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  #1  
Old 02-20-2012, 01:19 PM
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Default What on earth is wrong with society!

I was looking at the news. Sports articles often go into the science and art behind what the players do. The music articles seem to mostly talk about the business, the artists' private lives and what's on.

The govt gives far more in grants to sports than the arts. Then there's all the corporate sponsorship. To be fair, both the govt and corporations put a dead hand to almost everything they do. Sure, lots of people play sports themselves but many have had music lessons, and most listen regularly.

I enjoy sports but my point is that it's so much more popular than the arts it's redikulouss! (at least in this country)

I don't geddit. What the [expletive] is wrong with people!!

Sorry, just had to vent.
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Old 02-20-2012, 01:38 PM
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Default Re: What on earth is wrong with society!

Agree, corporate sponsorship and govt grants is almost inexistant in arts, which to a certain degree affect many of the population, certainely in regards to music, everyone's enjoying music one way or another :)

The pony club where my daughter is riding (that's a sport, right?) never ever recieved any grants from local authorities or local industries,and that's not because we didn't ask, it's a disgrace, if it was a football club, it would have been granted :(

No one seems to care about musicians, painters, sculptors or any kind of art related issues, it's a real shame.
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Old 02-20-2012, 02:11 PM
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Default Re: What on earth is wrong with society!

Yeah. How about those sob story articles about poor sportspeople doing it tough coming up. For musos, it's a given.

Many sports people get carried through by ultra supportive parents who'd spit on 'em if they were playing in a rock band. But elite sports has the money because it has the audience and the means of generating income from that audience.

It ain't right, I say!
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Old 02-20-2012, 02:19 PM
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Default Re: What on earth is wrong with society!

Yes but when corporate sponsors do get involved with music such as sponsoring a bands tour it just seems to do nothing but drive up prices of tickets, etc so that the "Everyman" can barely afford to participate, if at all. And when government gets involved via grants, etc. then you get restrictions and censorship. It often seems to be damned if you do, damned if you don't.
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Old 02-20-2012, 02:34 PM
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Default Re: What on earth is wrong with society!

...

Good vent Pol, but the harsh truth is simple. Economics.

The economics of sport is far more tangible, predictable, lucrative than anything arts related. Professional sport is10 times the money-spinner that a music or theatre related event or festival could ever be.

You are right in that both sport & music/arts are intrinsic to society, but sports translates into very tangible benefits compared to music. It is easy argued that sports is good for health and builds communities. This very quickly scales up to very large numbers and turns into a big business. It could be said that the arts is good for your health too, but its a less convincing argument.

Compare the poster boys.. Roger Federer versus Keith Richards. Who is more aspirational to the 99%? Who would you want you son to be ?

Before you jump down my throat, Im just playing devils advocate.

PS- great timing on this thread, Pol. As I write this, a big event promotion company has suddenly dropped the idea of a 3 gig 3 city tour with Linkin Park, Maroon 5 and Enrique Inglesias and have decided to start a pro - wrestling channel instead


...

Last edited by aydee; 02-20-2012 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 02-20-2012, 05:03 PM
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Default Re: What on earth is wrong with society!

It's all about money - Dear Polly! The money talks, the bullshit walks...

But "Life is Short and Art is Long."
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Old 02-20-2012, 05:10 PM
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Default Re: What on earth is wrong with society!

I say we should go on strike. No music, anywhere for 30 days. Then when we come back, we quadruple our prices. That'll show em lol...
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Old 02-20-2012, 11:20 PM
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Default Re: What on earth is wrong with society!

No doubt it's all about money, but money is a measure of demand. Chickens and eggs.

How long has this been going on? People crowded the arenas to see gladiators kill and main each other and Christians being et by lions. I'm not a historian but I get the impression that the grand operas were not as massive or frequent.

Now, admittedly, we have grand musical spectacles in stadiums but sports attract those crowds and more week in and week out.

It's all screwy. People making love is considered obscene but people getting punched or shot is family entertainment.
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Old 02-20-2012, 11:28 PM
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Default Re: What on earth is wrong with society!

The Romans used to fill the Coliseum for Gladiator battles and the like but never for lute or flute players.
Sorry Polly I posted without reading your post above, but I think that is the history of we humans.
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Old 02-20-2012, 11:38 PM
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Default Re: What on earth is wrong with society!

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Sorry Polly I posted without reading your post above, but I think that is the history of we humans.
Viva la evolution!
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Old 02-20-2012, 11:55 PM
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Default Re: What on earth is wrong with society!

I see no reason why people can't just have sports teams, music groups and any other kinds of endeavors, without government help.

I mean, does anyone need a grant to do any of this stuff?
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:01 AM
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Governments and corporations love competitive, meat eater types. They love to see a tackle in a football game that's so vicious they they wonder how the other guy gets up. They love the people in corporations that kick ass and take names as they quickly climb the latter.

They like what they know and it's always about the money.
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:07 AM
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Default Re: What on earth is wrong with society!

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Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
It's all screwy. People making love is considered obscene but people getting punched or shot is family entertainment.
Yep, you see it on the news every day, many people don't even care about it anymore, it's just a routine , there's almost no news headlines on TV without an act of violence commited somewhere in this world, it's pathetic.

The same goes for some film makers, this industry is saturating the world with films which contains violence, murder, swearing, immoral topics and the likes, and a 12 years old adolescent can go and watch these movies, sad really, but it's ok to find sponsorship to make this type of business, it brings money in their pockets, who care about moral and etiquette, heck, only money matters.

In the mid 80's, I was part of a comitee to create an art center in my home town, it was "sponsorised" by the local authorities, after many months of preparation, we finally open the doors to welcome live bands within many styles of music and artists to display their paintings or sculpturs. After a little shy start for the first few weeks, it soon became very popular, and many local bands, including mine has played there, and for once I thought that the authorities had made a good decision, but I was thinking too soon, upon a few complaints from some residents, the local authorites closed the art center after a very short 6 months, the bands were playing on saturday nights from about 9 pm 'til 11 pm, nothing dramatical about it, the rest of the week it was an art gallery, and that's not making any noise, isn't it, be neverthless, they closed it, to say the least, I was furious and disapointed as many other musos within my home town.

Unless you're a big money making artist or band, life will be hard to get there, and you can only dream of any support or sponsoship but to look upon yourself.
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:37 AM
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Default Re: What on earth is wrong with society!

Most people don't understand the Arts.
Plain and simple.

Funding for the arts simply reflects popular traits.

Have you ever tried to share something artistic with someone who just doesn't get it?
You mite as well be talking about Quantum Physics!
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Old 02-21-2012, 01:50 AM
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Default Re: What on earth is wrong with society!

For those about to die...We salute you!
Who might be wrong? The modern-day gladiators trying to survive or the savage consuming public...asking for more?
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Last edited by Ian Williams; 02-21-2012 at 02:08 AM.
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Old 02-21-2012, 02:05 AM
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I say we should go on strike. No music, anywhere for 30 days. Then when we come back, we quadruple our prices. That'll show em lol...
That's another issue, Larry. We can't strike. The minute we stop, the un-hirable hack musicians will fill that void and take the gigs. It'll suck for a while, but then people will just get used to it.
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Old 02-21-2012, 02:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Deathmetalconga View Post
I see no reason why people can't just have sports teams, music groups and any other kinds of endeavors, without government help.

I mean, does anyone need a grant to do any of this stuff?
True. As I mentioned earlier the suits have a dead hand that we'd rather not be anywhere near music.

Having said that, they give the dosh to Kipling's flannelled fools and muddied oafs while the arts is ignored, and that says something in itself ...


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Originally Posted by resohead View Post
Governments and corporations love competitive, meat eater types. They love to see a tackle in a football game that's so vicious they they wonder how the other guy gets up. They love the people in corporations that kick ass and take names as they quickly climb the latter.
Yeah, that's what it says ... many of the people with the bucks pushing their beer and circuses on us are either meat heads or wannabes.


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... upon a few complaints from some residents, the local authorites closed the art center after a very short 6 months, the bands were playing on saturday nights from about 9 pm 'til 11 pm, nothing dramatic about it, the rest of the week it was an art gallery, and that's not making any noise, isn't it, be neverthless, they closed it, to say the least, I was furious and disapointed as many other musos within my home town.
Let me guess ... it was replaced by something sports or gambling related ... what a shame, you had a great gig.


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Have you ever tried to share something artistic with someone who just doesn't get it? You mite as well be talking about Quantum Physics!
Bob, increasingly Yoda-like you are becoming!


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That's another issue, Larry. We can't strike. The minute we stop, the un-hirable hack musicians will fill that void and take the gigs. It'll suck for a while, but then people will just get used to it.
Yes, my band is waiting in the wings ready for you hotshots to give up MWUHAHAHA
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Old 02-21-2012, 03:03 AM
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Default Re: What on earth is wrong with society!

it's unfortunate Polly, I don't know about down under, but in the states college sports is HUGE business, even though the athletes don't get paid, college football is a multi-billion $ empire. I was blessed to have studied music theory in college by 2 wold class proffessors, and we used to vent about it all the time how sports got all the $$$.
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Old 02-21-2012, 03:20 AM
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Default Re: What on earth is wrong with society!

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Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
I was looking at the news. Sports articles often go into the science and art behind what the players do. The music articles seem to mostly talk about the business, the artists' private lives and what's on.

The govt gives far more in grants to sports than the arts. Then there's all the corporate sponsorship. To be fair, both the govt and corporations put a dead hand to almost everything they do. Sure, lots of people play sports themselves but many have had music lessons, and most listen regularly.

I enjoy sports but my point is that it's so much more popular than the arts it's redikulouss! (at least in this country)

I don't geddit. What the [expletive] is wrong with people!!

Sorry, just had to vent.
It seems to me that the people that we have reviewing music are all too often not musicians, whereas sports retains ex-athletes at least as advisors. Instead of discussing drop D tunings, harmonies, 12 Bar Blues, syncopations, shuffles, riffs, etc, our music mag reviewers are too busy yacking on and on about Mick's lips, Iggie's (lack of) attire, or how many masks Peter Gabriel can wear in one show. I don't think any music publications that I know of have ever tried to hire people who were technically capable to even discuss musical issues - only observations that any non-musician would have about an artist, with the exception of technical mags like Drum, or Guitar magazines. I wondered from the first Queen concert I ever attended how Brian May could harmonize with himself. Why did Rolling Stone or Circus never wonder about things like that?
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Old 02-21-2012, 04:20 AM
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Yes, my band is waiting in the wings ready for you hotshots to give up MWUHAHAHA
I didn't mean it that way. Your band is great. I'd be honored to sit in with you guys if I ever got to your part of the realm. I could play ukulele ;)
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Old 02-21-2012, 04:29 AM
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... I don't know about down under, but in the states college sports is HUGE business
We don't have the same college sports thing - not big enough - but in Oz it's all about sport. My Mum was an author and she used to go nuts about it ... kept on threatening to move to Ireland where she said people appreciated their writers.


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It seems to me that the people that we have reviewing music are all too often not musicians, whereas sports retains ex-athletes at least as advisors. Instead of discussing drop D tunings, harmonies, 12 Bar Blues, syncopations, shuffles, riffs, etc, our music mag reviewers are too busy yacking on and on about Mick's lips, Iggie's (lack of) attire, or how many masks Peter Gabriel can wear in one show.
TRUE! I DON'T NORMALLY SHOUT ONLINE BUT THIS IS WORTH SHOUTING ABOUT!

It's so rare that they talk about the process of music and the focus on image and private lives and how many shows they've sold out etc is simply soulless. The best you get is a forensic analysis of lyrics - again no doubt because the reviewer knows little of music. They never seem to understand why musicians take solos and often take the superficial view that it's just "self indulgence", as though no listeners could possibly enjoy a solo.

It sure doesn't help ... people relate what they can understand and there's not a lot of light being shone on what goes on.

Jazz reviewers tend to be much better, though plenty of jazzers will beg to differ (and probably point out Stanley Crouch as a case in point).

I guess we should be grateful that there's any reviews at all when you can so readily find out the minutae of how some bloke throws a ball.
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Old 02-21-2012, 04:36 AM
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I didn't mean it that way. Your band is great. I'd be honored to sit in with you guys if I ever got to your part of the realm. I could play ukulele ;)
Very nice of you to say so but our demos are like airbrushed photos with our tummies pulled in. I have plenty of rehearsal "performances" (to use the word loosely) that I could not post online because it would be so embarrassing.

If you ever sat in with us you ought to be on the drums and I'll play djembe, maracas or rainstick or sumpin :)

Just reminded me of something, with the whole reality show thing with everyone wanting to be involved, maybe more hosted jam sessions would help?
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Old 02-21-2012, 04:47 AM
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That's another issue, Larry. We can't strike. The minute we stop, the un-hirable hack musicians will fill that void and take the gigs. It'll suck for a while, but then people will just get used to it.

So what you're saying is that if you guys stop playing, then maybe somebody somewhere will want to play with me? ALRIGHT! :D
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Old 02-21-2012, 05:00 AM
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So what you're saying is that if you guys stop playing, then maybe somebody somewhere will want to play with me? ALRIGHT! :D
After my last audition it makes me wonder who would want to play with me ;)
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Old 02-21-2012, 05:02 AM
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Very nice of you to say so but our demos are like airbrushed photos with our tummies pulled in. I have plenty of rehearsal "performances" (to use the word loosely) that I could not post online because it would be so embarrassing.

If you ever sat in with us you ought to be on the drums and I'll play djembe, maracas or rainstick or sumpin :)

Just reminded me of something, with the whole reality show thing with everyone wanting to be involved, maybe more hosted jam sessions would help?
It can't be that bad. You guys have a website and everything. Anyone who is willing to advertise must be able to pull off what they're advertising, eh? Or have you guys made it a business to get business but not take the gigs? That's what I would LOVE - just send me a check and I don't have to play!
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Old 02-21-2012, 10:20 AM
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At first we figured we'd actually do regular gigs, based on the chance that we would improve. Alas, not everyone has improved and we're too nice / loyal / cowardly / apathetic to do anything about it.

So the website is there because it's not been taken down :)
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Old 02-21-2012, 11:54 AM
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Default Re: What on earth is wrong with society!

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I see no reason why people can't just have sports teams, music groups and any other kinds of endeavors, without government help.

I mean, does anyone need a grant to do any of this stuff?
Better. It should not be the responsibility of government to throw money around to sporting groups or arts groups.

Sport gets enough money put into it from private company sponsorship or community-based funding as it is.

I am afraid that fundamentally the issue can be boiled down to economics and culture.

Culturally (especially in sport-loving countries like Australia and the US) "The Arts" are not very popular while sport gets a lot of attention.

Economically...well sport pays - this could be linked to culture from the whole supply-and-demand side of things.

A side note:

What is also great observation about what is wrong with society is that the US and Australia are countries mad about sports but have some of the highest rates of obesity and overweight people in the world.

Maybe it shows something about how much sport is watched rather than participated in by the general community in this country.
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:04 PM
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It seems to me that the people that we have reviewing music are all too often not musicians, whereas sports retains ex-athletes at least as advisors. Instead of discussing drop D tunings, harmonies, 12 Bar Blues, syncopations, shuffles, riffs, etc, our music mag reviewers are too busy yacking on and on about Mick's lips, Iggie's (lack of) attire, or how many masks Peter Gabriel can wear in one show. I don't think any music publications that I know of have ever tried to hire people who were technically capable to even discuss musical issues - only observations that any non-musician would have about an artist, with the exception of technical mags like Drum, or Guitar magazines.
So true. On the other hand, I know many musicians who avoid writing reviews because either 1) they'd rather spend their time making music, 2) they don't have the patience to articulate music theory in a way that non-musicians can easily understand, and 3) they have to write about their peers, which is not always easy if the review is critical.

Right now, I'm handling a college course in music theory for non-music majors. My students are majors in Art Studies, Film/Broadcast production, and Literature, and started off with zero knowledge of music theory. After walking them through basic reading and writing rhythm, melody, and functional harmony, my final presentation/term paper is for them to write a review of two popular songs (one they like and the other they don't) which includes simple formal analysis. I told them of the sad state of popular music reviews, and challenged them to do better. I'm looking forward to hearing their presentations starting next week.

Last edited by makinao; 02-21-2012 at 12:21 PM.
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Old 02-21-2012, 01:00 PM
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...

The deeper point to Polly's thread is something to really think about, IMO.

Societies which have their culture and art all around them, and as a part of their daily lives seem to me to be happier and more civilized people. Im certainly envious of them.

Stuffing it all away in museums and conservatories, or lofts for that matter, or even charging a pretty penny and making it completely unaffordable for 'Joe the Plumber' means limited access to what is rightfully ours and should be freely available -- Like a pick up basketball game.

And then of course we are all fed drivel by the marketing mavens of Big Business Inc who then re-arrange culture that is designed for profit, and not neccesarily for the enrichment of our collective soul or community building. I should know. I am one.

...
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Old 02-21-2012, 01:38 PM
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Societies which have their culture and art all around them, and as a part of their daily lives seem to me to be happier and more civilized people. Im certainly envious of them.
What society is that? Utopia or Nirvana? :)

What kills me is it's even hard to bring it to the streets ... busking licence of $40 for each local government area. Sydney has over 40 LGAs ... this is not encouraging culture.

Thank Deity for YouTube ... unless that new law puts the kibosh on that too.


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... And then of course we are all fed drivel by the marketing mavens of Big Business Inc who then re-arrange culture that is designed for profit, and not neccesarily for the enrichment of our collective soul or community building. I should know. I am one.
Bad Abe! Naughty Abe! Go to your corner!

It's crazy. How could we have been so conditioned by the Aural Amusement arm of Big Business Inc that something like Rebecca Black's Friday could be successful? No offence to Rebecca but it's almost entirely anti-music.

Are people losing their critical faculties and failing to see slapdash vacuous crap foisted on them for what it is? Beer and circuses.
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Old 02-22-2012, 07:14 AM
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What kills me is it's even hard to bring it to the streets ... busking licence of $40 for each local government area. Sydney has over 40 LGAs ... this is not encouraging
Good that I live in Melbourne - where there still is an animated live music scene.

After all, it is the cultural capital of Australia.

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Beer and circuses.
You can save your soul by not being part of the beer and circuses.
There is not much that musicians can do stop this over-commercialisation of music apart from just resisting by continuing their dedication to their art.

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We don't have the same college sports thing - not big enough - but in Oz it's all about sport. My Mum was an author and she used to go nuts about it ... kept on threatening to move to Ireland where she said people appreciated their writers.
I dare you to do something. Ask a few Aussies how many Australian poets they can list off the top of their heads.
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Old 02-23-2012, 12:36 AM
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Good that I live in Melbourne - where there still is an animated live music scene. After all, it is the cultural capital of Australia.
Glad it's still happening there. How much effect have the pokes had on the bar scene? When I was in Melb around 2002 it was still thriving.


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I dare you to do something. Ask a few Aussies how many Australian poets they can list off the top of their heads.
Haha, but that's just poetry, not proper art :) Banjo Patterson, Kenneth Slessor and Judith Wright come to mind.
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Old 02-23-2012, 05:12 PM
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Default Re: What on earth is wrong with society!

So what if you got your wish Pol...music was the big attraction to society and sports would be on the decline. I wonder what kind of world that would be....Better? Worse?
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Old 02-23-2012, 07:00 PM
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Jeremy Bender Jeremy Bender is offline
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So what if you got your wish Pol...music was the big attraction to society and sports would be on the decline. I wonder what kind of world that would be....Better? Worse?
Depends on whether or not we're willing to risk seeing a "wardrobe malfunction" of a pro ball player during intermission ;)
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Old 02-24-2012, 08:04 AM
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BassDriver BassDriver is offline
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Default Re: What on earth is wrong with society!

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Glad it's still happening there. How much effect have the pokes had on the bar scene? When I was in Melb around 2002 it was still thriving.
Plenty of pokies in melbourne. Many bars and large restaurants have them.

...and live music is still more popular than going to the footy when I checked last year in the newspapers.

It seems that in Melbourne, the venues that have been popular live music for a while are still running.

Like the East Brunswick Club and the Esplanade Hotel (which is still going after 100 years).

One of the problems with Sydney was venues were closing down.

I am still skeptical...how bad were pokies for the Syndey live music scene, there are plenty of pokies in Melbourne and live music is healthy here. What about the (no offence) more strongly entrenched, shallow and materialistic culture of Sydney:
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/20...788693816.html

...surely such values cannot be healthy for the state of art.

BTW Polly, you are not the only one who expresses their concern on the internet about live music in Australia:
http://www.slamrally.org/

...and here is a song that basically expresses your discontent with the pokies:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ogj5ztTE0zw
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Old 02-24-2012, 11:22 AM
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Default Re: What on earth is wrong with society!

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How long has this been going on? People crowded the arenas to see gladiators kill and main each other and Christians being et by lions. I'm not a historian but I get the impression that the grand operas were not as massive or frequent.
reply is a bit late, but just wanting to throw in my 2 cents. AS far as I know drama was pretty big at the time. Just have a look at the pic in this article. The place is massive. It's Greek, but yeah, the picture was more impressive than the roman theatre ;) Anyway. Apart from that I'm totally agreeing here. There is a lot of music and other arts everywhere still, but sports is pushed and supported a lot more. I just have to think back to my school days. Our community centre got more and more financial cuts and had to take higher member's fees just to stay afloat, whereas the sports centre had its own bus and what not.
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Old 02-24-2012, 11:23 AM
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Default Re: What on earth is wrong with society!

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One of the problems with Sydney was venues were closing down.

I am still skeptical...how bad were pokies for the Syndey live music scene, there are plenty of pokies in Melbourne and live music is healthy here. What about the (no offence) more strongly entrenched, shallow and materialistic culture of Sydney:
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/20...788693816.html
That's a very good point. Always good to have some perspective from the outside. I've been here for so long that I just figured the whole world is mostly inhabited by people I can't relate to.

Most people I meet who aren't involve in the arts seem to have little interest in the arts, other than movies and background music.
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Old 02-27-2012, 03:33 AM
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Default Re: What on earth is wrong with society!

Whatever brings home the bacon gets priority.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpbbuaIA3Ds
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