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  #1  
Old 08-31-2014, 05:31 AM
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Default Irony?

So general discussion - if you're an artist for a drum manufacturer, why would you settle for a signature snare drum that is reasonably priced if the manufacturer makes beautiful totally expensive ones?

Case in point: I see the Pearl Joey Jordison snare selling for $299. Pearl also makes a same-size Reference snare that would sell for $750.

Yes - I know it's all about the player making the drum sound good. I just find it odd that as "the artist" you would settle for a less-expensive drum if they were giving you carte blanche on anything you may want. I would totally say, "I want my artist snare based off of your new Reference series, with some bits of carbon fiber and gold in it, to make it mine". Pearl would turn around and say "You got it, we can sell it to your fans for $1899".

Something like that would be a collector's item - like the Zildjian/Pro Drum Constantinople rides selling for $600 or so. Or even Ralph Gibson's signature Leica camera (they only made 35 of them and sold them all in 5 minutes at $28K each). Isn't that something that would be cool? Or is it cool to see all these used Joey Jordison snares on eBay selling for $150?

Thinking out loud tonight. What do you think?
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  #2  
Old 08-31-2014, 05:49 AM
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Default Re: Irony?

Maybe the cheaper drum has that desired '"sound" and the more expensive one didn't.

It could be just that simple.
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Old 08-31-2014, 06:23 AM
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Default Re: Irony?

...generally speaking, and responding to the leica camera reference, german companies seem to focus on ultra-exclusive, low-quantity/high price, "signature/limited edition" releases (think, mont blanc patron/writers series, bmw/mercedes m-brand/amg-brand, leica rangefinders, etc.)...conversely, japanese companies seem to focus on wider market appeal with moderate pricing (think, yamaha signature series snares, lexus/infinity/acura, etc.), tho pearl's approach in the case cited seems a bit different, imho...
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Old 08-31-2014, 06:28 AM
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Default Re: Irony?

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Originally Posted by singing drums View Post
japanese companies seem to focus on wider market appeal with moderate pricing
I think that's the case in at least some of the instances of signature snares/kits, with the lure for the artist being a royalty on each sale. And of course the more units sold, the more the payment, so the artist goes with that (and not necessarily what's the best quality or something they'd actually use.)

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  #5  
Old 08-31-2014, 06:29 AM
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Default Re: Irony?

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Originally Posted by singing drums View Post
...generally speaking, and responding to the leica camera reference, german companies seem to focus on ultra-exclusive, low-quantity/high price, "signature/limited edition" releases (think, mont blanc patron/writers series, bmw/mercedes m-brand/amg-brand, leica rangefinders, etc.)...conversely, japanese companies seem to focus on wider market appeal with moderate pricing (think, yamaha signature series snares, lexus/infinity/acura, etc.), tho pearl's approach in the case cited seems a bit different, imho...
I suppose this could be the cultural appeal. It's odd that whatever musically is out there, they're chasing names like "supraphonic", "stratocaster", "telecaster", "Les Paul", or "Moog", eh?
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Old 08-31-2014, 06:34 AM
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Default Re: Irony?

I'm not seeing where irony fits in anywhere here.
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Old 08-31-2014, 06:40 AM
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Default Re: Irony?

Pearl seems a little more guilty than most of releasing "signature" snares that bear only a passing resemblance to the drum that artist actually uses. The Joey Jordison, Chad Smith, and Morgan Rose snares immediately come to mind. They seem to be a lot more focused on hitting a particular price point than anything else.

I don't really see anything wrong with that, and those drums sound fine, but if I was a fan of one of those guys I'd rather just save up a little more and buy the drum they actually play.
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Old 08-31-2014, 06:43 AM
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Default Re: Irony?

Who knows why pearl do that but maybe it makes a statement about the type of drummers who buy signature snares.

Are artist signature drum-buyers the laymen who don't know or care about the specs? Maybe a person who doesn't care about specs but buys into the rockstar image is less likely to cough up $800 on a snare.

I think pearl made more expensive artist snares but they made a fair few steel ones, and steel snares tend to be cheaper don't they?

DW, yamaha and tama artist snares definitely weren't always cheap.
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Old 08-31-2014, 06:44 AM
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Default Re: Irony?

I'm thinking Pearl was wise enough to know that not many of Joeys' fans could afford much more. How much money does a 14 year old have?
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Old 08-31-2014, 06:48 AM
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Default Re: Irony?

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Originally Posted by con struct View Post
I'm not seeing where irony fits in anywhere here.
No irony in a thread that's supposed to be ironic? How ironic!
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  #11  
Old 08-31-2014, 06:49 AM
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Default Re: Irony?

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Originally Posted by con struct View Post
I'm not seeing where irony fits in anywhere here.
The irony is that these top-level artists' "signature drums" aren't really that top-level. Some are actually artist specified drums that they use (Mike Portnoy, Simon Phillips, etc.), some are cheaper facsimiles likely using the name of the artist as marketing for royalties & increased sales, and some are a weird mix i.e. John Dolmayan's signature Tama snare which is just a Starclassic Maple snare, 1/2" shallower/deeper, with a fancy finish and Warlord lugs.
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Old 08-31-2014, 07:18 AM
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Default Re: Irony?

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Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
I'm thinking Pearl was wise enough to know that not many of Joeys' fans could afford much more. How much money does a 14 year old have?
I'm thinking Joey was wise enough to know that not many of Joeys' fans could afford much more.

He has a whole "signature" kit that he admits is a cheaper version of what he uses on stage to make it affordable for the average fan.

Supportively, when Eddie Van Halen switched from Music Man to Peavy for his signature guitar line, one of the reasons was to make the guitar more widely available for his fans.

But then again, the Chad Smith signature snare drum is essentially a variation of a Ludwig acrolite, and as such, it's relatively cheap drum. Yet there is no reason to think that Chad wouldn't use it.
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  #13  
Old 08-31-2014, 07:20 AM
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Default Re: Irony?

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Originally Posted by porter View Post
The irony is that these top-level artists' "signature drums" aren't really that top-level. Some are actually artist specified drums that they use (Mike Portnoy, Simon Phillips, etc.), some are cheaper facsimiles likely using the name of the artist as marketing for royalties & increased sales, and some are a weird mix i.e. John Dolmayan's signature Tama snare which is just a Starclassic Maple snare, 1/2" shallower/deeper, with a fancy finish and Warlord lugs.
You've just described deception/ false advertising, not irony.
This thread is like the song "Ironic" where none of the lyrics actually describe an ironic event.
Perhaps Bo was listening to Alanis when he started this thread?
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Old 08-31-2014, 07:33 AM
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Default Re: Irony?

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Originally Posted by toddmc View Post
You've just described deception/ false advertising, not irony.
This thread is like the song "Ironic" where none of the lyrics actually describe an ironic event.
Perhaps Bo was listening to Alanis when he started this thread?
Semantics aside, perhaps I was ;)

I suppose this does open that "signature can of worms", but there are some signature snares that I think are really good, like the Stewart Copeland, and the Elvin Jones, the Benny Greb, and the Steve Jordan - and those aren't necessarily very expensive either (well, maybe the Greb), and those people really do/did use them. I guess it's a fascinating look at capitalism and fandom.
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Old 08-31-2014, 09:40 AM
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Default Re: Irony?

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Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
I guess it's a fascinating look at capitalism and fandom.
That's pretty much it. This may sound blunt, but endorsing artists are a marketing resource to be used as deemed appropriate by the drum company. Ok, it's by agreement of course, nobody's forcing anyone to stand by a specific design, but it's not about the artist having an ego stroking drum naming experience, it's about using that artist's appeal/notoriety to sell drums to a target audience. It therefore follows that the drum will be produced at an appropriate price point for that target audience. No doubt, the artist will receive some consideration in respect of sales, but I don't absolutely know that to be the case.

TBH, it's pretty obvious when an artist has truly steered the design of a snare. Gavin's Protean design is a prime recent example. Most others are simply a naming ceremony with some small tweak the artist/marketing department can build a claim around. It's all about as relevant as "celebrity perfume".
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Old 08-31-2014, 04:10 PM
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Default Re: Irony?

"a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often amusing as a result"

one would expect high-profile artists' products to have high-profile pricetags and features, but many are cheap knockoffs, which is at least amusing to me. QED.
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Old 08-31-2014, 04:14 PM
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Default Re: Irony?

I wonder how many Todd Sucherman signature snares Stanbridge has built and sold. $5,000 a snare, I doubt very many. So if you were having a signature snare built for you. It can be viewed as a promotional item for exposing your name to the drumming population. Would you rather have 10 people displaying your drum, or 1,000? Then there is the question, do you want high end highly skilled players to be using your drum so the chances of it being recognized as a great sounding instrument attached to your name would be greater, or do you want every hack in his mom's garage who can barely play let alone tune a drum play a drum with your name attached to it?

I bet every endorser has his priorities of what he expects to benefit from the partnership, and money, market niche are what I would think would be the main focus.
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Old 08-31-2014, 09:06 PM
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Default Re: Irony?

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Originally Posted by uniongoon View Post
I wonder how many Todd Sucherman signature snares Stanbridge has built and sold. $5,000 a snare, I doubt very many. So if you were having a signature snare built for you. It can be viewed as a promotional item for exposing your name to the drumming population. Would you rather have 10 people displaying your drum, or 1,000? Then there is the question, do you want high end highly skilled players to be using your drum so the chances of it being recognized as a great sounding instrument attached to your name would be greater, or do you want every hack in his mom's garage who can barely play let alone tune a drum play a drum with your name attached to it?

I bet every endorser has his priorities of what he expects to benefit from the partnership, and money, market niche are what I would think would be the main focus.
Absolutely, but also- not everybody with a lot of money to spend on drums is a high-end, highly skilled player :) Maybe there should be an audition process for the right to get sold a signature Simon Phillips-Approved drum? (i joke but this would actually be amazing.)
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Old 08-31-2014, 09:33 PM
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Default Re: Irony?

Never understood why people pick on the song "Ironic" as not being Ironic. Most of the situations in the song are, but not all.

A man who is terrified of flying, when flying is statistically the safest way to travel, finally bites the bullet and flies, and his plane crashes, Is that not ironic?
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Old 08-31-2014, 09:34 PM
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Default Re: Irony?

The other side of my previous post is, how many true fans of any drummer
are true fan boys that want that drum or to spend that much.
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Old 08-31-2014, 10:30 PM
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Default Re: Irony?

Yep, say the artist gets a 1% royalty...

1% of a 300 dollar drum is 3 dollars, and 1% of a 1000 dollar drum is 10 dollars, but the sales on the 300 dollar drum is 10 times that of the 1000 dollar drum, and most of the people who want a drum with that artists signature on it are young fan boys who don't have that much money. So for every 1000 dollar drum sold, ten 300 dollar drums are sold. That's 66% more profit in everybody's pocket. It's not an exact duplicate, but it is good enough for the artist to put his name on it. Personally, I would love to have an Omar Hakim signature snare drum with that nice cherry wood sound.
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Old 09-01-2014, 12:15 AM
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Default Re: Irony?

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Originally Posted by mikel View Post
Never understood why people pick on the song "Ironic" as not being Ironic. Most of the situations in the song are, but not all.

A man who is terrified of flying, when flying is statistically the safest way to travel, finally bites the bullet and flies, and his plane crashes, Is that not ironic?
well, irony isn't coincidence. that'd be ironic considering specifically that flying is the safest way to travel, but that's not in the forefront of most people's minds when they think about flying. as for the rest, well...
"An old man turned ninety-eight
He won the lottery and died the next day"
"It's like rain on your wedding day"
"It's the good advice that you just didn't take"
"A traffic jam when you're already late
A no-smoking sign on your cigarette break
It's like ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife
It's meeting the man of my dreams
And then meeting his beautiful wife"
none of those are really ironic, so much as unfortunate coincidences. that is the great irony of "Ironic"- its very tenuous grasp on irony. i don't really think Alanis intended it, though.

i fully understand that this post may be the dumbest, most off-topic thing to post on a drummer's forum.
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Old 09-01-2014, 12:26 AM
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Default Re: Irony?

In the literary context, to be ironic denotes to state one thing while meaning another.
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Old 09-01-2014, 01:22 AM
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Default Re: Irony?

honestly, the wikipedia page contains this discussion already, I probably should have linked there in the first place.

anyways...
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Old 09-01-2014, 02:32 AM
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Default Re: Irony?

When they create a signature snare I'm guessing the endorsee (the artist) would get one of the signature snare drums free, with their name on it to use when ever they like.

I'm working on getting Guru to create a Hollywood Jim Signature Snare.

(I don't care how many they sell.) LOL

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Old 09-01-2014, 02:40 AM
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Default Re: Irony?

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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
That's pretty much it. This may sound blunt, but endorsing artists are a marketing resource to be used as deemed appropriate by the drum company. Ok, it's by agreement of course, nobody's forcing anyone to stand by a specific design, but it's not about the artist having an ego stroking drum naming experience, it's about using that artist's appeal/notoriety to sell drums to a target audience. It therefore follows that the drum will be produced at an appropriate price point for that target audience. No doubt, the artist will receive some consideration in respect of sales, but I don't absolutely know that to be the case.

TBH, it's pretty obvious when an artist has truly steered the design of a snare. Gavin's Protean design is a prime recent example. Most others are simply a naming ceremony with some small tweak the artist/marketing department can build a claim around. It's all about as relevant as "celebrity perfume".
Rest assured, when Andy and Dean build my signature snare, I'll be very much involved in the design process and will absolutely use the drum regularly. Andy, you're free to use my name and I won't ask for a penny of the profits. All I'd demand is that I receive one of the drums as compensation for use of my likeness and name. Let's discuss this off line. :)
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Old 09-01-2014, 02:42 AM
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Default Re: Irony?

I want to rid the world of this ''irony'' term for all the confusion it causes.
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Old 09-01-2014, 03:19 AM
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Default Re: Irony?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post

.... I would totally say, "I want my artist snare based off of your new Reference series, with some bits of carbon fiber and gold in it, to make it mine". Pearl would turn around and say "You got it, we can sell it to your fans for $1899".

....



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Evil


I would totally say, I want my artist snare to sound good enough, and be inexpensive enough that every drummer will have one.
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Old 09-01-2014, 03:45 AM
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"An old man turned ninety-eight, He won the lottery and died the next day" = bad luck
"It's like rain on your wedding day" = also bad luck
"It's the good advice that you just didn't take"= stupidity
"A traffic jam when you're already late = (you guessed it) bad luck
A no-smoking sign on your cigarette break (can't you just move to another location)??
It's like ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife = (I don't even know what this means)
It's meeting the man of my dreams, And then meeting his beautiful wife = well, that's life
none of those are really ironic, so much as unfortunate coincidences. that is the great irony of "Ironic"- its very tenuous grasp on irony. i don't really think Alanis intended it, though.- Maybe she did (she did play God in the movie "Dogma" after all)?

i fully understand that this post may be the dumbest, most off-topic thing to post on a drummer's forum.- I completely agree!
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Old 09-01-2014, 12:24 PM
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I know its off topic but how can rain on your wedding day be a coincidence?

It would only be a coincidence if you had been married before and it also rained on that day.

Not knowing what it means, ie 10000 spoons when all you need is a knife? It means you might have almost every tool ever invented in your tool box, but If you don't have the one you need to do the job you still cant do the job. That is ironic, if you have spent all that money and still dont........oh who cares.
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Old 09-01-2014, 02:08 PM
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Default Re: Irony?

The people that emulate him and would want a signature snare drum of his are probably high school age. Most don't have $1899 laying around.
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Old 09-01-2014, 02:25 PM
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Default Re: Irony?

OK, this is an example of irony: A guy is extremely afraid of cancer. He understands that certain foods are associated with increased likelihood of cancer so he stops eating them. In fact, he alters his diet in hopes of warding off cancer. It turns out that some new supplements he is using are in fact potent carcinogens and he dies of cancer before the month is out.

Irony is all about an outcome that is the opposite of what was expected.

Back on topic, "signature" items are generally things I avoid. There are several reasons for this. One is that I recognize that the name is, in many cases, a marketing gimmick designed to increase the apparent value of said product. That is, it is likely over-priced. Another is that I don't want to serve as an advertising vehicle for someone else's career.
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Old 09-01-2014, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hewitt2 View Post
In the literary context, to be ironic denotes to state one thing while meaning another.
Isn't that sarcasm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood Jim View Post

I'm working on getting Guru to create a Hollywood Jim Signature Snare.
You're clearly not working hard enough ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by steadypocket View Post
Rest assured, when Andy and Dean build my signature snare, I'll be very much involved in the design process and will absolutely use the drum regularly. Andy, you're free to use my name and I won't ask for a penny of the profits. All I'd demand is that I receive one of the drums as compensation for use of my likeness and name. Let's discuss this off line. :)
You lost it when you used the word "demand" ;) Anyhow, isn't the idea of a signature snare for the manufacturer to realise an increase in sales? ;) ;) ;)

Both yourself & Jim may have stumbled on the next chapter of disgusting sales tactics after "endorsement" deals though. The signature deal! Here's how it goes - we inflate the price by 300%, then offer you a signature deal snare with your name on it, & a whopping 70% discount. Doesn't that sound great!! I'll be jumping all over that (NOT!).

Instead, I've clearly opted for the strategy of mildly insulting potential & existing customers via a forum ;)
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Old 09-01-2014, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
You're clearly not working hard enough ;)
Hey come on now !

A couple of weeks ago I practiced for a solid 20 minutes !

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Old 09-01-2014, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
Isn't that sarcasm?
...

The signature deal! Here's how it goes - we inflate the price by 300%, then offer you a signature deal snare with your name on it, & a whopping 70% discount....

Instead, I've clearly opted for the strategy of mildly insulting potential & existing customers via a forum ;)
Wait, so you're saying that you're going to be making a JimFiore signature snare after all? If I get a 70% discount on something inflated to 300% of the original, then it's roughly the same price as the original but it's now customized to my specs. Sounds pretty good to me.

Or was that sarcasm? Or perhaps a mild insult? Or are you just not that good at math?

Wait, did I just mildly insult you sarcastically on a drum forum? Am I you now? This is getting confusing...
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Old 09-01-2014, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
Instead, I've clearly opted for the strategy of mildly insulting potential & existing customers via a forum ;)
Hoo boy, we have fun here! :)

My signature snare would be 2 plies of a lightweight fibrous material wrapped very tightly around themselves with an extra-hard "projection boosting" cylinder in the middle. It doesn't have heads or hoops, but the outer material is perforated every few inches for easy tearing, and it's very absorbent.
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Old 09-01-2014, 11:23 PM
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Default Re: Irony?

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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
but it's not about the artist having an ego stroking drum naming experience, it's about using that artist's appeal/notoriety to sell drums to a target audience.
Depends on the artist and product.

Many signature items are a result of an artist having a desire to have something, and a company having a desire to make it happen and market it.

Some "signature" items are just the company going to the artist, saying "we want to put your name on an item, chose something".

And some are a result of an artist saying "hey, that guy a signature item, I want one too", or "I have an idea, make it or else I'm leaving for another brand".

And sometimes, it's just politics.

Dave Weckl said straight up in his recent interview in Drumhead magazine part of his decision to leave Zildjian for Sabian was Zildjian refused to pay him royalties for his designs, and Sabian said they would.
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Old 09-02-2014, 01:28 AM
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Default Re: Irony?

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Supportively, when Eddie Van Halen switched from Music Man to Peavy for his signature guitar line, one of the reasons was to make the guitar more widely available for his fans.
EVH goes nuclear when ANY change is made on his designs... down to pickup wire... he dumped on Peavey as well.

Wiki "After parting with Peavey, Edward Van Halen joined forces with Charvel to produce replicas of various striped guitar models, the Charvel EVH Art Series.

In 2007, a single run of 300 official replicas of his original Frankenstein guitar were made available by Fender under the EVH brand, in strict collaboration with Edward Van Halen. The guitars were priced at $25,000 and had a massive demand.

After the 2007-08 concert tour, the evolution of the Wolfgang became available to the public, with the EVH Wolfgang (in 2008) and the EVH Wolfgang Special (in 2010), as well as an amplifier series and several guitars accessories and merchandise"

I would surmise that EVH is picky and gets pissed at the drop of a hat...
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Last edited by GeoB; 09-02-2014 at 08:44 PM.
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Old 09-02-2014, 04:03 AM
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Default Re: Irony?

I'm pretty glad that this doesn't happen when it comes to cymbals, though- a lot of my favorite cymbals (or at least some of the most interesting to me, especially in Meinl's catalog) are signature models, i.e. our own Derek Roddy's Serpents ride & hats, Rodney Holmes' Spectrum ride & hats, Mike Johnston's Transition ride, and of course Benny Greb's Sand series. Others that come to mind are Travis Orbin's LTD China (though he's no longer with TRX), and wow, can't believe I forgot to mention Dave Weckl's Evolution and Legacy series. What incredible cymbals.
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Old 09-02-2014, 04:17 AM
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Default Re: Irony?

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I would surmise that EVH is picky and gets pissed at the drop of a hat...
He's gone though three lead singers, a bass player, and an ex-wife, ya' think? lol
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