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  #1  
Old 11-16-2014, 09:03 PM
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Default Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

Since I joined DW, we've had a fair few discussions on the subject of sexism in drumming.

Sexism simply doesn't exist in my real life. I'm a director of the company I co-own with Mr Madge. Many of our clients are women in very senior positions in large organisations. They are, quite rightly, treated with consideration and respect by the people who work for them.

In the past 6 months, possibly contemporaneously with my feeling that I have "come of age" as a drummer, I've encountered way way WAY more sexism than I ever have before. It appalls me. How can it even happen?? What century do these people live in, and how can they possibly, POSSIBLY think that it is ok? And the worst thing is that I am undoubtedly the thin end of the wedge: I shudder to think what real, successful women drummers have had to endure.

I've always been taken seriously on DW, from my firstish stuttering single-strokes to jamming songs I've never heard, with people I don't know. Therefore I am asking all DW'ers - yes, YOU, whether you're one of my good friends or not - to think about what is appropriate for people to say to you, your Significant Other, your daughter or your mother, and if it isn't right, to challenge it, and change it.

Thanks :)
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Old 11-16-2014, 09:10 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

Are you talking about encountering sexism here on the forum from members? Or sexism in general when you tell people you play the drums?
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Old 11-16-2014, 09:19 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

Yeah, it's a real thing, and it's everywhere.
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Old 11-16-2014, 09:22 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
Are you talking about encountering sexism here on the forum from members? Or sexism in general when you tell people you play the drums?
No, not here, not at all - as if I wouldn't shout about it to the mods!

A lot more to do with people ignoring me when I want to buy something, and behaving in a way that I'm sure they wouldn't if I weren't a drummer.
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Old 11-16-2014, 09:23 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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Yeah, it's a real thing, and it's everywhere.
But it isn't. So if it isn't in some places, why is it in others?
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Old 11-16-2014, 09:23 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

What Bo said. Please explain. Where and when are you being discriminated against? then we can have a proper informed discussion.
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Old 11-16-2014, 09:25 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

Magenta,

I don't have anything profound to say here, I'm no wordsmith, but whatever events you've encountered to inspire you to post this is, to put it very mildly, regrettable.

As a man, I cannot imagine what it's like to walk in your shoes or even condescend to pretend that I do. It's outrageous how humans are willing to mistreat one another.

We must all strive for a world where we are evaluated by the content of our character, or where applying our trade by our skill set. I can't add better than your closing statement; if it's not an acceptable way for your wife, daughter, mother or sister to be spoken to or treated, don't passively allow it.

Hoping for better times, Magenta.
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Old 11-16-2014, 09:30 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
Yeah, it's a real thing, and it's everywhere.
Certainly in many workplaces, and in my workplace, even though I work in a so called environment of 'higher-education'.
Unfortunately, its generational, and in some ways (like racism) will take some generations of enlightenment and weeding out of ignorance to instil permanent progressive change.
You are fortunate to not have it in what you call your 'real life', for many women do....at least what I'm exposed to.
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Old 11-16-2014, 09:34 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

I think it has something to do with the fact that for so long drumming was about 99.99% male oriented. When I was raised in the 70's and 80's there was about ONE female drummer and her name was Karen Carpenter! Other than that, seeing a female drummer was a complete rarity.

So as a result, drumming became prominently male oriented. In the past ten years though it's become more balanced, and that's a great thing! There's just so many amazing female drummers amongst us.
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Old 11-16-2014, 09:36 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

Agreed that sexism is still prevalent in most musician circles, based both on the genre, and especially the instrument played.

Is there anything unusual about a female keyboardist? No.

Female Guitarist? Not so much.

Female drummer? Yep, that raises a lot of eyebrows!

Even in an orchestra, where the M-F ratio is more balanced, you'll see more female string players than horn players, as if strings are somehow more feminine than a trumpet. But, still almost no gals in the percussion section.

As for the genre, how many gals are playing in rock or metal bands? Unless it's specifically an all-female band, there are only a couple of mixed groups.

Beyond acknowledging that the problem exists, I don't have an answer. Males in the business just need to get over it and judge everyone on how well they actually play.

And how well their jeans fit. :)

Bermuda
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Old 11-16-2014, 09:38 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

Another interesting discussion on this would be that, certainly some women know there is sexism, yet they don't complain about it and get along within systems that have it. How do those women deal with that?

I've talked about this with my womanly avatar and she knows it exists, yet she seems to make use of it to her advantage, and she sorta thrives within it. Do other women who are offended by sexism look at her as some kind of a sell-out? I haven't figured that one out yet, and I'm not sure the woman cares, frankly. It's like reverse-insidiousness, isn't it?

But I get it, sexism is everywhere. Heck, you only have to see how many times "girl drummer" videos are viewed on YouTube compared to "boy drummer" videos. What about that kind of sexism? Unless you're of the Vinnie Colaiuta talent-level, your videos are not watched as much as the girl double-bass drummer wearing high heels. Why is that?
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  #12  
Old 11-16-2014, 09:48 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek View Post
As a man, I cannot imagine what it's like to walk in your shoes or even condescend to pretend that I do.
Oh, it's ok, it's no more your fault than mine! But I do thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by opentune View Post
You are fortunate to not have it in what you call your 'real life', for many women do....at least what I'm exposed to.
Shit, really? Not that I don't believe you, but still ... shit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillRayDrums View Post
I think it has something to do with the fact that for so long drumming was about 99.99% male oriented.
What I'm reluctantly on the receiving end of, is absolutely this. Nobody in my real life, who values their kneecaps, would offer their opinion about my appearance/my ability to do my job/ whatever. The minute I'm a drummer, I'm fair game.
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Old 11-16-2014, 09:51 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
Another interesting discussion on this would be that, certainly some women know there is sexism, yet they don't complain about it and get along within systems that have it. How do those women deal with that?

I've talked about this with my womanly avatar and she knows it exists, yet she seems to make use of it to her advantage, and she sorta thrives within it. Do other women who are offended by sexism look at her as some kind of a sell-out? I haven't figured that one out yet, and I'm not sure the woman cares, frankly. It's like reverse-insidiousness, isn't it?

But I get it, sexism is everywhere. Heck, you only have to see how many times "girl drummer" videos are viewed on YouTube compared to "boy drummer" videos. What about that kind of sexism? Unless you're of the Vinnie Colaiuta talent-level, your videos are not watched as much as the girl double-bass drummer wearing high heels. Why is that?





And some of those "girl drummer" videos are titled "The best 5 (or whatever number) girl drummers in the world" and you won't see Kimberly Thompson, Cindy Blackman -Santana nor Terri Lynn Carrington , just to name a few, among them. Strictly "Youtube stars". As if they've discovered some sort of an anomaly.
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Old 11-16-2014, 09:52 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

Not being sexist myself I have no idea why anyone is a bigot. As far as I am concerned If someone is good enough, for anything, they are by default old enough, man/woman enough, big enough, etc for the job.

Why any band, to keep it to music, would turn down the best player because of sex, race or any other reason is simply beyond me. Why chose to settle for second best? Just foolish, and there loss.
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  #15  
Old 11-16-2014, 09:54 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

I have three daughters so, of course, I want women to rule the world. Sadly for my selfish reasons of vesting my immortality in my offspring, but is that wrong? My wife also supports me, made more than I ever have, and is way smarter than I. I know my place on the totem pole of life. LOL. Actually my oldest daughter makes more than I ever did too. Dang. But there is discrimination as my wife use to work for a Medical school and she made less than males of the same position and title.
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Old 11-16-2014, 09:55 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

Sexism, racism, ageism, and all the other ism's will continue to exist as long as there are assholes among and within us. Basically... forever. All we can do is teach our children well and lead by example.

I had the strange fortune of being raised by parents that were a bit unconventional philosophically, and it has put me at odds with the typical affirmative-action crowd. Rather than being taught that we're all human beings and equals, I was taught that women were men, blacks were white, etc. Their point was that we (as humans) struggle with the concept of equality. We're stupid and try to quantify things that need not be considered. We can achieve the same goals and sidestep the problematic bits if we trick our intellect into skipping the quantification and evaluations.

Women are Men. Any argument to the contrary just doesn't work with me.

I get a lot of shit for my beliefs, but I'm not entirely convinced that it's a bad way to live.
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  #17  
Old 11-16-2014, 09:56 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

[quote=Bo Eder;1306960 Do other women who are offended by sexism look at her as some kind of a sell-out? /QUOTE]

Prima facie, yes. But not necessarily.
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Old 11-16-2014, 10:06 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

This can sort of work both ways.

On sexism is musician circles, I find that in a semi-professional environment of musicians all types of discrimination can flourish a lot more than other environments. It's an insecurity thing, it's a business thing and results of individuals from both sexes having a history of less than fortunate experiences.

It's true that there might be male musicians who have unfounded negative attitudes towards female musicians. It is also true however, that many female musicians get more attention than is reflected in their musicianship. Not anything new in the entertainment indsutry really, though. That goes for both sexes. It's the entertainment industry. It's the nature of the beast.
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Old 11-16-2014, 10:15 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magenta View Post

A lot more to do with people ignoring me when I want to buy something, and behaving in a way that I'm sure they wouldn't if I weren't a drummer.
Its not you, or what you represent (the divine feminine), its the person.

Feeling offended by perceived sexism, racism, handicap etc. is just feeding the vibration. If you offend someone by being a woman drummer, don't let their vibration influence you, its (usually) them not you who doesn't understand.

There is no sexism, racism etc. these are just blockage names for a misunderstanding, and herein would be a situation you'd truly want to (try and) change people, on the upside of 'you can't change anyone'.
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Old 11-16-2014, 10:21 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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Originally Posted by Les Ismore View Post
Its not you, or what you represent (the divine feminine), its the person.

Feeling offended by perceived sexism, racism, handicap etc. is just feeding the vibration. If you offend someone by being a woman drummer, don't let their vibration influence you, its (usually) them not you who doesn't understand.
Chicken, I don't give a cat's arse who I offend, given that I don't set out to offend anybody.

But if somebody you'd never even heard of made suggestive remarks to you, based SOLELY on your gender and the fact that you are a drummer, how would you feel?
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Old 11-16-2014, 10:55 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

Gosh Magenta it reminds me of my eldest brother who was congratulating my wife for completing medical school. He was trying to give her a compliment but his chauvinistic attitude was like "Wow little lady you were able to complete medical school and I am so proud of your achievement for a "woman"-like she is a glorified nurse rather than she was number one in her class-some males hated her for it. I had an indian friend my wife and I would water ski with during Summers while she was in med school. One day he asked "how can you stand being married to a women who is smarter and will make more money than you?" I looked at him-"Are you freaking kidding me? " Dang proud I am.
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Old 11-16-2014, 11:51 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

In every area of life there are people who have not been raised well.
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Old 11-16-2014, 11:59 PM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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Originally Posted by GetAgrippa View Post
I had an indian friend my wife and I would water ski with during Summers while she was in med school. One day he asked "how can you stand being married to a women who is smarter and will make more money than you?"
What does his being Indian have to do with the comment he made, or anything? If it was coming from his stereotypical cultural/societal point of view, would the same comment from someone of another culture have registered differently with you?

Just sayin'... see how easily things slip out? :)

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  #24  
Old 11-17-2014, 12:08 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

In the world of Bagpipes and Pipe Bands, there have been numerous changes.

Centuries ago, if a woman were caught playing the Great Highland Bagpipes, she would have had her hands cut off. To be fair, anyone caught playing the pipes in Scotland in 1746 would be hung, drawn & quartered, as it was considered an instrument of war by the British. Eventually, the British incorporated Pipes into regimental units, but you really didn't see women play pipes for a long time.

Fast forward up to the 50's and later, you'd find "ladies bands", but I think it took a bit longer for women to be integrated into high level competition bands (60's & early 70's) and military (early 80's). I might be off on those dates; there could be earlier examples. But you really started to see an explosion of women in Pipe Bands starting in the mid to late '90s.

From what I see, bands have close to 50/50 split of men/women at the mid and highest levels of competition. Most of the flourishing tenor drum sections seem to be dominated by women. But most of the Pipe Majors and Drum Sergeants tend to be men. And most of the top prize winning players in solo bagpipes and snare tend to be men.

But if you look at the young players coming up today, especially in junior bands, it seems pretty evenly split among the best players.
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Old 11-17-2014, 12:20 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

DCI is loaded with very talented drummers from both genders.



...Except for those Madison Scouts.
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  #26  
Old 11-17-2014, 12:27 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

Nah Bermuda I was just awestruck he would ask me such a question. He actually has a family pre-arranged marriage so he had no say in his choice of wife. Which I didn't realize that was still common. Since that time I had several students who also had pre-arranged marriages. Gee, I didn't mean to imply a "racial" overtone-just a cultural one. Guess just remembering the odd conversation and his view from another culture. But I see how it sounds that way. Besides I'm a biological scientist there is no thing as "race" only gene pools which don't associate with race nor skin tones.

Last edited by GetAgrippa; 11-17-2014 at 01:12 AM.
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Old 11-17-2014, 12:37 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

You should never have encountered that, Madge. It's appalling. We are supposed to be civilized.

If I might offer a suggestion, when encountering such staggering douchebaggery please consider bringing to mind this very apropos quote:

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Old 11-17-2014, 12:38 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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DCI is loaded with very talented drummers from both genders.



...Except for those Madison Scouts.
And the Cavaliers. Don't forget about them ;)
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  #29  
Old 11-17-2014, 12:54 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

I know there is sexism in drumming and in music in general. And there will be as long as there are more male drummers than female drummers. (And especially more “famous” male drummers.) My daughter tried to be a drummer. They had her playing cymbals in the marching band. Which was OK. But I think they never gave her the chance to move up to snare drum. It is a shame!

If the sexism is related to people criticizing how you play, Then maybe there is something else to consider here. It has to do with music in general. There is an unwritten rule about being critical of someone else’s art. The rule is do not do it. Sometimes even if you are asked for your opinion, don’t do it. Music is art. Most artists and musicians do not take criticism very well.

The other day a drummer friend of mine told me that I had played a particular reggae song with the wrong rhythm pattern. I kept the beat just fine, but the rhythm pattern was wrong. I had to put my ego in my pocket for a minute and listen to him. I went home to listen to the song and found out he was right. But initially I wanted to disagree with him only because I am a typical musician and I carry my ego on my sleeve. As you well know, as musicians it is hard for us to accept criticism of our playing.

It is hard enough to take criticism as musicians but if you are female and it is coming from a male, then it could be interpreted as sexism when it is not sexism. All I am saying is just be aware that we as musicians have to always keep our egos in check. And in the music business there are huge uncontrolled egos everywhere.


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Old 11-17-2014, 01:54 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

Is it really sexism or just criticism?

I think musicians get criticized a lot.
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Old 11-17-2014, 03:10 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

my response to this sensitive topic is that....well, the world and the people in it are not ideal. Throughout our lives we will be confronted with others that may be lacking in social skills, having different opinions, espousing a value set that we or many disagree with....that's how it is.

folks come along that don't care what anothers frame of reference or opinions may be...and they may even get enjoyment pushing buttons when they encounter sensitivity to a certain belief or set of beliefs or what have you.

just roll with it and make your own way in your own vision...the world is not ideal. You will not change those you don't agree with or that don't agree with you.
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Old 11-17-2014, 03:24 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

Hope I dont offend you Magenta,I'm a dude looking outside the fish bowl so to speak.

I got really pissed off when my x-GF,her little sister took guitar class in high school and all the boys diss'd her.It's not about gender,its about playing well.

She's probably a better guitarist than those guys today.
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Old 11-17-2014, 03:57 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

I find feminists aren't very good when it comes to being inclusive. They generally like to pick on social outcasts, and do very little to actually address things that impact them, at higher levels in society, in fact they generally seek to ensure that higher levels of society remain stable and intact, which is sort of counter to advocating for genuine change.
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Old 11-17-2014, 04:06 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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Therefore I am asking all DW'ers - yes, YOU, whether you're one of my good friends or not...
I won't reply to that question, you probably know the answer anyway...

... look on the bright side Madge, you could have been blonde as well, can you imagine? a blonde female drummer?










... joking aside, what's the saying? ... don't judge a book by its cover... it's what's inside that's important.

This is what Cindy Blackman said about gender on drumming, it should make you feel better Madge.

"The gender question is not even worth bringing up because the drums have got nothing to do with gender, I'm there because I love to play music. And I'm in support of anyone who wants to play the instrument. I wouldn't care if Art Blakey was pink with polka dots and wearing a tutu. I wouldn't care if Tony Williams was green. There are people who have opinions about whatever and whoever, in terms of gender, in terms of race and weight, hairstyle, religion. But to me, your personality influences what you play and what you do, but everything else is for you to develop and to nourish and to take further, and that's where I'm at. In terms of my goals, me being a female drummer has nothing to do with anything except for the fact that I wear bras and panties and guys don't."
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Old 11-17-2014, 04:08 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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Originally Posted by Les Ismore View Post
... There is no sexism, racism etc. these are just blockage names for a misunderstanding, and herein would be a situation you'd truly want to (try and) change people, on the upside of 'you can't change anyone'.
Sorry Les, but this is just plain flat out wrong.

Any time you hear somebody expressing an opinion that relates to a group, rather than the individual, you're hearing an 'ism at work.
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Old 11-17-2014, 04:34 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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Originally Posted by Magenta View Post
Chicken, I don't give a cat's arse who I offend, given that I don't set out to offend anybody.

But if somebody you'd never even heard of made suggestive remarks to you, based SOLELY on your gender and the fact that you are a drummer, how would you feel?
Did anybody catch this? "Chicken"...Not very PC and could easily be misconstrued.( ?) and "I don't give a cats arse who I offend, given that I don't set out to offend anybody." As if that makes it ok to offend? So Magenta maybe the one(s) offending you didn't set out to offend either? Did that make what they said right? Only you can be the judge of that.

Yes, clear violations of good taste need to be confronted but as we see above sometimes intentions can be misconstrued or overplayed. We simply live in a society that thrives on PC grievances. It'll never end until "we" let it end. Not trolling, nor trying to overthink, but IMHO it's better to forgive and forget. You know, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and that person sure wouldn't and couldn't be me. Hope this helps, as that is my intention.
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Old 11-17-2014, 05:19 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

...and may I just say:

Girls.

They're so cute when they're cross!
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Old 11-17-2014, 05:34 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood Jim View Post
If the sexism is related to people criticizing how you play.
It wasn't. It was behaviour, which I very much doubt would have happened in the context of my "normal life".

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Originally Posted by Mad About Drums View Post
... look on the bright side Madge, you could have been blonde as well, can you imagine? a blonde female drummer?
Nothing down for Emma then! (I am blonde sometimes, btw.)

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Originally Posted by Skyking View Post
Did anybody catch this? "Chicken"...Not very PC and could easily be misconstrued.( ?) and "I don't give a cats arse who I offend, given that I don't set out to offend anybody." As if that makes it ok to offend? So Magenta maybe the one(s) offending you didn't set out to offend either? Did that make what they said right? Only you can be the judge of that.
No no no, context is everything. In this case, the context was the postulation that my being a female drummer offended some people. If it does, then yes I don't give a toss. As for "chicken", I accept that it's a term that could be lost in translation, in which case please refer to my earlier statement about not intending to offend.

Now, I realise that I know what happened and you don't, and I don't want to share the prurient details, but please trust me when I say that it was way more than giving or taking offence.
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Old 11-17-2014, 05:38 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

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Originally Posted by JustJames View Post
...and may I just say:

Girls.

They're so cute when they're cross!
James, you are my hero. End of.
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Old 11-17-2014, 06:22 AM
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Default Re: Possibly my first serious thread. Sexism.

Internet adoration right back, Madge!


I figured the results of my post would have been pretty clear in one direction or another direction.
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Old 11-17-2014, 06:46 AM
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