What if....?

I had thought about this for some years now and I was a little disappointed they didn't opt to do this.

I'm sure we've all seen the Buddy Rich Memorial Concert videos by now, where drum stars came out to honor Buddy by playing with his band back in the late '80s/early '90s. A number of drum stars have participated and the one that sticks out for me (anyway) is the one with Gadd, Weckl, Colaiuta, and Bellson, Chambers, Bissonette. Great performances by all who participated and it was great.

But what if the organizers said, when the talent arrived, "there you go" and on the stage would be three Buddy Rich drum kits instead of what they normally play? Or better yet, three 4-piece kits with just a ride, crash, and hats? Maybe a cowbell added in.

I'm sure Bellson would have had no problem at all. And maybe the others wouldn't have had a problem either, but I think it would have been quite a refreshing thing to see! I ponder if that event alone, done that way, would have altered the drum market! To see your hero tear it up on a 4-piece kit with one of the best big bands in the world would have been inspiring to see!

And I'm the first one to say the drum kit has got to be the coolest instrument on the planet - just because you can configure it however you want. If you want three bass drums, no problem! 13 cymbals? Be my guest! But part of me remembers what I've learned from the masters: "If you can't say it on a bass, snare, a couple of cymbals and toms, then you might as well go home" That phrase has stuck with me my whole life. And many of us play small kits out of practicality because we don't want to move around all that stuff on our own, yet we participate in discussions here on the merits of the large drum kit versus the merits of the small kit and although most of us know it's the drummer and not the drums, there still exist this vibe between players of big kits and those that play small ones (or maybe I'm seeing something that isn't really there).

I would kill to see Dennis Chambers rip it up on a 4-piece....it would certainly end alot of discussions on whether or not we should add this or that to our kits, eh?

That would be absolutely AWESOME!!!! I would really love to see how that played out.

I got in an argument with these guys the other night after a show. They seemed to think I was limited by my four piece with only hats, crash, and a ride. I said I didn't feel limited in the slightest, to which they replied "once you get good enough on that, you'll buy a bigger kit." In other words-better drummers have bigger kits.

I argued for awhile with these guys (neither of which were musicians) but they wouldn't budge. One mentioned how he had "been to so many shows man, trust me I know what I'm talking about." It was an amicable disagreement, but it really pissed me off.

A lot of non-drummers truly think that kit size directly correlates to skill. I often play at my most creative when I have the least options of drums and cymbals to hit. Look at Benny Greb on a four piece kit...limited? AGH!!!!

Sorry if this is getting off topic, but this has been pissing me off lately.

Amen Funky! This nonsense of you must be a great player because you have a huge kit, is total BS. I'd much rather see a skilled drummer on a 4 piece with hats, ride, and a crash than some dweeb on a 15 piece kit that has no skill. At a jam last year I had the misfortune of meeting up with a drummer who insisted double bass was the way to go and all the toms you could get, yet this guy only could manage to do sixtenths starting from one end of the toms to the other. Every fill was like that and it sounded horrible.

I agree, a smaller kit is def where it's at.

most of the people (that I know personally) who have big kits are awful at playing drums. I can't say I get pissed off about it, just shred harder than them dudes. the easiet way to shut people up is do something they can't.

it would be very interesting (and I would like to see) said footage if it ever happened.

Bo Eder said:

I had thought about this for some years now and I was a little disappointed they didn't opt to do this.

I'm sure we've all seen the Buddy Rich Memorial Concert videos by now, where drum stars came out to honor Buddy by playing with his band back in the late '80s/early '90s. A number of drum stars have participated and the one that sticks out for me (anyway) is the one with Gadd, Weckl, Colaiuta, and Bellson, Chambers, Bissonette. Great performances by all who participated and it was great.

But what if the organizers said, when the talent arrived, "there you go" and on the stage would be three Buddy Rich drum kits instead of what they normally play? Or better yet, three 4-piece kits with just a ride, crash, and hats? Maybe a cowbell added in.

I'm sure Bellson would have had no problem at all. And maybe the others wouldn't have had a problem either, but I think it would have been quite a refreshing thing to see! I ponder if that event alone, done that way, would have altered the drum market! To see your hero tear it up on a 4-piece kit with one of the best big bands in the world would have been inspiring to see!

And I'm the first one to say the drum kit has got to be the coolest instrument on the planet - just because you can configure it however you want. If you want three bass drums, no problem! 13 cymbals? Be my guest! But part of me remembers what I've learned from the masters: "If you can't say it on a bass, snare, a couple of cymbals and toms, then you might as well go home" That phrase has stuck with me my whole life. And many of us play small kits out of practicality because we don't want to move around all that stuff on our own, yet we participate in discussions here on the merits of the large drum kit versus the merits of the small kit and although most of us know it's the drummer and not the drums, there still exist this vibe between players of big kits and those that play small ones (or maybe I'm seeing something that isn't really there).

I would kill to see Dennis Chambers rip it up on a 4-piece....it would certainly end alot of discussions on whether or not we should add this or that to our kits, eh?

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Hey Bo,

That is a very interesting thought. What better way to honor the legacy of BR than to play with his band on his style of drums. Marine Pearl and all.

Oh, and no double bass pedals.

I have no doubt that they all could do it, but it would be fun to see what we would get. I remember watching Neil Peart play on a red sparkle 4 piece, and feeling he was a little out of his element. Not bad but not great.

-Rob

Hey Bo, interesting topic.

I remember when the original two tape set came out (Gadd, Weckl, Colaiuta, and Bellson, Chambers, Bissonette), I was working in a drum shop and we were playing these tapes on the TV we had all the time.

Most people were pretty amazed at what they say, and the tapes sold well. I bought the Bellson, Chambers, Bissonette.

But several of the older guys who were big into the swing era made comments about how the playing was great, but inappropiate for the style of music.

I remember one guy in particular said "look, I like ketchup on my hamburger, but I don't put ketchup on my steak, and that's what these guys are doing".

In the next round, Neil Peart did play with a 4 pc kit. It was a pretty unmemorable performance, and Peart himself hates what he did (which lead him to producing the Burning for Buddy CDs, because he himself was so disappointed in his own performance at the memorial concert).

In the 2008 edition, some guys did use set ups closer to what you're talking about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2klHw0yGH9s

Although not all. And of course, some of those guys (like Chad Smith) use a one up two down anyway.

Wow bo, You're gonna start a riot around here!
I like your idea.
You're right, They all should have played Buddy kits.

On the Neil Peart issue - I think you're right that it was a performance he'd rather forget. But I had to give props to the man for attempting it - I think he was the only one to say publicly how hard his part of the show was. Not to mention the pressure on him from his fan base. The man just pulled up his boot straps and went right out there and, you know...

I don't recall if that was before he went off to study with Freddy Gruber or after, but Neil seems to be a much smoother player now. It is nice to see people who could totally skate on their laurels actually change the way they play for the better.

Sorry to have started a somewhat heated discussion. Like I said, I'm sure any of those guys could play on a 4-piece kit, it just would've been nice to see them obviously thinking outside of their box!

funkytomtom said:

"once you get good enough on that, you'll buy a bigger kit." In other words-better drummers have bigger kits.

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Spoken like true NON-Musicians haha!

I had basically the exact opposite situation happen with one band I am in last year.
We usually do a big. multi-band get together party at a cool local bar. Every one is friends and we all end up jamming together.

I play with 2 or 3 bands and so it's usually my kit that's the "back line" kit (lucky them!).
There were new bands involved, so I told the guy's to let the other drummers know that I'd have only Hats, 1 crash and a ride (stands) available that nigh (because that's what I was playing at the time).

One of the other guy's said "won't that be a problem for someone else" and the singer/organizer said "not if they're a real drummer".

That made me feel real good.

I have some of the BRM videos, and it would be really cool to see all the drummers play on a Buddy kit.

Bo Eder said:

I would kill to see Dennis Chambers rip it up on a 4-piece....it would certainly end alot of discussions on whether or not we should add this or that to our kits, eh?

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You see, that's the issue right there for me. I've never been even slightly influenced by what great players play in terms of setup. Sure, I'll take note of the sounds produced by specific elements, but setup, no way. I've played almost the same setup from day 1. Never changed, never needed to, except for one excursion using just kick & snare for a series of gigs. I use what I need to make music my way, no more or less than that.

And while I'm on a roll, I don't much care for the slight snobbery that exists regarding kit size. I sense this both ways too. There's the guys that think a small setup is indicative of a limited repertoire & imagination, & there's guys who think a big kit is indicative of poor skills. What utter bollocks! It can be true, but it's not a given.

Quote...."once you get good enough on that, you'll buy a bigger kit." In other words-better drummers have bigger kits.

Or a bigger kit MAKES you a better drummer. No so my friends. Stay thirsty.

GRUNTERSDAD said:

Quote...."once you get good enough on that, you'll buy a bigger kit." In other words-better drummers have bigger kits.

Or a bigger kit MAKES you a better drummer. No so my friends. Stay thirsty.

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"He's the most INTERESTING drummer in the world........he plays 64th notes.....in CUT TIME!!!"

(Love the Dos Equis reference, Grunter LOL!)

Jim

rogue_drummer said:

Amen Funky! This nonsense of you must be a great player because you have a huge kit, is total BS. I'd much rather see a skilled drummer on a 4 piece with hats, ride, and a crash than some dweeb on a 15 piece kit that has no skill. At a jam last year I had the misfortune of meeting up with a drummer who insisted double bass was the way to go and all the toms you could get, yet this guy only could manage to do sixtenths starting from one end of the toms to the other. Every fill was like that and it sounded horrible.

I agree, a smaller kit is def where it's at.

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Personally, I am tired of the nonsense that you must be a great player if you only have a four-piece! Most of us play mid-sized kits of 5 to 8 pieces anyway. Like Buddy.

I think it was great that some people paid tribute and interpreted Buddy's style on a monster kit. Wow, think of Buddy on a monster kit. What if Buddy sat behind a monster set! Holy cow, I would LOVE to have seen that! Such fun! Let's not forget that double pedaling, even in a four-piece, is a wee bit of monster kit excess. Buddy double pedaling - I gotta calm down now.

Fun, though, is a missing ingredient from a lot of drumming. There's a lot of brow-furrowing, drilling down, rudimentating, woodshedding and serious study. It's all well and good, but let's not forget to have fun along the way and nothing says "HELL YEAH!!" like a monster set.

minds bigger then yours

I wouldn't call it big kit vs. small kit elitism, but the sizes, set up, and configuration can put you into a certain frame of mind when it comes to music.

And often, when I've seen several of these guys playing on their standard kits with the Buddy Rich band, they've tended to play their standard licks, just with a big band.

I've been disappointed by some of these concerts too, but I think it stems from wishing a lot of these guys played with more authenticity, no matter what kit they played it on.

Any one who thinks that a four-piece kit is limiting should watch 20-year old Michael Shrieve's (Santana) drum solo in "Soul Sacrifice" from Woodstock. On the other hand, you don't have to be great to play a four-piece kit in a rock band: I'm definitely living proof.

the idea of which is better in the big vs. small kit debate is like comparing traditional and matched grip, or whether Gretsch is better for jazz and Ludwig is better for rock. It depends on the person behind the drum kit. What ever works for you is best.

Winston_Wolf said:

I wouldn't call it big kit vs. small kit elitism, but the sizes, set up, and configuration can put you into a certain frame of mind when it comes to music.

And often, when I've seen several of these guys playing on their standard kits with the Buddy Rich band, they've tended to play their standard licks, just with a big band.

I've been disappointed by some of these concerts too, but I think it stems from wishing a lot of these guys played with more authenticity, no matter what kit they played it on.

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Perhaps this is what I was getting at. When I saw Dennis Chambers doing his thing with the band, I was a little disappointed. I wanted to see him swing with the band. But I realize that wasn't what it was about. Buddy Rich himself was very forward-thinking and hated doing things for nostalgia, so perhaps the context was right for these shows. I thought it would be nice if there was a good medium-swing number they all would've played. Louie Bellson was the only one. Neil Peart was the other one who made an attempt at approaching the music in an old-fashioned, big band way.

Of course, this is all academic, it would have been nice to see. But obviously too, the house probably wouldn't have filled up if the incoming drum stars didn't do their thing with Buddy's band, eh? All the drum stars are known for what they do, and they were doing it with Buddy's band that evening.

Bo Eder said:

Of course, this is all academic, it would have been nice to see. But obviously too, the house probably wouldn't have filled up if the incoming drum stars didn't do their thing with Buddy's band, eh? All the drum stars are known for what they do, and they were doing it with Buddy's band that evening.

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I guess, but the more I think of Buddy's band being reduced to a live accompaniment just so the never-ending parade of drummers can shred through their list of old solo licks it kinda pisses me off.

Even if some of the guys weren't that authentic but they connected with the band it made for a much more enjoyable performance.

Louie Bellson was good (no real surprise), Steve Smith was also really enjoyable to watch, and Phil Collins made a really good showing on his set, but so many other guys have left me cold either because there was no feel of a band vibe or it was just way too much of a chops-fest.

Winston_Wolf said:

I guess, but the more I think of Buddy's band being reduced to a live accompaniment just so the never-ending parade of drummers can shred through their list of old solo licks it kinda pisses me off.

Even if some of the guys weren't that authentic but they connected with the band it made for a much more enjoyable performance.

Louie Bellson was good (no real surprise), Steve Smith was also really enjoyable to watch, and Phil Collins made a really good showing on his set, but so many other guys have left me cold either because there was no feel of a band vibe or it was just way too much of a chops-fest.

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I've had mixed feelings about the whole Burnin' for Buddy deal. Although exactly one notch down artistically from say the best Ellington or Basie, those arrangements are really well done, especially the ones by Don Piestrup, John LaBarbera and Bill Holman. But like Ellington, I think you have to play a certain homage to them. Rich employed so many nuances to those charts that have since come to be expected that when you don't play them they really don't come off. And personally I often wondered how many of those famous players had really listened to those arrangements...I mean really listened to them, as opposed to just seeing the whole thing as this big hang out for collecting a cool eclectic video for the old press kit.

Now I'm not saying you copy the Rich stuff to a tee. Of course great players should bring their own thing to the table. But I think there has to be a Rich flavor inserted because like the Ellington music/ written for very specific players/ those charts were created for no one else but Buddy Rich. And if you lose sight of that then I think you risk screwing them up.

Mostly I was shocked at how many of those famous drummers didn't understand how to reinforce horn players in a big band setting, especially when punching the secondary lines. Some merely played as if it were a small group setting and I think it made the band itself sound heavier and more cumbersome. To me only Gadd, Vinnie C/although I was a little down on the double pedal concept/ and Bellson/who nailed it/ tried to do what I describe...and that is why I believe their performances worked out the best, because for all the showboating you can claim Rich was involved in, his #1 concern was still in swinging and driving the band. And no, I don't think some of those great musicians allowed themselves to do that on their particular sets. As for Chambers I thought all that was just fine, because that was a busy chart, so busy worked.

In no way do I claim to be on the level of guys like that, but I also think I know enough about the Rich legacy to make some qualified judgements.

Frankly, I've always been disappointed that Cathy Rich has never seen the wisdom in establishing an international Buddy Rich drum competition where young talents could be showcased playing her father's music, much in the way pianists have their Chopin competitions, Mozart etc...I think it would be huge. Then among those stars, the top three finalists would perform to determine a winner, with judges like say Ed Soph, Gadd, Butch Miles, Shaughnessy etc determining the winner. Frankly I think something like that would shake some of those stars up enough to take the thing a little more seriously.

And yeah for such a competition the competitors would absolutely play 4-5 piece kits chosen by the comp with the competitors own adjustments.

...while yes the stars can play whatever they please. All I ask is when they bring that big kit they remember that the arrangement comes first.

Speaking of Shaughnessy, where has he been on these things? That's the living guy who comes the closest to this style of music, even at his current age. And he also plays a slightly larger kit which would make the whole thing fascinating.

As for Buddy sounding better on a larger kit I think all that would be a mindset issue. He said many times during his life that he thought it silly to have so many drums when there so much to do with just one. So I personally think/my opinion only/ he didn't have the big kit mentality anyway.

Just one more thing...I've already seen the word chopfest inserted in this thread. All I can say is that it's a Rich gig. If you don't like hearing chops this stuff is probably not for you. Besides this isn't a show off chops thing. Those arrangements were created for a certain amount of intricacy, and if you don't observe that you miss the point, which has always been my primary rub with some of the Rich detractors, when they listen to Rich alone, and not the whole body of music.