Double Kick Single Pedal - How Long To Develop

W

Witterings

Silver Member
I've spent the last 2 years trying to develop my double kick on a single pedal and have tried just about every exercise under the sun but still they're not up "to speed".
If I'm playing a rhythm then genrally they're fine but if I want to do quick sextuplets RLRLKK or any of the "gospel chops" that require a quick double kick I just can't quite seem to break though that final barrier that really lifts the speed / whole effect.
I've tried going back and changing my technique and have learnt slide recently, I tried heel toe but it went against the grain and felt totally wrong.
There was a period where I was playing the 2 kicks much too "on top of" the RLRL so the spacing wasn't even which was destroying the whole effect but seem to have gotten past that.
I'd be interested to hear how long it took other people to really nail it and if there are any pointers people can give, I've also leasrnt The Samba and Bosanova because a few people have said that's when it clicked for them and I can play these nicely but just don't seem to be able to get smooth fast fills using a double kick.
As I said I've tried this for 2 years with a minimum 20 mins a day and aften 1 1/2 hrs and have been playing for over 10 years.
Any help appreciated !!!!
 
To perfect? I've been playing for nearly 14 years and I still haven't perfected it. To get to the stage where I can comfortably play a song a 220+bpm, it's taken me probably 6 years in a metal band.
 
Witterings said:
I've spent the last 2 years trying to develop my double kick on a single pedal and have tried just about every exercise under the sun but still they're not up "to speed".
If I'm playing a rhythm then genrally they're fine but if I want to do quick sextuplets RLRLKK or any of the "gospel chops" that require a quick double kick I just can't quite seem to break though that final barrier that really lifts the speed / whole effect.
I've tried going back and changing my technique and have learnt slide recently, I tried heel toe but it went against the grain and felt totally wrong.
There was a period where I was playing the 2 kicks much too "on top of" the RLRL so the spacing wasn't even which was destroying the whole effect but seem to have gotten past that.
I'd be interested to hear how long it took other people to really nail it and if there are any pointers people can give, I've also leasrnt The Samba and Bosanova because a few people have said that's when it clicked for them and I can play these nicely but just don't seem to be able to get smooth fast fills using a double kick.
As I said I've tried this for 2 years with a minimum 20 mins a day and aften 1 1/2 hrs and have been playing for over 10 years.
Any help appreciated !!!!
Click to expand...

I think that everything can be achieved through hard practice and you'll get there eventually can I ask what is your spring tension like? Good tension can really be a big factor.
 
JT1 said:
I think that everything can be achieved through hard practice and you'll get there eventually can I ask what is your spring tension like? Good tension can really be a big factor.
Click to expand...

It's difinitely not slack but it's not very over tight either, I'd say it's slightly tighter than medium.
 
when you play fast doubles it helps to slide your toes forward a little bit, like maybe a half an inch, as you're playing it. that's assuming you're playing heel up. sliding forward, or even just pushing forward a little, helps put more emphasis on the second hit and can help even up an otherwise sloppy double. it can help you play faster too. that's what i do anyway and it works very well for me.
 
Bradastronaut said:
What excersizes are you using like?
Click to expand...

I've gone through all of the Bonham kicks, I've tried and can play through The Benny Grebb section for moving the bass drum beats around in Rhythms, and am currently working my way through the section at the beginning of one of Gary Chafee's book which covers the same but in more detail and I'm really not finding it hard although some of then I'm not "used" to playing so take a bit of practice. I've been trying RLKK RLKK as fills and RLRLKK, I've tried putting right hand on the HH and left on the snare and playng RLRLRLKK with an accent on none of them then the accent on the 1st then the 2nd, then 3rd etc.
Again from the Chaffee book I've fairly recently started working on RLKK RLKK RLRLRLKK and then repeating and then moving the pattern around to say RLKK RLRLRLKK RLKK and then moving it again.

Playing the sextuplet fills where the kicks were too close to the RLRL and not even spaces between all notes I started counting them in 3's as opposed to 6's and that's evened it out quite considerbly.

I've spent absolutely hours practicing the fills in the video's below and can get them up to a certain speed and then it just won't seem to go that last smidge extra

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj8uLnpOBxA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwfZEGGYowU&feature=related

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/thomaspridgengospelfill.html

I'm close and it feels like I'm metres away from the top of the mountain and it just needs that last really big concerted push to get it over the top and then it's all downhill from there on BUT I've been at this exact place for about a year now and just can't seem to get up that last 10 metres if that makes sense.

I'm playing heel up and do slide my foot, I've tried varying degree's of this ie a very small slide through to quite a big exaggerated one to see if any are better.
 
just how fast do you want to play this stuff? after all that practice i gotta believe you've reached a point where you can play those fills in a musical situation. do you really need to go a whole lot faster than that?

in my experience i usually advance fairly quickly with any new groove or fill if i start very slow and work my way upward in speed. no matter what it is though, once i get to a certain speed it gets a lot harder to go any faster. i've run into that problem a bunch of times with new things i've attempted. i think that's pretty normal.
 
ANIMALBEATS said:
This guy is using a double pedal.

Took me years, but with very little parctise, there is also the "swivel" technique (which doesnt use the middle finger)
Click to expand...

I did wonder although I don't think Thomas Pridgen or the other 2 are in the previous vids, also I've seen people actually playing at the speed I'd like to get up to with single pedal.
 
Witterings said:
I'd like to be able to use them as in 1.24 of ths video at that sort of speed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_4mEKZyhrI&feature=related
Click to expand...

that's fast! time to practice! i can see where you would find it difficult to achieve that speed.

i agree about mike johnston too! that guy has amazing speed and control with his single pedal.

another guy i think has an incredibly fast foot is derico watson. i saw him with victor wooten recently and i couldn't believe how fast he is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRIiptfkir8
 
In the Mike Johnston video, you should note that when he plays the quick doubles he is only using one motion with his leg. One push down results in 2 kick notes, and it can also do three notes.

To achieve this, you need to get familiar with the rebound of the beater. Here is how you can practice to amplify the rebound and then learn how to utilize it...

Eliminate all temptation to hit other things by taking your bass drum and moving it away from the rest of the drums and cymbals, then put your throne behind the bass drum. A bass drum, throne and your pedal. (It isn't necessary to really do this, but I find that it mentally reinforces the idea that you are focussing on the bass drum only)

Tighten the spring on your pedal to the highest tension it will go, because this will likely be the setting that you will be using when you get your feet developed enough to do these quick doubles.

The trick is to push hard enough to cause the beater to hit the bass drum head, but NOT have your foot on the pedal when it does. Your foot must not be applying pressure to the footboard when the beater strikes the head. if you do this right, the beater will hit the head and bounce back with some of the energy that the head rebound gives it, as well as what the spring is doing.

Playing fast is not how fast you can get the beater to the head, it is how fast you can get the beater back to the starting point. The concept is exactly the same as Moeller Method applies to the hands.

Practice bouncing the beater off of the drum head for a while then gradually move the starting point closer to the head. The starting point of the stroke doesn;t have to be where the pedal is fully relaxed. You can catch the pedal before that point.

Notice the swing radius of the beater as it moves by itself through the swing. try stopping the pedal halfway through its motion back and hold it there and then bounce the beater off the head from that point. You will be training your foot to automatically 'know' where the halfway point is.

When you get a bit comfortable with this, you can then go at the real motion which is where your toe is in contact with the footboard the whole way through the stroke, but only applying downward pressure fore the first part of the stroke. Think of it like a piston in an engine. The downward force of the gas combustion only happens for a fraction of downward motion of the piston. The inertia invested in the piston from the expanding gas propels it through the rest of the stroke.

The best basic exercise I have found to help understand the principle is very simple.

kK kK kK kK

Play the first note as softly as possible and then the second note as strongly as possible. Buh BOOM buh BOOM buh BOOM
 
...and I do not care what others say about this. The pedal you use does matter.

If you are genuine in your desire to have a wicked fast foot, you should consider a direct drive, ultra-light pedal. Direct drive so there is no slop. Ultra-light so that there is less inertia need to make it move through its swing radius.

I played DW pedals for many years and I could never get them to do what I wanted and I got to a point where I could not go any faster. A point much lesser than many other fast double kick players. I checked out what the fastest players were using, and it seems that they were all using Axis pedals. I bought a set, and there is no going back.

It took a while to get used to how they feel, because they are different than the super heavy DW pedals I was using. It was well worth the extra time spent getting used to them, cus now I can play stuff I never thought I'd be able to. My quickest is about 240bpm 16ths. played as doubles. A bit faster for singles but also a bit sloppier.
 
dairyairman said:
another guy i think has an incredibly fast foot is derico watson. i saw him with victor wooten recently and i couldn't believe how fast he is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRIiptfkir8
Click to expand...

What a great video !!!

JT1
I haven't tried the one you suggested by Mile Johnston, I'll give that a go, the he does here though the excercise he starts explaining at about 1.40 I've tried that for ages and can get it faster than he starts out playing it in the demo but then you see him really up to speed at 2.35 and after 2 years I'm so far away from acheiving anything like that speed it's not true.

Crazy8s
I've certainly done / felt that method in the past so totally understand what you mean but I've never tried to actually develop it maybe I should spend some time with it.

Do you think playing an electronic kit could make any real difference, I tend to practice rudiments and things like this on there to try and be neighbour friendly and then use ny acoustic when I actually play to music. My electronic is yamaha DT Xpress 2.

A big thank you to all for your input!
 
Crazy8s said:
In the Mike Johnston video, you should note that when he plays the quick doubles he is only using one motion with his leg. One push down results in 2 kick notes, and it can also do three notes.

To achieve this, you need to get familiar with the rebound of the beater. Here is how you can practice to amplify the rebound and then learn how to utilize it...

Eliminate all temptation to hit other things by taking your bass drum and moving it away from the rest of the drums and cymbals, then put your throne behind the bass drum. A bass drum, throne and your pedal. (It isn't necessary to really do this, but I find that it mentally reinforces the idea that you are focussing on the bass drum only)

Tighten the spring on your pedal to the highest tension it will go, because this will likely be the setting that you will be using when you get your feet developed enough to do these quick doubles.

The trick is to push hard enough to cause the beater to hit the bass drum head, but NOT have your foot on the pedal when it does. Your foot must not be applying pressure to the footboard when the beater strikes the head. if you do this right, the beater will hit the head and bounce back with some of the energy that the head rebound gives it, as well as what the spring is doing.

Playing fast is not how fast you can get the beater to the head, it is how fast you can get the beater back to the starting point. The concept is exactly the same as Moeller Method applies to the hands.

Practice bouncing the beater off of the drum head for a while then gradually move the starting point closer to the head. The starting point of the stroke doesn;t have to be where the pedal is fully relaxed. You can catch the pedal before that point.

Notice the swing radius of the beater as it moves by itself through the swing. try stopping the pedal halfway through its motion back and hold it there and then bounce the beater off the head from that point. You will be training your foot to automatically 'know' where the halfway point is.

When you get a bit comfortable with this, you can then go at the real motion which is where your toe is in contact with the footboard the whole way through the stroke, but only applying downward pressure fore the first part of the stroke. Think of it like a piston in an engine. The downward force of the gas combustion only happens for a fraction of downward motion of the piston. The inertia invested in the piston from the expanding gas propels it through the rest of the stroke.

The best basic exercise I have found to help understand the principle is very simple.

kK kK kK kK

Play the first note as softly as possible and then the second note as strongly as possible. Buh BOOM buh BOOM buh BOOM
Click to expand...

Thanks for the explanation man I never thought about that, really helpful!
 
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