don't see "oh, he's only famous because of his looks/macho-ness!" or appearance-related put downs. You see what I'm saying?
Exactly right. Slut-shaming is unacceptable.

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Originally Posted by BacteriumFendYoke View Post
This is an interesting thread, to say the least.

I'd like to also point out the attitudes I've seen towards transgendered individuals as being discriminatory and entirely unfounded. I had a very enlightening conversation recently with somebody I know about transgendered people and I learned an awful lot, partly because that individual was willing to challenge and correct me in various presumptions that I had. I must note that I have never had any feelings of ill-regard towards transgendered individuals but I was simply ignorant!

I wish that people could have informed conversations about gender issues, whatever gender it regards. What we see as 'norms', especially with regard to sports, hobbies, interests, roles and abilities should be challenged and questioned. It always irritates me when people make the presumption that females like pink - that's an entirely false construct (and a colour that was traditionally used to represent young boys a long time ago). The idea of 'toys for girls' and 'toys for boys' is another arbitrary construct. I've seen parents refusing to buy toys for their children because they're 'too girly' or 'too boyish', etc. These are attitudes that are reinforced by parents in childhood and ones I take real issue with.

Ramble over. For now.
Hell yeah, Duncan. (If anyone else has questions about transgender people, please feel free to ask me, or look stuff up. Don't be uninformed.)

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Originally Posted by mikel View Post
[/b]

I know exactly what sexism is, and political parties having "Quotas" Is part of the problem, not the solution. It leaves the women chosen by the parties open to remarks regarding there capabilities regardless of how qualified or capable they may be.
It is the process in general that needs to change, jobs for the boys and the old boy network need to be dismantled for both government and industry to thrive. Jobs on merit, not what schools you attended.
You missed his point, I think- second paragraph is good, but a quotum of any minority (or majority, in women's case) implies that the default would be the other party. It's not about a quotum- rather, about communities of white heterosexual cisgender men looking at all the same around them and hopefully realizing that they should get some other perspectives in there. I don't think many of these organizations have a strict numerical quota or anything, so we can't really turn against that for the purpose of protecting those minorities from uninformed people who aren't the responsibility of the minority to 'fix'.


By the way, genitals are not the ultimate determinant of someone's gender identity, so let's try to get out of this whole "penis = man, vagina = woman" thing. 'Kay? :)
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  #129  
Old 11-19-2014, 12:36 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

Hell-to-the-yes on your last sentence there, Porter.
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  #130  
Old 11-19-2014, 01:37 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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[/b]...political parties having "Quotas" Is part of the problem, not the solution. It leaves the women chosen by the parties open to remarks regarding there capabilities regardless of how qualified or capable they may be.
Yeah, everyone basically agrees with that-- in the US, anyway, quotas are illegal, and no one is arguing in favor of changing that. I'm not so sure about it; the talent is there, and I don't see it as any more arbitrary a way of advancing people than the current system. It's also curious to me that people argue against affirmative action policies because they allegedly cast doubt on the qualifications of people who benefit from them, but they seem to be totally unworried that the current system of white male privilege creates any similar doubts about the abilities of white males.

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It is the process in general that needs to change, jobs for the boys and the old boy network need to be dismantled for both government and industry to thrive. Jobs on merit, not what schools you attended.
That would be great, but there's not a lot of political momentum in that direction-- pretty much the opposite.
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  #131  
Old 11-19-2014, 05:49 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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By the way, genitals are not the ultimate determinant of someone's gender identity, so let's try to get out of this whole "penis = man, vagina = woman" thing. 'Kay? :)
I mean, there's still a physical reality though, right? Would you consider the actual chromosomes involved, or is that just "old thinking" too?

Sorry. I think everyone should literally be able to do/think/say whatever the like as long as they don't hurt others, but sometimes this stuff goes way off the deep end in my mind. While the terms "man" and "woman" can indeed be taken in a philosophical light, I don't think that's how most people regard the terms.
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  #132  
Old 11-24-2014, 04:50 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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But it isn't. So if it isn't in some places, why is it in others?
Maybe you're looking for it or subconciously provoking it.

I remember I used the term 'girl' a while back and that struck a nerve with you - you wanted me to use the word 'woman' because you felt the term was condescending. I believe you might be a bit sensitive.

I've had many ppl question my hobby as a drummer. Some like to hint that it's silly, or childish. I can imagine if I was a girl I'd probably jump to the conclusion that I had a mans hobby.

Who cares. Play your drums.
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  #133  
Old 11-25-2014, 01:51 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

Then there are bona fide dinosaurs, who will hopefully go the same way:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/world/w...er-299426.html
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  #134  
Old 11-25-2014, 01:54 AM
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Maybe you're looking for it or subconciously provoking it.

I remember I used the term 'girl' a while back and that struck a nerve with you - you wanted me to use the word 'woman' because you felt the term was condescending. I believe you might be a bit sensitive.
Dre, you should know that Madge is a scholar of archaic literature. 'Girl' refers to any child in Middle English. I thought this was common knowledge? Of course calling somebody a child when they are a learned scribe is offensive.
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  #135  
Old 11-25-2014, 02:15 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

And according to this article chicks don't dig being called girls.






Except for when they do.

It's all terribly confusing.
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  #136  
Old 11-25-2014, 03:36 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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Maybe you're looking for it or subconciously provoking it.

I remember I used the term 'girl' a while back and that struck a nerve with you - you wanted me to use the word 'woman' because you felt the term was condescending.
Nobody's calling you "boy".
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  #137  
Old 11-25-2014, 03:51 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

There are two sides to this:

1 - The person being addressed should take into account the subtext of how they are being addressed, beyond the terms used. Terms which may be not-their-favourite may be being used without any implication. 'Girl' is a good example.

B - Point 1 aside, if a person doesn't like being addressed in the chosen term, they are of course entirely reasonable if they ask to be addressed differently. 'Girl' is a good example.

Can't we all just get along....guys?
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  #138  
Old 11-25-2014, 05:14 AM
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Then there are bona fide dinosaurs, who will hopefully go the same way:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/world/w...er-299426.html
"Women not equal to men!" - says the article.

I for one, am quite a fan of that fact. Different. Not equal, not one better than the other, just different. Much like one human to another regardless of gender.
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  #139  
Old 11-25-2014, 05:48 AM
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Nobody's calling you "boy".
Although save for the most derogatory and racist uses of the term, no one seems to get their knickers in a knot when anyone talks about being "one of the boys" or I say to my wife "I'm going out with the boys" either.

It's a funny thing regarding the sensitivities around the use of the word "girl". Not long after that last thread where issue was taken with the way in which the word was used, I asked my missus and 5 of her mates who were having a couple of pre-dinner drinks at ours, prior to a self declared "girls night out". Not a single one took exception to the word "girl" being used to represent grown women.......the youngest of which was 36 years old.
One even went as far to say that if women really wanted to 'fly the flag' on inequality, then there were far more pressing and relevant causes through which to do it. Whilst I'm aware that it was a tiny sample size, I still dare say something such as linked in Grea's post was exactly the kind of thing she was referring to.

Until I see some sort of consensus that women world wide are prepared to agree upon Porter, then I'm just not gonna be swayed that it's a cause worth the grief or attention that it's gained here on DW. So far, the largest "rocking of the boat" I've been privy to has occurred on a drum forum. No chance drummers.....even female drummers.....have more pressing issues of inequality to deal with?

I don't want to be one who is considered insensitive against anyone....really I don't. But sometimes I've gotta wonder if efforts could be better focused. This is definitely one such instance. Sometimes, you've gotta pick your fight. Not all of 'em have equal impact.
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  #140  
Old 11-25-2014, 07:11 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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I don't want to be one who is considered insensitive against anyone....really I don't. But sometimes I've gotta wonder if efforts could be better focused. This is definitely one such instance. Sometimes, you've gotta pick your fight. Not all of 'em have equal impact.
I'm with this. Too much political correctness going on in the world today. I bear no malice toward anyone one of any gender or sexual orientation, nor do I accept blame for slights against anyone. I'm not against anyone who hasn't actively attacked me, really. If someone takes offense at my use of language, too bad for them. I know who I am. If someone else is too shortsighted to find out about who I am as an individual, that is their problem. There are truly more areas where we probably agree, so I would prefer to focus on them.

I always feel like saying "If I have offended you, then you must misunderstand me." Anyone I dislike will absolutely know it.
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  #141  
Old 11-25-2014, 07:32 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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Dre, you should know that Madge is a scholar of archaic literature. 'Girl' refers to any child in Middle English. I thought this was common knowledge? Of course calling somebody a child when they are a learned scribe is offensive.

You mean we should know archaic literature, Middle English, or that Madge is an expert in both? Neither can be considered common knowledge on a drum site.

Though I'd agree use of 'girl' for a grown woman usually does not go over well.
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Old 11-25-2014, 08:22 AM
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I believe you might be a bit sensitive.
Sensitive to sexism in the same way as I'm sensitive to racism, for example.

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I always feel like saying "If I have offended you, then you must misunderstand me." Anyone I dislike will absolutely know it.
However, I'll take this, and I apologise to anybody I've snapped at.

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Until I see some sort of consensus that women world wide are prepared to agree upon Porter, then I'm just not gonna be swayed that it's a cause worth the grief or attention that it's gained here on DW.
A journey of a thousand miles, and all that!

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But sometimes I've gotta wonder if efforts could be better focused. This is definitely one such instance. Sometimes, you've gotta pick your fight. Not all of 'em have equal impact.
This particular thread had nothing to do with the word "girl" until now, and to talk about it is to go off on a tangent which is worthy of a separate thread and could potentially run and run untiil DW collapsed under its weight. And I don't think any of us want that!
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Old 11-25-2014, 08:56 AM
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  #143  
Old 11-25-2014, 09:01 AM
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You mean we should know archaic literature, Middle English, or that Madge is an expert in both? Neither can be considered common knowledge on a drum site.

Though I'd agree use of 'girl' for a grown woman usually does not go over well.
I didn't call Madge a girl though, we were talking about Hannah Ford or the pretty French drummer, it was definitely a girl in my language.
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  #144  
Old 11-25-2014, 09:17 AM
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You mean we should know archaic literature, Middle English, or that Madge is an expert in both? Neither can be considered common knowledge on a drum site.

Though I'd agree use of 'girl' for a grown woman usually does not go over well.
You're absolutely right that everybody should be familiar with the etymologies derived from Middle English!

I think your sarcasm detector might be a bit wonky mate.
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  #145  
Old 11-25-2014, 09:24 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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I think if we're encouraging a discussion based around the concept of sexism, some lateral discussion on what it means and to whom, is not completely out of order either.
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I didn't call Madge a girl though, we were talking about Hannah Ford or the pretty French drummer, it was definitely a girl in my language.
My take on the "girl" thing is that while relatively trivial in itself, it has the potential to be the tip of an iceberg.

It's an example of the casual everyday sexism that is so ubiquitous it's barely even noticeable.

But when it's pointed out to people, some (not all and maybe not even many) will say "Oh I didn't realise, but I do now", and that causes them to examine their perceptions and language a little more.

So the next time they use a word other than "girl", when "girl" might have been expected, it might cause their audience to wonder why they didn't use it, and to examine their own perceptions and language a little more.

This is subtle stuff but "insidious filtering" like this can work for positive ends as I have described. It works jolly well for negative ends, certainly. I admit that I'm often not very subtle, which fault probably does more harm than good.
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Old 11-25-2014, 09:56 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

Sorry Madge, looks like I deleted that last post while you were in the middle of replying to it. I'd had a couple of quiet ales after work and wasn't convinced it was reading the way I'd intended it to, so opted to get rid of it altogether.
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  #147  
Old 11-25-2014, 10:13 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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Sorry Madge, looks like I deleted that last post while you were in the middle of replying to it. I'd had a couple of quiet ales after work and wasn't convinced it was reading the way I'd intended it to, so opted to get rid of it altogether.
You won't catch me casting the first stone, I can assure you ;)
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Old 11-25-2014, 10:42 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

I use girl in the singular in a completely different way to girls in the plural. "A night out with the girls" in no way has a derogatory aspect to it, whereas to use "girl drummers" as a collective description covering all age ranges, potentially has.
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Old 11-25-2014, 11:53 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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I use girl in the singular in a completely different way to girls in the plural. "A night out with the girls" in no way has a derogatory aspect to it, whereas to use "girl drummers" as a collective description covering all age ranges, potentially has.
You could argue that even using the term "Female drummer" Is not PC. Surely its just drummer? But, again, If there were two drummers and you picked one out as your favorite player, and were asked which one, Its much easier to say the guy or the female/woman, rather than... the dark haired one or the tall one or the one in the T shirt with the slightly longer sleeves than the other one.

Lets be realistic about this, some of us are male some are female, If PC gets to the point where its not acceptable to mention gender, In any situation, we have gone way too far.

Sexism has no place in society but we still need ways to describe an individual. I am bald, If I am described as such so I can be recognised in a group, so what? If someone in a passing car screams "F**k of baldy" at me in the street, for no reason, then that is a different matter. Its about context and intent.
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Old 11-25-2014, 12:50 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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I use girl in the singular in a completely different way to girls in the plural. "A night out with the girls" in no way has a derogatory aspect to it, whereas to use "girl drummers" as a collective description covering all age ranges, potentially has.
That's a good point, Andy.

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Lets be realistic about this, some of us are male some are female, If PC gets to the point where its not acceptable to mention gender, In any situation, we have gone way too far.
Of course. But there is a question of relevance - "male nurse", "female drummer" - and of the terminology.

This thread began as a plea to everybody who read it, to try to be aware of sexist attitudes that sometimes prevail and to neither contribute to them nor condone them, whether explicitly or implicitly. That's pretty much it.
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Old 11-25-2014, 01:56 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

What I see is that women are still trying to define themselves in this modern age. Men have always been men, but women see equality as power. Women, it seems, more than anything, want to feel empowered in this world with men that they've fought so hard to contain.
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Old 11-25-2014, 02:45 PM
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Men have always been men, but women see equality as power. Women, it seems, more than anything, want to feel empowered in this world with men that they've fought so hard to contain.
I see it somewhat differently. I view equality as justice. I would also argue that it's men who have fought, and succeeded, to contain women.
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Old 11-25-2014, 03:00 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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That's a good point, Andy.



Of course. But there is a question of relevance - "male nurse", "female drummer" - and of the terminology.

This thread began as a plea to everybody who read it, to try to be aware of sexist attitudes that sometimes prevail and to neither contribute to them nor condone them, whether explicitly or implicitly. That's pretty much it.
I dont see what is wrong with "Male nurse". Nurses tended to be female, by and large, until fairly recently. Also, some women might not wish to be tended to by a male nurse so making the distinction seems reasonable.

And, as I also pointed out in my previous post, not sure If you are agreeing or not, It's all about relevance and context.
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Old 11-25-2014, 03:04 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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I see it somewhat differently. I view equality as justice. I would also argue that it's men who have fought, and succeeded, to contain women.
The perceptions between men and women truly are like Venus and Mars.
Interesting.....
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Old 11-25-2014, 03:20 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

I'm another who hasn't really experienced sexism for many, many years - until playing in bands. In our professional and business life it isn't tolerated and there are repercussions for any dinosaurs who still persist in it. They can think what they like, can't change that, but they can't express it or act on it. It's been systematically stamped out by anti-discrimination legislation which in the UK started in the mid 70s.

In a band situation, no. There's no job security, or anti-discrimination policies, or formal complaints procedures. My experience is that yer average pub band is the last resting place of discrimination. Whaddya gonna do? You can't win: if you object you're just branded as "over sensitive", or bolshie, or lacking a sense of humour, and you just reinforce their existing attitudes. Typical bloody woman in fact.

I've recently left yet another band. I'm sick of it all, and totally disillusioned about the whole band thing. It's not that my experiences were all overtly nasty, I'm just fed up with being constantly reminded that I'm a woman first and a band member second. I've always been a bit of a tomboy, I can change a tyre and handle an electric drill. I was a lawyer (and a construction lawyer too, pretty much a male dominated field). Not a female lawyer. Just a lawyer. No-one made a comical fuss about what sort of mood I was in this evening, or asked if I was OK gigging two nights running because "it can be tiring". Or whether I was OK to drive an hour to the gig. Or complimented me on my punctuality because "women are always late".

In my last band I heard these comments about the female singer too. She left, surprise surprise. The male singer who replaced her, who couldn't play any instrument, couldn't even shake a tambourine in time, sent me a lovely email saying goodbye and "I think you're a good drummer". Kindly meant, but why does he think I need his validation?

I didn't expect this when I first joined a band. I've been in four, and had this with all of them in one form or another. I'm a grandmother and way beyond causing the sort of difficulties that I'd heard about with female band members -the sexual tension sort of difficulties. I just wanted to be one of the boys, doing the job I was engaged to do, but I've come to the conclusion it's just not possible. Because in a band situation there are none of the barriers to inappropriate comments or behaviour (even the kindly meant variety) that are no longer tolerated in the workplace.

Sorry, had to get that off my chest. I am still sad about leaving that band. But all that stuff just wore me down. The whole thing just depresses the life out of me.
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Old 11-25-2014, 03:27 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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I dont see what is wrong with "Male nurse". Nurses tended to be female, by and large, until fairly recently. Also, some women might not wish to be tended to by a male nurse so making the distinction seems reasonable.

And, as I also pointed out in my previous post, not sure If you are agreeing or not, It's all about relevance and context.
Absolutely agree 100% about relevance and context, but seeing it differently :)

Re "male nurse" - if we say "teacher", "lawyer" or "mortgage adviser", without any gender-specific prefix, why can't we just say "nurse"? Unless there is a particular reason why the person's gender may be relevant, and of course there are times when it may, I don't understand why it should be mentioned. We don't refer to ethnicity, colour, religion or sexual orientation as a matter of course.
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Old 11-25-2014, 03:40 PM
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Absolutely agree 100% about relevance and context, but seeing it differently :)

Re "male nurse" - if we say "teacher", "lawyer" or "mortgage adviser", without any gender-specific prefix, why can't we just say "nurse"? Unless there is a particular reason why the person's gender may be relevant, and of course there are times when it may, I don't understand why it should be mentioned. We don't refer to ethnicity, colour, religion or sexual orientation as a matter of course.
For the very reason I stated. A woman may not wish to be given a bed bath by a male nurse, so using the term gives the individual the choice, If the are that modest.
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Old 11-25-2014, 03:42 PM
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Sorry, had to get that off my chest. I am still sad about leaving that band. But all that stuff just wore me down. The whole thing just depresses the life out of me.
Daisy, I'm so sorry to hear this, but I do thank you for saying your piece. I can get a bit ranty (yes, really), so I, and others too I'm sure, greatly appreciate what you wrote, and the way you wrote it. I wish you hadn't needed to though.
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Old 11-25-2014, 03:44 PM
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For the very reason I stated. A woman may not wish to be given a bed bath by a male nurse, so using the term gives the individual the choice, If the are that modest.
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Unless there is a particular reason why the person's gender may be relevant, and of course there are times when it may, I don't understand why it should be mentioned.
Let's not argue when we aren't disagreeing with each other!
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Old 11-25-2014, 04:40 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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Sorry, had to get that off my chest. I am still sad about leaving that band. But all that stuff just wore me down. The whole thing just depresses the life out of me.
Daisy, it really troubles me that you believe your experiences mean it's not possible to be in a band on equal terms, or there will always be unwelcome consideration paid in respect to your gender. Unfortunately, the likelihood is that you may be right, but it's not a given - far from it. There are players out there, many players actually, who really don't operate on the level you describe. They're findable, so please don't give up something you clearly otherwise enjoy.

Madge, just to throw my piece in on appropriate use of gender label. I'm an anti PC guy generally, especially when it's PC for PC's sake, but there are times when a gender prefix is completely warranted, even if it can be taken more than one way. Medical interface is one such example, but only when the gender of the nurse/doctor, etc could potentially be a reasonable choice issue for the patient. In some ways, & especially for intimate procedures, I think sexuality is relevant too, but getting that on the prefix list would be blocked by the very PC environment designed to promote equality.

Anyone who really knows me will realise that my anti PC views come from someone who is vehemently opposed to blind discrimination in all it's forms, & that includes both positive & negative discrimination.
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