Controlled Bounce?

----When you bounce a stick, you are not applying any more inertia than the first stroke, and due to the laws of physics/transfer of energy/whatever, the second stroke will never sound as loud as the first stroke. It might sound close, especially from right above the drum, but not adding the momentum to that second stroke will make the double stroke sound uneven. QUOTE]

You can't be serious !!
The whole idea behind controilled bounce is to equalise note volumes !!
So all those great Papa Jo Jones soloes are bogus ??
Sonny Payne ??
Chico Hamilton ??

Well okay then, good to know !!
It's nice to know that I've been playing incorrectly since 1951.

Rocky
 
"Whenever possible" ... interesting way of putting it, Larry. That's something I want to do - increase the amount of spots in the music where I utilise bounce. It feels better and usually makes a more appropriate sound.

I've heard people talk about there being a difference between bounce and rebound and never understood it. Isn't it all just dropping or throwing the stick towards the head, then picking it up again?

The term is "Controlled Bounce'.
If you just throw the stick or let it drop and rebound, it will just fall or drop and rebound.
No surprise there, no control.
No music, either, just the noise of falling sticks.
When you learn how to CONTROL the BOUNCE, then you've mastered "Controlled Bounce" !!

Rocky
 
Anyone here taught the controlled bounce to develop their roll? I'm just curious and wondering if I'm just ancient.

Thanks,
BigD

You mean there's a way of playing the instrument WITHOUT learning "Controlled Bounce" ??
It's a solid technique and an integral part of playing the instrument.
I use the technique all the time,

Rocky
 
This is a very interesting thread. I like it.

I've heard people talk about there being a difference between bounce and rebound and never understood it. Isn't it all just dropping or throwing the stick towards the head, then picking it up again?

Is there a difference between the two? Would the reaction of the stick hitting the head and coming back up be the same no matter how the stick travels toward the head? Is there a particular form of stroke that people call 'bounce' when there's less velocity involved? Hm.

When doing a double stroke, you should use two strokes to achieve equal volume between the two notes. After a certain point, you can utilize a "wrist-finger" motion where you use your wrist for the first stroke, and the fingers to throw the stick down for the second stroke. With this technique, you should be able to do double strokes so fast that they sound like buzz strokes--no need to bounce the sticks, except when doing buzz/press/orchestral rolls...

I come from the classical/rudimental world, where double strokes involve two strokes. When you bounce a stick, you are not applying any more inertia than the first stroke, and due to the laws of physics/transfer of energy/whatever, the second stroke will never sound as loud as the first stroke. It might sound close, especially from right above the drum, but not adding the momentum to that second stroke will make the double stroke sound uneven.

The "wrist-finger" technique isn't complicated at all. In fact, if you play with as relaxed a grip as possible while keeping your fingers on the stick at all times, once you break the 32nd notes at around 90-100 bpm barrier, your hands/wrist/fingers will do it automatically, without having to study and develop a special technique. Over the years, people have given it names, like the Gladstone technique or Push Pull or whatever, but it came from the natural movement of playing double *strokes* at a fast pace. You can play them fast enough to not be able to discern a double-stroke roll from an orchestral roll. Having to "switch over" from double strokes to bounced double strokes and back can also cause a hiccup in one's playing.

... Having studied drumming/rudiments in depth, it's a shame to be out there watching drum line instructors teaching the snare line to bounce their doubles. Ugh...

Caddy, I have to admit that you and I have such very different educations in rudimental drumming it's almost like we're speaking different languages here. Not that it's a bad thing, just an intriguing difference. I'll try to step lightly.

To the OP, As far as I know, controlled bounce sounds just like using the fingers and rebound to get two strikes out of a single stroke. I'm not gonna get into diddles and drags, but that's what it sounds like to me.

This wrist/finger stroke CW is talking about seems to also be a close approximation of my explanation, where the stroke is initiated by the wrist and the fingers do the rest after the rebound, or bounce, whichever.

Then again, all of this is said working under the assumption that rebound and bounce are practically the same thing.

Anyone got any info on this terminology to clear this up?
 
I'm pretty sure bounce and rebound are used interchangeably Steelie.

Caddy Alert:

I did an interesting natural bounce experiment designed to audibly measure the volume of the 1st bounce after the initial hit. To see if I could notice a difference. I though you might find this interesting. You were the inspiration for this my Oregonian friend. Tell me what you think.

What I did was, sitting at my snare drum, I took one Vic Firth 5A, balanced it on the side of my left index finger, right under the flag on the stick. Except it doesn't balance there, I have to hold the back end of the stick down with my free hand to keep the stick level and balanced on my finger. So with the level stick tip about 3 inches above the middle of the snare head, I let go of the back end, so that gravity pulls the tip down. A totally unaided gravity drop. Naturally the stick tip bounces off the snare head, totally unaided by me, about 5 times or so.

To my ear, the first three sounds the snare drum makes are so close in volume, I can't tell the difference. The 4th hit. which technically is the 3rd bounce....that's when I can pick up a noticeable volume difference.

So, riddle me this Batman... why should I stroke out both strokes..... when a bounced double roll.....especially after I add some downward pressure..... can sound perfectly even? (and is worlds easier to play and flows smoother, for me)

If you are going to use the double stroke vs double bounce thing, if we could...I'd like to skip that whole semantics thing and jump right to the results.

If bounced doubles sound even, why stroke both out? It's way harder.
 
I'm pretty sure bounce and rebound are used interchangeably Steelie.

The only difference I know is that "rebound" is more of a thing happening away from something, whereas "bounce" can be in both directions. At least, that's how I think of the words.

I wouldn't say that "I rebounded the stick against the drum", because the rebound is what the stick is doing off the drum. But I would say that "I bounced the stick against/on the drum".

"Natural bounce" isn't something I would say, either. To me, it implies that the stick/drum is animate, so I would say "natural rebound".

However, the two words, to my knowledge, don't indicate two separate methods or techniques.


If bounced doubles sound even, why stroke both out?

I definitely agree with this. Whichever method/technique you use, if you get even sounding doubles, it doesn't matter what others do.


EDIT: After some more reading (especially here), I realise that the controlled strokes are good for developing the control and muscle memory, etc. but I still don't see them as a viable way of playing doubles at high tempos; there has to be some finger control going on.
If it's how you've been taught, and you can play fully controlled doubles fast, then good for you. I'll certainly be practising them on a pillow or other non-rebounding surface but when I move to the drumkit I'll be letting my hands and fingers do what they like, and making use of the rebound.
 
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What I did was, sitting at my snare drum, I took one Vic Firth 5A, balanced it on the side of my left index finger, right under the flag on the stick. Except it doesn't balance there, I have to hold the back end of the stick down with my free hand to keep the stick level and balanced on my finger. So with the level stick tip about 3 inches above the middle of the snare head, I let go of the back end, so that gravity pulls the tip down. A totally unaided gravity drop. Naturally the stick tip bounces off the snare head, totally unaided by me, about 5 times or so.

To my ear, the first three sounds the snare drum makes are so close in volume, I can't tell the difference. The 4th hit. which technically is the 3rd bounce....that's when I can pick up a noticeable volume difference.

So, riddle me this Batman... why should I stroke out both strokes..... when a bounced double roll.....especially after I add some downward pressure..... can sound perfectly even? (and is worlds easier to play and flows smoother, for me)

If you are going to use the double stroke vs double bounce thing, if we could...I'd like to skip that whole semantics thing and jump right to the results.

If bounced doubles sound even, why stroke both out? It's way harder.

What was the rate of the bounces? Can you test how fulcrum pressure affects the perceived volume of the bounces?
 
A video would greatly shorten the debate here (or maybe lengthen it). I have been learning what CW is talking about so it is still being taught and is, in my beginner opinion, the key to having good hands and controlling the sounds/dynamics on the kit.

The starting point for me was this exercise at a low speed. Like 40 Bpm.

1e+a 2e+a 3e+a 4e+a RRLL RRLL RRLL RRLL
Singles Doubles

put the kick on the numbers. At this slow speed you have to make 2 separate hits for the doubles and the goal is to make the singles and doubles sound the same. NO REBOUND OR BOUNCE IS USED. Speed this up but dont let your hands switch to bounced doubles. It teaches a level of control that the hands dont get from just using the bounce.

Right OP?
 
... NO REBOUND OR BOUNCE IS USED. Speed this up but dont let your hands switch to bounced doubles. It teaches a level of control that the hands dont get from just using the bounce.

Right OP?

Toolate, you have the first part right, but not the second part. Like the OP, I, too, was taught the Controlled Bounce back about 1967. My teacher considered it the PRIMARY lesson during my first year. I had to start slow with the discrete doublestroke, no bounce. However, I was to transition to a Controlled Bounce when reaching a higher speed. The goal was to make the transition from discrete doublestroke to bounced doublestroke very smoothly. You should not be able to tell where the transition was.

This took much practice! Each stroke of the Controlled Bounce doublestroke was to sound identical. Honestly, I can't say how I figured it out (I was 13 yo at the time.). All I know is that my teacher stressed it as the most important technique I could master, so I made it my primary practice routine until he said it was acceptable. It took months! Haha!

Actually, I still work on it today. It's my warm-up exercise. I start with a very slow Controlled Bounce roll (hard to do slowly) and speed it up to nearly a press roll. Keeping each stroke sounding identical. (Then, just for fun, I add syncopated accents...definition of a Drum Nerd anyone?)
 
I'm pretty sure bounce and rebound are used interchangeably Steelie.

...

So, riddle me this Batman... why should I stroke out both strokes..... when a bounced double roll.....especially after I add some downward pressure..... can sound perfectly even? (and is worlds easier to play and flows smoother, for me)

If you are going to use the double stroke vs double bounce thing, if we could...I'd like to skip that whole semantics thing and jump right to the results.

If bounced doubles sound even, why stroke both out? It's way harder.

The two techniques have developed because they have practical applications. It's very hard to 'double-bounce' at a slower tempo and it's hard to double-stroke a roll at a very high tempo, so they have their places.

What was the rate of the bounces? Can you test how fulcrum pressure affects the perceived volume of the bounces?

I would think that the volume of the bounces is determined by the wrist and not the fulcrum. The fulcrum would change the rate of the bounces instead.
 
i think that wavelength is suggesting that as you add more pressure to the stroke the sonic differences between bounces will increase. he is correct.

its important to to use the natural momentum of the stick but you should be making two strokes, the second of which is working WITH the stick to enhance the volume of the second stroke slightly so that they sound even. so the second stroke might be a much less involved stroke than then first but it needs to be there to transfer enough energy back to the stick for the two strokes to be even sounding.

using two separate strokes will also allow you to play clean doubles at much lower volumes. this is because you are relying less on bounce and so require less kinetic energy from the stick.
 
The reason for the experiment is to show that even with no downward pressure, the initial hit and first bounce are, for all intents and purposes, the same volume.

The big negative to bounced doubles is that the second hit is thought to be lower in volume than the first hit. I think this proves otherwise.

Also if I am doing doubles slow enough to stroke them...I don't know that I ever have a reason to play them that slow. If I am doing doubles, they are usually at such a tempo where I need bounce them.

If I do need to play them slow, I can bounce them very slowly and evenly too. Or stroke them. Bouncing sounds more even and feels twice as relaxed.

My brother told me once, "if you're working too hard, you're doing something wrong." Best advice I ever got. I feel I'm working too hard stroking both doubles.

Just saying that it's the results that count, not the method. I'll compare my bounced doubles to anyone's. You could take that as a challenge if you want.
 
I was taught by various teachers that the double stroke roll should be practiced at slower speeds as individual wrist hits. As the tempo increases the the bounce is added, but by that point (after practicing wrist hits for some time) the fingers automatically respond to the second hit - evening out the sound.

A similar concept is addressed in the old style writing of the double stroke roll rudiment - as in the NARD book. Each double is written with an accent on the second beat. George Lawrence Stone also goes into that concept in Accents and Rebounds. The goal is to have control of the secondary beat so the roll sounds even.

bigd - Is that the same concept that you were referring to?

Jeff
 
Accenting the second stroke....

Do you do that for a louder 2nd stroke or a more even 2nd stroke?

I guess it's good practice slower, I'm just saying that gratuitously, I don't see the need for it actually, but trying to do doubles at a bounce tempo while accenting the 2nd hit sounds retarded to me, feels retarded to me, to the point where I don't understand why it is taught. Even is all you need right?

Why over-complicate this?
 
Accenting the second stroke....

Do you do that for a louder 2nd stroke or a more even 2nd stroke?

I guess it's good practice slower, I'm just saying that gratuitously, I don't see the need for it actually, but trying to do doubles at a bounce tempo while accenting the 2nd hit sounds retarded to me, feels retarded to me, to the point where I don't understand why it is taught. Even is all you need right?

Why over-complicate this?

I wonder if anyone ever said that to Stone personally about his concepts in Accents and Rebounds? His concept is that the roll is only as strong as the secondary beat. The idea is to have enough control over the secondary beat to accent it. Then, once the accent is taken away, the drummer will have complete control over the roll.

I am just writing this quickly because I have to go to my wife's orchestra concert. But take a look at the second part of Accents and Rebounds. Stone includes an article that he wrote from International Musician in the book. That will give you more information. I believe the Jim Chapin video goes into that concept as well.

To paraphrase Chapin - examine the techniques, try them out and use them or discard them.

Jeff
 
I'm sorry. I always question authority when something bugs me. The 2nd accent thing, I tried it for a while and discarded it. My doubles sound plenty even to me without doing that. Not saying everyone should discard it, not at all, everyone's technique is a little different.

At a gig, does anyone play doubles with an accented 2nd stroke, or is it something that is used solely in the practice room? (Asking anyone)
 
As Jeff said, the idea of accenting the second stroke is not to be able to play that particular dynamic rhythm, but in order to emphasise the control over that second bounced stroke, rather than, potentially, relying completely on the bounce for it.
You would practice it as an accent, but only to develop that level of control over the second stroke.

The first stroke is presumably already controlled because it's essentially the same as the single stroke, so there's not usually any worry about how that sounds, but since the second stroke is considered to be weaker, practising it in the way Jeff (and others) describes ensures that the second stroke can be properly controlled, to ensure an even sounding stroke.

Similarly, you can focus on being louder as you get faster, to counteract the tendency to reduce intensity of the hits as you increase the tempo. The idea is not to play double stroke roll like this all the time, but to develop the control to be able to play faster at the same volume/dynamics as you do when you play slowly.

Interestingly (to me), Dr. John Wooton talks about practising with brushes or on your leg to develop the controlled double strokes, but then goes on to say that you get more even sounding transitions (from slow to fast) by starting out with bounced strokes. Video here. The demonstration begins around 1:15.
For me, I see the controlled strokes as being good for practising, controlled bounces more for actual playing.
 
Accenting the second stroke is something I only do in practice, I never did it while playing music :)

I don't use the rebound to play my double strokes, the primary reason is I use a lot of rods as well as sticks, but the rebound with rods is not great, the secondary reason is I feel more in control of the speed and dynamics with wrists and fingers than relying solely on rebound :)
 
thats another point. by learning to make a second stroke you can get doubles using brushes and rods.
 
I am having a hard time getting past how anyone can play a drum and not use the rebound for faster stuff. Talking gigs here not practicing. A pillow yes. It has no rebound. But a drum?

Of course I know how to stop a rebound on a single stroke, I do it all the time for backbeats. But when rolling around the toms, singles or doubles, you'd better believe I'm relying on the bounce. Because it is so reliable. It allows me to reclaim already spent energy. It's efficient. It's easier. The only way I can imagine doing fast singles or doubles without using bounce is by stopping the rebound, then picking the stick up....that sounds wacky to me. Are you guys saying you actually pick your sticks up on every fast stroke? It's either yes or no.

Also, who does slow doubles? The reason I do doubles in the first place is because I'm at a speed where singles don't make sense anymore. Slow doubles? Why bother, when I could just play the slow doubles part with one hand for the most even sound ever, plus have a free hand to do something else with? No brainer from where I'm sitting.

I am not trying to be difficult, I really think I am making a sensible debate stance here.

I know this goes against what is taught, but it makes too much sense to me... meaning using the rebound for everything you can get from it. It's a gift.
 
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