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  #1  
Old 04-30-2012, 03:18 PM
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Default Speeeeed!!

Thinking about myself asking other drummers of the bpm's they can do with specific techniques/rudiments/patterns in various threads every now and then, it just struck me to create a separate thread on this.

I'm perfectly aware of some relations like speed being the by-product of control and that speed is a mere parameter and without music, just exercise. And to practice slow etc. - that's not what I'm going for in this thread. I'm just curious to learn what some people can do so I would know what is humanly possible, and this might serve as more inspiration for practice or simply to exchange some info regarding the flashier stuff (which might be easy patterns but brought up to terrific speed). I'm not intending this to be a show-off thread but just so I'd have an idea in terms of bpm. Because I've learned that even a number of pro drummers simply don't care of bpm's and were unable to give me bpm values from the top of their heads.

I'm also perfectly aware (on my own experience) that "maximum speed" doesn't necessarily have to correlate to "workable speed". Judging from my experience on the (el.) guitar I guess that the better the drummer (those who do focus on technique/speed), the less of a difference there is between their comfy and max speed. Personally my gap between those tempo ranges is substantial, depending on the technique/pattern.

No, speed isn't everything, and yes, any drummer shouldn't spend all the time on technical stuff etc. - I hope this is clear and that people won't comment on such well-known common sense stuff too much _on this thread_.

---------------

As a starter, here's some bpm's of myself. I think it's also helpful to not only give the bpm's but also give some brief info on the technique or whether this feels ultra hard or what duration can be maintained with this and that pattern.

Paradiddle: max = 250 bpm/16th notes (HQ RealFeel pad), both matched and trad grip. 8 bars. I think I hit the same speed with the left hand leading, also. Both matched and trad (with most stuff my max speed would be with matched grip, trad being a bit slower). Comfy range for paradiddle (the basic variation) would be anything below 200 bpm. I've started working on the other paradiddle variations just recently, those are way harder for me.

Max speed single strokes: 280 bpm 16th (=8th notes per hand), for about 5 seconds. Same max speed with right and left hand ATM. American grip, a combination of wrists and fingers because at max speed I can't apply only one technique in its pure form - when pushing my hands will find their own way. I do pay close attention to technique when playing in my more comfy tempo zones though.

Feet, heel up/double pedal: 240 bpm/16th notes for about 6-8 bars (dw2002 double pedal, and HQ RealFeel kick practice pad w/ a towel on top of the rubber, and playing barefoot).
(More bpm with doubles/heel-toe but haven't done any max speed tests w/ doubles for a while. Did 270 bpm/16th notes for 3 minutes but that was months ago.) Super comfy speed range for doubles is anything up to about 180 bpm. Starts to feel harder from about 220-230 bpm.

Heel-toe/doubles endurance: 240 bpm/16th notes, for 6.38 minutes (months ago).

Heel-up endurance: 40 minutes @ 200 bpm.

I'm into drums for 1.75 years now, have a lot of time for practice (a good deal of which is actually having some "real" work to do which involves the hands only so the feet are free to practice on the double pedal or hihat at that time). Haven't got a full kit (yet) and no real plans what to do with what I "can" (which isn't much) - I'm drumming for fun and because I'm enjoying the physical/motoric challenge. (Coming from the guitar which I've been playing for 21 years now, with a focus on technique also. I'm way faster in drumming though, haha, at least if not counting in techniques like tapping.)
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Old 04-30-2012, 03:29 PM
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Default Re: Speeeeed!!

I've always got the impression that the hand speed 'gold standard' for singles, doubles and paradiddles is the 200 bpm mark, where the rudiment is held for 1 minute and is played cleanly and evenly - perfect note spacing and each stroke played at the same height. Attaining this standard would ensure that the rudiment is usable in a musical context ie. it can be played around all the voices of the kit reliably. Is a 5 second burst of 280 in anyway useful? That said, your foot development in 1.75 years is prodigious.
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Old 04-30-2012, 03:38 PM
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Default Re: Speeeeed!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonescrusher View Post
I've always got the impression that the hand speed 'gold standard' for singles, doubles and paradiddles is the 200 bpm mark, where the rudiment is held for 1 minute and is played cleanly and evenly - perfect note spacing and each stroke played at the same height. Attaining this standard would ensure that the rudiment is usable in a musical context ie. it can be played around all the voices of the kit reliably. Is a 5 second burst of 280 in anyway useful? That said, your foot development in 1.75 years is prodigious.
I totally agree. It's more important to play in clean for a minute than to be able to go all out for 5 seconds. Being able to play it clean and precisely is more important overall.
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Old 04-30-2012, 03:41 PM
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Default Re: Speeeeed!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonescrusher View Post
I've always got the impression that the hand speed 'gold standard' for singles, doubles and paradiddles is the 200 bpm mark, where the rudiment is held for 1 minute and is played cleanly and evenly - perfect note spacing and each stroke played at the same height. Attaining this standard would ensure that the rudiment is usable in a musical context ie. it can be played around all the voices of the kit reliably.
That's a _great_ benchmark! I'll try this approach - maintaining perfect control for 1 minute is a long time and an achievement.
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Originally Posted by jonescrusher View Post
Is a 5 second burst of 280 in anyway useful?
To some extent - yes. Pushing max speed results in anything slower becoming more easy. (Didn't Eddie van Halen say something like "If you can play something fast then playing the same thing slower will be easier." (Although this isn't a must - I've noticed every speed range has its own challenges so it makes sense to practice throughout the entire speed range.) That's a good by-product, too. Now if someone's going to implement 280 bpm stuff into his/her real music this means that they might have to cope with 300 bpm stuff to do something musical with it, or have some headroom.
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That said, your foot development in 1.75 years is prodigious.
Thanks! While I am glad I hit that speed (months ago actually) within relatively short time I've got so accustomed to progress that I simply expect my hand/foot speed to climb up a few bpm's every now and then. But I've already hit a speed range (at least with max speed) which is telling me that any progress from now on will take multiple time. As to heel up/240 - I'm absolutely stuck at that speed for some time now, seems I've reached a plateau.

I stated that speed was heel up. Because I've been neglecting flatfoot for some time, having started to work on this with some delay. With full leg motion/flatfoot I have to work hard to get at 200-220 bpm, and this is for short durations. I'm hoping that this will get much easier with time. Heel-up/ankle motion is way easier for me. So I'm quite not well balanced technically meaning some stuff is way more up the speed range while other is underdeveloped. I'm dreaming of the day where I might be in balance whether it's singles, doubles or mixed patterns.

When doing max tests for hand speed (I've done them 2 times recently) I'm first warming up, then doing runs @ 200 bpm and play for a while (1-2 minutes). Then 220, 240 runs & going for as long as I can. So I'm gradually climbing up to 280. Right hand, most recent test: It's 5 seconds @ 280 but 12 secs @ 260, 27 secs @ 250 etc. You get the idea.

Last edited by Arky; 04-30-2012 at 03:57 PM.
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Old 04-30-2012, 05:04 PM
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Default Re: Speeeeed!!

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Originally Posted by Arky View Post
Pushing max speed results in anything slower becoming more easy. (Didn't Eddie van Halen say something like "If you can play something fast then playing the same thing slower will be easier." (
I'd say that approach goes against convention, it's far more reliable and efficient to practice slowly and thoroughly, and build up from that foundation. That's particularly important when it comes to note spacing and microtiming issues.

The headroom concept is an important one; i've never been called upon to play 200bpm singles, or jazz ride at 320, but i'll work to attain those speeds to ensure comfort at lower speeds. It's just that it's more sensible to work up to those speeds rather than diving in at top whack and trying to squeeze something out (ooh-err).
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Old 04-30-2012, 05:21 PM
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Default Re: Speeeeed!!

I agree. Keep in mind pushing myself @ 280 bpm makes a tiny fraction of my practice time - only when pushing to the max every few weeks - that's it. Or if I see/hear some fast drumming I'd try check out whether I'm up to that speed hands and feet wise (most of the time - yes, haha). I just tried to reply on your question on what max speed might be good for.

Everybody has a 5 seconds maximum speed limit for something, from the world's worst to the world's best drummer. Some of them just don't know/care because they never checked out what thing it is they can hold for 5 seconds, not more ;-)

I think that headroom concept was also mentioned by John Riley (if I remember correctly from his excerpt of his DVD - that sample video is on DW somewhere.) This concept makes so much sense to me. (Does the term "footroom" exist? Anyway, good to have some.)

Last edited by Arky; 04-30-2012 at 11:02 PM.
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Old 04-30-2012, 08:13 PM
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Default Re: Speeeeed!!

Pretty cool thread.
I haven't really been into "speed" myself. The styles of music "the speed thing" works for isn't something that I'd play, but, I have practiced stuff faster so I can do them more comfortably at slower speeds.
Works for some things better than others.

Faster singles weren't as much an issue for me as both hands doing singles at the same time at fast speeds (such as on snare and ft). That drove me nuts trying to get it down cleanly haha!

Good luck to everyone that gets into this kind of thing!
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Old 04-30-2012, 08:31 PM
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Default Re: Speeeeed!!

I just started getting seriously into practicing single stroke rolls, paradiddles etc. with the aim of pushing my speed. My single stroke roll maxes out at 170bpm, but that is playing solidly for however long. Paradiddles about the same. One handed I can sometimes get up to 110bpm 16th notes on either hand (trad grip), but I find that I tense up so I stop, but I can feel that the rebound is in the stick at that tempo it just needs to be controlled by me in a relaxed way.

I've found that since pushing my speed like this, playing at a more useful tempo is so much easier. I can focus on accent placement at useable tempos without worrying that the rudiment underneath the accents will collapse.
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Old 04-30-2012, 09:09 PM
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Default Re: Speeeeed!!

Your foot speed is great for this short amount of playing.

I have been playing for twenty plus years, and generally when it gets to 240-280 I have some trouble if I haven't played in a while.

Think Hate Eternal or really fast death metal double bass work. I looked at as an accomplishment in my drumming to learn this, even if I don't play DM/BM all the time, or at all.

This is a great thread idea.

I haven't clocked myself ina while, but your a motivation for me to get back on the pad and see, WITH a metronome.

This could be a thread to help people in trouble areas with certain rudiments, techniques, or anything related to bpms and playing.

Great idea
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:33 PM
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Default Re: Speeeeed!!

That's a very interesting thread Arky, I've never actually contemplated such an approach to speed related bpm's value before, I will certainely give it a go and see what I'm coming up with as an end result :)

I tend to increase or reduce speed of my practices using subdivisions changes and permutations accross the four limbs from a single metronome pulse, going through quarters, 8th notes, 16th notes, 32nd notes and 64th notes, in binary and ternary patterns, so generally the bpm value is much lower than the one you've listed in the OP :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonescrusher View Post
I'd say that approach goes against convention, it's far more reliable and efficient to practice slowly and thoroughly, and build up from that foundation. That's particularly important when it comes to note spacing and microtiming issues.
I would agree in principle, and often my approach to new patterns will follow that logical approach, however, there's numerous patterns which I find genuilely easier to play at faster tempo than a slowed down version, certain patterns have a "natural" range of tempos, anything above or indeed below that given range is difficult to master for me :)
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:09 PM
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Default Re: Speeeeed!!

MAD,
sure, I'm switching gear, too - going up and down the subdivisions (including triplets of course). I just find it easier to work with up to 16th triplets but not 32nd or even 64th notes, that's too many note flags for me. And 200 bpm might sound cooler than 100, haha. Actually I do use half time clicks a lot because although it's the same physical speed, having a click going at half time creates feels more relaxed to me. Typically I'm using 2-minute click MP3's which came with a multi-DVD tutorial package.

PS: My max speed increase with paradiddle (AFAIR) was 168 - 184 - 208 - 216 - 240 - 250. 250 was about a month ago. I'm doing those tests every now and then, not once a week or something. And my first max speed with single stroke roll I remember was... a mere 144, haha. [EDIT: It was first 138, then 144. Then 160...]

Last edited by Arky; 05-03-2012 at 01:46 AM.
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Old 05-01-2012, 01:17 AM
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Default Re: Speeeeed!!

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MAD,
sure, I'm switching gear, too - going up and down the subdivisions (including triplets of course). I just find it easier to work with up to 16th triplets but not 32nd or even 64th notes, that's too many note flags for me. And 200 bpm might sound cooler than 100, haha. Actually I do use half time clicks a lot because although it's the same physical speed, having a click going at half time creates feels more relaxed to me. Typically I'm using 2-minute click MP3's which came with a multi-DVD tutorial package.

PS: My max speed increase with paradiddle (AFAIR) was 168 - 184 - 208 - 216 - 240 - 250. 250 was about a month ago. I'm doing those tests every now and then, not once a week or something. And my first max speed with single stroke roll I remember was... a mere 144, haha.
can you post a video of you playing paradiddles with 250 bpm as your quarter note?
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Old 05-01-2012, 02:41 AM
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Default Re: Speeeeed!!

In my mid 60's I have no real speed, and my chops are on the wane...BUT, I make it a point
to Swing the House! I hear a lot of young cats who have chops but can't swing...and THAT
keeps me working!
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Old 05-01-2012, 04:03 AM
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Default Re: Speeeeed!!

You play 16th note paradiddles at 250? WTF!!!??

That is crazy fast for anyone IMHO.

I am not far behind you time wise but half way there in bpm. Really impressive.
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Old 05-01-2012, 04:36 AM
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You play 16th note paradiddles at 250? WTF!!!??

That is crazy fast for anyone IMHO.

I am not far behind you time wise but half way there in bpm. Really impressive.
I'll believe it when I see it

I know drum corp. players who are 20 years deep who can barely do that
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Old 05-01-2012, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Gvdadrummasum View Post
I'll believe it when I see it
Ok, I'll try to do a video. I have a low standard digicam (usually using it for taking pictures, but not videos) and zero experience in video editing & YT uploading. If it doesn't work out with my digicam I'll either come over to a friend to have him do the recording or buy a dedicated videocam - those are ridiculously cheap these days. One day somebody had to ask for video proof ;-)
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I know drum corp. players who are 20 years deep who can barely do that
Now this is surprising me. I've created this thread to find out which tempos can be done. I've found a drummer on YouTube (he passed away at under 30 y.o.) who demonstrates paradiddle @ 270 and even applies this speed to the whole kit. And someone on that "Anyone study the snare seriously" thread mentioned 310 bpm for paradiddle - that's a good deal more than 250! I focused on the paradiddle to "get fast". I think I am "fast" now (goal accomplished for now) but many players can do all the variations at the same speed, I can't.
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Old 05-01-2012, 10:16 AM
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Default Re: Speeeeed!!

A 250 BPM paradiddle, translates to 1000 hits per minute, that's so fast, that's more than 16 hits per second. That's crazy fast. I'd like to see that. How long can you maintain that for? 8 bars? How many seconds is that? Anyone who gets fast in less than 2 years...it's not supposed to go that quick lol. I hope you can back this stuff up.
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Old 05-01-2012, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
A 250 BPM paradiddle, translates to 1000 hits per minute, that's so fast, that's more than 16 hits per second. That's crazy fast. I'd like to see that. How long can you maintain that for? 8 bars? How many seconds is that? Anyone who gets fast in less than 2 years...it's not supposed to go that quick lol. I hope you can back this stuff up.
Larry, many years ago I did a max speed test on the electric guitar. The result was 22.2 notes a second (left hand legato - no right hand picking involved). And there are guys who are faster than that! (Check out Rusty Cooley...)

Take a look at those WFD results... You'll find results in the 1.300-1.100 hits per minute range. I could do 1000 hits, too if I could hold my speed for that long. Maybe I'm just a few months away from holding 250 bpm for 1 minute, that'll make 1000 hits.

I said those 250 bpm/paradidle were for 8 bars. Haven't calculated this but going by feel I'd say this makes some 10-12 seconds altogether. (I'm wrong - read on.)
Well let's do the math... 60 divided by 250 = duration of a quarter note = 0.24 seconds. x4 = duration of 1 bar = 0.96 seconds. x8 = duration of 8 bars = 7.68 seconds. I see...
I never said I can hold 250 bpm/paradiddle for a minute. Maybe one day, but that WOULD be crazy! (Somebody tell me I'm daydreaming, haha.)

[EDIT: Just for clarification - Probably doing 1 minute @ 250 bpm = 1000 hits, I was meaning _any_ hand technique/pattern to get this, not necessarily w/ paradiddle. Because going from 7.68 seconds to 60 seconds _with paradiddle_ is way too much to pull this off in a few months. The paradiddle may never happen for me @ 250 for a whole minute - I just meant doing 1000 hits a minute, playing e.g. a single stroke roll w/ American grip & fingers or French grip, or playing doubles.]

Last edited by Arky; 05-05-2012 at 02:46 AM. Reason: clarification
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Old 05-01-2012, 10:33 AM
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Default Re: Speeeeed!!

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Larry, many years ago I did a max speed test on the electric guitar. The result was 22.2 notes a second (left hand legato - no right hand picking involved). And there are guys who are faster than that! (Check out Rusty Cooley...)

Take a look at those WFD results... You'll find results in the 1.300-1.100 hits per minute range. I could do 1000 hits, too if I could hold my speed for that long. Maybe I'm just a few months away from holding 250 bpm for 1 minute, that'll make 1000 hits.
I don't see the correlation between guitar notes and drum hits unless you use one finger 22 times a second...maybe I'm not understanding what legato means, how many fingers do you use? But hey more power to you. Your results are not typical. If you've been drumming for less than 2 years, and you are perhaps a few months away from doing 1000 beats in a minute...you should be publishing a book on gaining speed in record time.
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Old 05-01-2012, 10:43 AM
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Default Re: Speeeeed!!

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Originally Posted by Gvdadrummasum View Post
I'll believe it when I see it

I know drum corp. players who are 20 years deep who can barely do that
I'd also like to see a video!
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Old 05-01-2012, 10:45 AM
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Larry,
I agree those results are quick. But I started as late as at age 37 so I simply don't have the time to invest 15 years or something to crunch some bpm (I spent a good deal of my life on guitar techniques, don't have another life to do the same with drums). Those 240 bpm on footwork/heel up was something which took me about 7 months (starting from zero)! No progress since that time though, but considering 240 isn't bad, I'm not complaining.

I don't want to bore anybody with guitar stuff but just to clear up: I was doing that test with sextuplet patterns played on the high e string. I was sliding up and down after playing that pattern 1 time, and that slide made it a 7-tuplet. I don't remember the exact calcultation but the speed I was pushing myself towards was in the 210 bpm range. Those patterns involved finger combinations 1-3-4 or 1-2-4 (1=index, 4=pinky).

Ok, let's just ignore the bpm's I've given relating to myself as long as I don't provide video proof. Let's go on and see what others have to contribute. This thread isn't about me, ok? ;-)

More on topic, and also addressing Larry's idea of writing a book (hahaha - Larry, you're a creative guy!) - here's some thoughts on how to go for progress. What works for somebody doesn't necessarily work for others. You have to find out what works best for you - when to practice (it might not matter at all, or some prefer to practice in the morning, evening etc.), how long to practice, how you're structuring your practice. I was focusing on technique/speed so that was where my results are. I said months ago that for now I'm doing that "strategy" to just "get into it" mechanically while lacking in terms of groove, style. This is what I will address at a later time, or gradually grow into. I'm still in the "learn the mechanics, and push it" phase. Makes sense to me (and has worked well so far). I also want to mention that there's so much one can do for overall improvement in addition to actually sitting at a kit, or to even practice while being away from a kit. That concept of practicing (patterns, rhythm) in one's mind is really great - I haven't really explored that yet - has been discussed on other threads.

Then there's the purely physical aspect. I do some sports (running, sometimes weight training) to stay fit and for some overall endurance. You don't have to do so but if you're going for high speed and holding this for minutes (e.g. heel up @ 240 bpm for 40 minutes, as I did about 2 months ago), some degree of physical conditioning (from running, cycling, weight training) certainly helps. It's not a must but a "should"/"can't hurt". I'm also doing isolated left hand exercises a lot - while being at the PC, with the right hand doing all the stuff, I would practice trad grip on a pad or snare (& pad on top usually). I try to make practice time. There's lots of ways to work on various stuff. Check your diet (there's huge potential for me in that field!). Try to stay healthy (or frankly: don't drink or smoke!). Etc.

I'm trying to implement multi-tasking in my life. Took me some experimenting on what works and what doesn't. I remember a discussion on DW with a guy who said: What? You're practicing while not 100% focusing on drumming but watching the TV or doing other stuff? Mike Mangini doesn't do this, he's always focusing 100%. (And I - meaning that guy - am a disciple of Mangini so I would never practice at the TV.) As I said - for some it works, for others it doesn't. I'd say everybody could find out how to max one's practice time (including time being away from the kit and pad!) or to combine things to save overall time. I think it does boil down to the time you can find to practice (whether 100% focused or multi-tasking). This has actually changed my life. E.g. I'm practicing doubles on the feet while working at the PC. Took some time to learn this but it's working for me. I couldn't imagine to first do this, then do that, purely consecutively. I'm trying to "layer" various things. One can learn this to some degree. Give it a try, it's your time you're saving.

I'm imagining a conversation with that "I'm practicing like Mike Mangini [who is a superb drummer, I'm using him for example purposes here] - only 100% focus" guy (let's call him the "MMD" - Mike Mangini disciple).
MMD: What? You max out at 240 bpm w/ heel up?
Arky: Yes. Can you do this? (Just guessing that he can't.)
MMD: No. How did you do it? How long did it take you? (I'm playing for... [let's say 6-8] years.)
Arky: I hit that speed in 7 months. Multi-tasking. Making practice time. Do several things at the same time. (= NOT always having 100% focus.) And yes, sometimes I'm practicing at the TV, too. (Has worked with the guitar for years - at least for me.)
MMD: I see... (Returns to his 100% focused practice routine and being a Mike Mangini disciple.)]
...just an example that some things work for some, not for everybody, and that some people choose to do things in a certain way and maybe are passing the chance to optimize/maximize by trying to squeeze more what can be done into the same amount of time.

Last edited by Arky; 05-01-2012 at 12:02 PM.
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Old 05-01-2012, 11:24 AM
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Interesting findings, great read. How I wish I'm as fast as you ;C
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Old 05-01-2012, 01:03 PM
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Default Re: Speeeeed!!

All this speed talk is all very well, but have you done a "2 minute solo challenge" video? I want to see where it's all getting you.
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Old 05-01-2012, 01:05 PM
cp84 cp84 is offline
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Default Re: Speeeeed!!

hi arky. its not that i don't believe you. i'd just like to see a video.
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Old 05-01-2012, 01:16 PM
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Default Re: Speeeeed!!

Once again - this is not about me. Come on, what have you to contribute to this thread? ;-)

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Originally Posted by Liebe zeit View Post
All this speed talk is all very well, but have you done a "2 minute solo challenge" video? I want to see where it's all getting you.
No, I haven't. But I gave it a thought. But hey, I'm a beginner basically so why should I even attempt to mess with the real (wo)men? Also, and as you may well be aware, to do some interesting solos doesn't mean you need high speed or blistering chops. So that question to me sounds a bit like asking an extreme drummer to just play some funk. If he/she can't play some funk - is this a sign of having completely wasted one's practice time? Considering I've started drumming with the initial goal of developing some understanding of how drummers think to get better at arranging drum samples on the PC, I think I've come a long way. I didn't expected to get hooked.

Liebe Zeit, how long have you been into drumming until you recorded your first solo and uploaded it onto a drummer forum? Under 2 years? Just curious.
Also, I'm not selecting what to practice on the basis of what others think of this. Why am I drumming? To please others? No, to please... me! So "where is this getting me"? I'm still on my way, the journey hasn't ended yet and I don't know where all this will/might take me. No idea, really.

Honestly I feel I'm so much lacking maturity in terms of drumming to do anything like a solo so it doesn't make sense. I could record myself improvising on the pad for 1 minute but hey, that would be a mix of various rudiments, nothing more. I can't express myself freely on the drums because I haven't acquired the means to do so (at least not yet).
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Originally Posted by cp84 View Post
hi arky. its not that i don't believe you. i'd just like to see a video.
This is perfectly clear. I'd like to have some proof in that case, too if someone is claiming this and that. Without proof it's just blabbering.

I've just checked my current paradiddle speed and must say that 250 bpm... that was on a very good day. It was a bit sloppy when I just played it, even 230-240 wasn't easy. So I'll push it the next few days to get it "more real" for video purposes.
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Old 05-01-2012, 01:18 PM
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Default Re: Speeeeed!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arky View Post
Liebe Zeit, how long have you been into drumming until you recorded your first solo and uploaded it onto a drummer forum? Under 2 years? Just curious.
Yeah, like you, I've been playing about 18 months. The video is on the 2 minute solo thread

It's just a bunch of paradiddles, and not very fast at all http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyJoh...ature=youtu.be
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Old 05-01-2012, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Liebe zeit View Post
Yeah, like you, I've been playing about 18 months. The video is on the 2 minute solo thread

It's just a bunch of paradiddles, and not very fast at all http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyJoh...ature=youtu.be
Hey, that's a cool video! Well kudos to you then.

Ok, I could try something similar. No Mozambique or clave but what I've been doing recently was spreading rudiments between ride & hihat/snare plus have the feet going in machine gun mode. Even a standard paradiddle sounds super cool if you're using various zones on the ride to get different sounds out of it (I like my Meinl Byzance ride - got it used).

You know, I did follow that solo thread at the beginning, but the amount of videos and posts got so overwhelming for me so I just disengaged.
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Old 05-01-2012, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Arky View Post
spreading rudiments between ride & hihat/snare plus have the feet going in machine gun mode. Even a standard paradiddle sounds super cool if you're using various zones on the ride to get different sounds out of it (I like my Meinl Byzance ride - got it used).
That sounds like a great idea! Give it a go! I just used a digital camera for the video and recorded on my laptop on a decent USB mic, then added the latter to the former
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Old 05-02-2012, 12:33 AM
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Default Re: Speeeeed!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arky View Post
Considering I've started drumming with the initial goal of developing some understanding of how drummers think to get better at arranging drum samples on the PC, I think I've come a long way. I didn't expected to get hooked.
Ha!!! ...it's becoming an addiction, isn't it? :) It's all good man, I understand the feeling, and unlike fags, drugs or alcohol, it's a pretty safe stuff to become addicted too ;-))

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arky View Post
So "where is this getting me"? I'm still on my way, the journey hasn't ended yet and I don't know where all this will/might take me. No idea, really.
...well, hopefully to make some music, as a drummer of course, you already did it as a guitarist :))

With all the rudiments, techniques you've practiced for some 20 months, you're ready to play behind a proper kit, and since you have already worked out the important but relative aspect of Speeeeed, lol, you could apply your aqquired experience to the kit, but focusing on control, sounds, dynamics, time, space, coordinations, styles, creativity, tuning, the list is almost endless :)

... as far as soloing on a drumset, you're not a genuine beginner, 21 years of playing guitars, writing music and your general experience as a musician gives you an edge, and you'll probably be surprised as to what you'll play on a good inspired moment behind the drums, but that's another thread's topic, haha :)
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Old 05-03-2012, 09:27 PM
JoeLackey JoeLackey is offline
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Default Re: Speeeeed!!

It's all in technique and proper motion. Attempting to improve in speed is a grey area, in my opinion. Do you need it? No. Does it come in handy? Yes. I will never have to play paradiddles at 280 BPM, singles at 280 BPM, and other rudiments/hybrid rudiments at 200 BPM+ for an extended period of time, but I can. Most of your favorite drummers can do all of this, as well, but you never see them do it, because it's not necessary unless you're planning to audition for Dragonforce or Dimmu Borgir. Applying the Moeller Method is where you'll see an increase in speed for any type of playing. Jim Chapin preached this his entire life and it works. It works very well. Also, DCI drummers achieve this through proper technique and training to specific muscles, or specific hand/finger movement. I would never suggest practicing speed when you're lacking in groove, timing, or overall musicianship. If you do so anyway, let me tell you: you're headed in the wrong direction. Be honest with yourself and find out what you need to do in order to become a better drummer.
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Old 05-03-2012, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeLackey View Post
It's all in technique and proper motion. Attempting to improve in speed is a grey area, in my opinion. Do you need it? No. Does it come in handy? Yes. I will never have to play paradiddles at 280 BPM, singles at 280 BPM, and other rudiments/hybrid rudiments at 200 BPM+ for an extended period of time, but I can. Most of your favorite drummers can do all of this, as well, but you never see them do it, because it's not necessary unless you're planning to audition for Dragonforce or Dimmu Borgir. Applying the Moeller Method is where you'll see an increase in speed for any type of playing. Jim Chapin preached this his entire life and it works. It works very well. Also, DCI drummers achieve this through proper technique and training to specific muscles, or specific hand/finger movement. I would never suggest practicing speed when you're lacking in groove, timing, or overall musicianship. If you do so anyway, let me tell you: you're headed in the wrong direction. Be honest with yourself and find out what you need to do in order to become a better drummer.
please post a video of you playing paradiddles at 280
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Old 05-03-2012, 10:04 PM
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Default Re: Speeeeed!!

Yeah. My guess with some of this stuff is your mind and ears can play tricks on you when playing along with a metronome. There are times at really fast speeds when you believe you're keeping up but you're actually not.

Matt Smith talked about this a lot in the context of WFD and how trying to use a metronome at those speeds was often fool's gold for the player who thought he was cranking out championship speeds. Then the player would try the same thing on a Drumometer and be shocked at how much slower than expected the results were.
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Old 05-03-2012, 10:12 PM
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Default Re: Speeeeed!!

Back to your OP Arky, I did a quick and dirty clock of myself.

I can do paradiddles comfortably at about 180.

I can single stroke comfortably at 200. I didn't try bursts.

Anything beyond that starts to get sloppy. I haven't worked on straight speed in quite a while though.
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  #34  
Old 05-03-2012, 10:35 PM
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Default Re: Speeeeed!!

Great input - thanks everyone!

@ JoeLackey
Yes, I'd like to see/hear those 280 bpm, too. Or I'll do it myself, probably in 3 years ;-)
Just kiddin'.
I understand your general perspective on speed. I guess you're doing me wrong here (not in terms of me being a "good" drummer in any way - I'm a beginner!), but in terms of my overall orientation (you don't know my orig. stuff).
PS: Dragonforce would be a no-go for me (children music on speed to my ears), but Dimmu... that's serious!

@ 8Mile
Good point! In my max speed regions this might be an issue to some extent, but you'll see/hear for yourself. I have a slow down prog to check the audio - I've never recorded myself drumming, neither the double bass stuff nor handwork - but that prog can slow things down to 10% of the original speed.

@ Larry
Thanks for checking that out, but you know, that's merely numbers. If you needed more speed for the music you're after then you'd have practiced accordingly. What we're practicing depends of what we want/need, right? (Be it for real music or physical conditioning.)

----------------

I haven't forgotten this thread... I'm pushing it for a few days now. Going at 250 bpm in 2-minute MP3 click tracks for a while now (started @ 200, then speeding up in 10 bpm increments) - pushing paradiddle for a few seconds, switching hands, do some slower flams between, switching between matched and trad. It's hard but if I do a few video takes (going to do so at the weekend) there should be some clean runs among them.

Did 4 hours of footwork and a 6 km run afterwards yesterday. Today = feet rest. The foot speed was good, I could hold 240 for a while. As for hands... Feeling some lack of control in my left hand. I'd practice slower stuff to address this but continue to push it for the weekend video takes.

In case I'll survive the weekend and "the drumming community" critique I'll return to more moderate speed for a while, to build more control. I'm sure there won't be any noteworthy speed progress for quite some time, but it might/should get easier to maintain those speeds, with more ease and mixing up more patterns.

Everybody - feel free to post some speed videos (of yourself) of course!!

Last edited by Arky; 05-03-2012 at 10:45 PM.
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Old 05-03-2012, 10:48 PM
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Default Re: Speeeeed!!

Isn't this all just an obsession with speed now? You said yourself you started drumming to help you understand how to programme drum tracks better. Your quest for speed seems totally unrelated to that now, so haven't you drifted from your original aim and ended up down a blind alley? Or is there some purpose or thought out change in your aims that I don't see?
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  #36  
Old 05-03-2012, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liebe zeit View Post
Isn't this all just an obsession with speed now? You said yourself you started drumming to help you understand how to programme drum tracks better. Your quest for speed seems totally unrelated to that now, so haven't you drifted from your original aim and ended up down a blind alley? Or is there some purpose or thought out change in your aims that I don't see?
Ok, this isn't really OT but as you'd like to know:
Obsession? I TEND to get obsessed with what interests me. If you knew me you wouldn't have asked, haha.

Yes, there's no real relationship between getting better insight into a drummer's mind and what I'm doing now. But imagine I'll continue to push it for a while so I'd have serious advantage taking this stuff to the kit (when I'll have one) - going the usual route of starting slow etc. would take a few years more, wouldn't it? I'm doing this for coordination sake, just so I would know how 2xx bpm feel with the hands/feet. Why do I have to postpone this and get into that speed range in, say, 5-10 years? What's the benefit (of "waiting" instead of addressing technique/speed right away)? I'm not feeling I did something wrong, quite the opposite.

I've paused that songwriting/recording stuff temporarily (but want to go on working on the first album soon). One thing I can benefit from is that while I was completely going by ear/instinct when arranging the drum lines I had some year ago, now knowing a bunch of rudiments has hugely expanded my understanding of breaking the more complex stuff down into its fragments (quite similar to the el. guitar and solo stuff). But the music I need those arrangements for isn't fast or mighty complex (at least for drums) so there is some... I wouldn't say discrepancy, but over-motorisation. IMO it's not a blind valley but I came to a fork and chose to go another (not exactly parallel) path for a while.

When I started drumming I didn't know in advance what the outcome would be. I thought I'd just hit some sticks onto a pad, learn 2-3 rudiments and all of a sudden I'd have a deeper understanding of drum arrangement. I wouldn't say I'm in a blind alley now. It's a question of how to apply musically what there is technically. Whatever this will be, it won't be utilised in my current projects. Because those need a _good_ drummer (=being creative, finding the right parts for the song sections), and there's nothing over 144 bpm (if I remember correctly). In terms of speed I'd have enough headroom, haha.

Don't worry, I won't practice speed stuff all the time. There will be a time to get into styles & grooves (which in a way is harder than practicing 16th rolls between the limbs).

Hopefully I'm not boring you with those details. I'm practicing drumming (with a focus on technique/speed) just for fun. This might change any time and head into a new/different direction. I might end up in jazz although this isn't very likely.

[A recent comment of my dad, on me practicing on the double pedal: "If you continue to do this then one day (in the not so distant future) you'll get spastic."]

-------------

@ Matt Smith
Matt, would you mind sharing some speed demon bpm values? Now that would be interesting.

Last edited by Arky; 05-04-2012 at 08:36 AM. Reason: typo
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  #37  
Old 05-03-2012, 11:09 PM
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Default Re: Speeeeed!!

Control first, then enduarance and then push for speed. That's the formula that works for me.

If one wants to be a creative, adaptive and versatile musician it's great to have tons of overhead. I think it's important to be fully conscious of every note though, and develop the ears simultaneously as being a slave to limited but fast technique is no fun. Hence I like to spend some time pushing my physical ability. When I'm working on speed the focus is on endurance and whatever I do I try to keep it interesting and musical.

I don't fully keep track of tempos as I want to be able to switch things up while playing, but I do one handed 16ths as an endurance exercise and those are around 116 bpm now.

Playing music is a whole different ballgame as then the focus can't be on technique.You have to switch things around all the time and because of placement of different surfaces and that you're mainly going for sound, a good feel and musicality there is a different type of endurance needed. The sound of the kit changes your perception and how things feel. This to me is especially true for the bass drum which truly was a pain for me at first. Very different from using my Realfeel pad.
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Last edited by Odd-Arne Oseberg; 05-03-2012 at 11:23 PM.
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Old 05-04-2012, 12:02 AM
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Default Re: Speeeeed!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8Mile View Post
Yeah. My guess with some of this stuff is your mind and ears can play tricks on you when playing along with a metronome. There are times at really fast speeds when you believe you're keeping up but you're actually not.

Matt Smith talked about this a lot in the context of WFD and how trying to use a metronome at those speeds was often fool's gold for the player who thought he was cranking out championship speeds. Then the player would try the same thing on a Drumometer and be shocked at how much slower than expected the results were.
love the new avi pic

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Old 05-04-2012, 02:27 AM
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Default Re: Speeeeed!!

I've tried to stay outta this thread......tried and now failed miserably.

Guys, I wanna see these paradiddles played as 16th notes at 250 and 280bpm.
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Old 05-04-2012, 06:04 AM
JoeLackey JoeLackey is offline
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Default Re: Speeeeed!!

@Arky

Would you like me to post a video?
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Old 05-04-2012, 08:20 AM
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