Drummers who QUANTIZE recorded drums

Damn you sheep will really listen to anything... Gavin quantizing? Really? Do you have ears of your own? If you listen to a track and can't tell whether a metronome's been used or not, then f*ck, you have a lot more listening to do.*

What's ironic in all this is we now have audio engineers spending a load of time figuring out "studio magic" and how to fix drum tracks to the point where the general public doesn't know the difference, instead of hiring a drummer who's spent a load of time figuring out how to play.

*Yup I realize quantizing is different then a click, but both result in a sterile-sounding recording. I'd take a skilled drummer's internal time than a click on a recording every day of the week.

Not 100% necessarily all true.

Clicks can be programmed to speed up and slow down.

Good drummers can push and pull to give an organic feel even on a straight click.

Sloppy drummers are going to dance around the click regardless.

As Kenny Arnoff has said, some times he plays left hand lead because it gives a track a deliberate sloppy feel, even to a click.

A producer can take a track that had no click and no quantization, and cut and paste or loop a track to feel sterile. Or in the 70s disco era, when they would record one drum at a time, without a click, which made some pretty sterile drum parts.

In the right/wrong hands, there are ways to make a click not feel sterile, and make a non-click track still feel sterile.
 
Probably not, they just know if something sounds good to them. That's how I judge music: I like something, or I don't... it makes me feel good, or it doesn't. If I had to make my listening choices based on a specific level of the performance, there'd be a ton of artists I couldn't listen to.

I agree.

When I was younger, i used to have a rule about not listening to bands that used machines in the studio. But then once in a while I would come across a really good album, and I'd have to make an exception. Then after a while, I had so many exceptions, I realized it was a dumb rule.
 
If you listen to a track and can't tell whether a metronome's been used or not, then f*ck, you have a lot more listening to do.*

*Yup I realize quantizing is different then a click, but both result in a sterile-sounding recording. I'd take a skilled drummer's internal time than a click on a recording every day of the week.
I've heard drummers where I know for a fact there was no click, but their internal time was so strong and consistent that you would think they did use one.

Then there are drummers who do use clicks and you can't tell. The list of drummers who use clicks is obviously longer than you realize.
 
The alternative is an organic track that speeds and slows noticeably, and sounds horrible. In short, a click dosn't hurt a good drummer, and doesn't help a bad one.

Jon, the first thing I thought of when I read this was the middle ground. You used the word "noticeably" re: tempo fluctuations but plenty of great sounding tracks have not been in perfect time and "noticeably" depends on who's doing the noticing. I'm not sure some of those old tracks would pass muster commercially in today's scene, which I'm guessing is where you're coming from ... ?

Ethan, I couldn't help noticing that you made your sheeple comment after the fact ... and hindsight is always 20/20 :)
 
Jon, the first thing I thought of when I read this was the middle ground. You used the word "noticeably" re: tempo fluctuations but plenty of great sounding tracks have not been in perfect time and "noticeably" depends on who's doing the noticing. I'm not sure some of those old tracks would pass muster commercially in today's scene, which I'm guessing is where you're coming from ... ?

Specifically, most of the music from pre-1975. There were a few very meticulous artists back in the day, but I could reference MANY tracks from my otherwise beloved Beatles, Stones, Who, Led Zeppelin, etc, that would be viewed as sloppy by today's standards. Whether it's vocal gaffs and bad tuning, bad edits, bleed from other tracks, sticks clicking, tempo issues and bad timing on fills, amp noise & hum, or just plain wrong notes, these are things we overlook in older recordings and consider them part of the artistry of the day.

Well, truth be told, those artists would have LOVED to have been able to easily clean-up tracks and make fixes. They didn't leave gaffs in the tracks because they're organic, or because the artists didn't know the difference. They were simply too difficult or time-consuming (read: expensive) to correct, and the decision was made to just leave it... "the listeners will never know."

Well, for some time now, the listeners do know. They've become educated, trained, whatever you want to call it, thanks to higher production values in music. Now, listeners demand more perfection than ever before, and the folks who make and sell music have had to step up.

Bermuda
 
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Specifically, most of the music from pre-1975. There were a few very meticulous artists back in the day, but I could reference MANY tracks from my otherwise beloved Beatles, Stones, Who, Led Zeppelin, etc, that would be viewed as sloppy by today's standards. Whether it's vocal gaffs and bad tuning, bad edits, bleed from other tracks, sticks clicking, tempo issues and bad timing on fills, amp noise & hum, or just plain wrong notes, these are things we overlook in older recordings and consider them part of the artistry of the day.

Well, truth be told, those artists would have LOVED to have been able to easily clean-up tracks and make fixes.

Thanks for clarifying. I thought that might have been your angle. When I played my nephew some of my old music he said it sounded sloppy - his ears are trained by drum machines. He does like Pink Floyd - one of the more meticulous groups of the time.

Everything evolves to become more complex and sophisticated in time. Then it reaches a certain point and breaks down to something new and raw ... eg. folk-->classical-->experimental ... ragtime-->bop-->nu jazz ... rock'n'roll-->prog-->punk etc (yes, it's a very simplified account).

It's as though, at first, the extra layers of sophistication expand on the music but after a while the intellectual layers start to obscure the emotional essence and so we start over with a new generation rediscovering the emotional side of things again.

Personally, I'm in a time warp and my heart will always belong to the sounds and ethos of the 60s and 70s. I enjoy some quantised / drum machine music but I usually prefer things more raw and organic. Fortunately, I don't aim to make a living out of music :)
 
If anyone's wondering how to find out if a song's been recorded with a metronome, see:

http://musicmachinery.com/2009/03/02/in-search-of-the-click-track/

No human can keep a constant tempo for a duration of a song without a click and this program can calculate tempo fluctuations and with a good amount of confidence say whether a click has been used during recording.

Everything else about the 'nome and preference beyond this is subjective. Full disclosure: I'm a huge fan of Ronnie Vannucci of the Killers who records exclusively with a click. I think he's terribly underrated and does give great life to his drums and recordings. But I guess everyone already know where my tastes lie. I'll take http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bkjv9SscotY with squeeky pedal and tempo fluctuations and all every day man. That shit speaks to me.

Finally, even though top40 is mostly click work doesn't mean there isn't a market for bands who play more organic music. Look at Black Keys, White Stripes, etc..

P.S. This doesn't mean amateur drummers (myself included) should neglect practicing with a metronome. Matt Smith gave me great insight about this maybe about a year ago on these forums that even if you enjoy listening to songs with a natural drummer doesn't mean you will get to that level without ever touching a metronome. Because of this (and my own internal clock shortcomings) I've recently joined a dance rock band which records and gigs exclusively with a click. Now it's my job to breath life into it. Maybe that's why Ronnie Vannucci inspires me =P
 
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