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  #41  
Old 10-26-2011, 08:10 AM
pxavier pxavier is offline
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Default Re: School vs. Music

Also, my English textual studies teacher wouldn't have warned us before our test on Monday that "he was not out to trick us" if he didn't believe other professors were out there doing so, or that he had the ability to do so (see music teacher example). His test was fair, and honest, like he is...

Guys, let me get this straight. I'm not getting a job to buy more cymbals. I'm not getting a job to own a thousand stacks I won't use on stage. I'm getting a job so I won't starve my art, the one thing in life I'm best at. So before you assume I'm passive about drumming, and willing to put it off for a career in something I'm not interested in, think twice. Drumming is one of the most important aspects in my life. It is priority number one, and the "ends" to my happiness. School is just a means. And by no means can I stand for the crap I take in school. It's not right, and therefore I consciously decide to step out of that sphere and be my own man, not some cog out designing things for a body of people I've never met. Don't get me wrong, engineering is beautiful, but not as beautiful as it could be. Music on the other hand, will remain as beautiful as it can be forever. On that note, I'd like for everyone to know I am very thankful for your participation, but you need to stop thinking that college is perfect. In some cases, including mine, it takes luck and a stronger sense of passion (and sacrifice there of) to get through it. Humility is key, sometimes more than smarts.

ALSO, I'd like everyone to know that this is a school versus music thread, NOT a bash college, your opinion is wrong thread. Make comments as you please, but please respect the opinions of others. If you don't, be prepared to receive a rebuttal. The point of this thread is the conflict between music and schooling in a student's life, and whether or not it is worth it. Some people are addressing this point directly, others decide to take another approach attacking the opinions of others and not answering the question of which side's pros/cons list outweighs the other's.

Last edited by pxavier; 10-26-2011 at 08:24 AM.
  #42  
Old 10-26-2011, 08:46 AM
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Um, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that you ditch school at your earliest convenience. Anyone as contemptuous toward the institution as you seem to be has no business being there. Besides, it seems clear that you've made up your mind on it already. By staying, you're only setting yourself up for failure.

Go play music and hope that you're both good enough and lucky enough to eke out an existence with it.
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  #43  
Old 10-26-2011, 03:13 PM
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She created four different tests so people would not cheat on each other during the period of time we worked on our test. I failed my test miserably, because the definitions under the identifications section on the test were either bogus or were skimmed over quickly in class (in other words, were not emphasized...). I told her this, and so she wanted to prove a point to me that same day by making me take another version of the test. She took me to her office, and gave me another version of the test. I literally finished it within 5 minutes and got EVERY definition correct. Fifty minutes to fail an exam, five minutes to perfect it. Now, ask yourself... What about all the other people who have failed? They could have got a hundred, but did not because they got a more difficult version of the exam. Their future in college is based upon this exam. Because they failed this exam, they will ever be able to obtain an A. This test DID NOT measure their smarts. It did NOT measure their aptitude in identifying styles of music of specific ancient instruments... It only did one thing, make the class more difficult and unfair for its students. Who knows what to study in this class...? This is only ONE example of the bullshit that is nothing less than COLLEGE.
That's because now you're in college you're not being taught to pass exams, you should have already known all the definitions that were required for any of the 4 tests, not just one of them. When you're at lectures, you have to note down anything you think will be of importance for the test at the end of it, no matter how quickly the lecturer might go through them. Universities have to cram a lot of stuff into your head in a short space of time and as such can't go into massive detail about every little thing you need to know for the test. You should have gone and read a book on the subject and done every example and got every question in the relavent sections of those books right and if you got anything wrong, taken it to your tutor to ask how to do it, but not before you tried looking anywhere else you could for guidance on how to do it. That's how you start to learn things on your own. No good blaming other people just because you were unable to complete the test, whichever one it may have been.

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Um, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that you ditch school at your earliest convenience. Anyone as contemptuous toward the institution as you seem to be has no business being there. Besides, it seems clear that you've made up your mind on it already. By staying, you're only setting yourself up for failure.

Go play music and hope that you're both good enough and lucky enough to eke out an existence with it.
+1. Even if you do manage to come out of college with a decent grade, there is no way you'll ever get a job at the end of it with an attitude like that. Seriously, you need to get over yourself if you want to get anywhere, otherwise you'll just have to be happy with playing in dive bars every night for the rest of your life.
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  #44  
Old 10-26-2011, 03:49 PM
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Default Re: School vs. Music

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Um, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that you ditch school at your earliest convenience. Anyone as contemptuous toward the institution as you seem to be has no business being there. Besides, it seems clear that you've made up your mind on it already. By staying, you're only setting yourself up for failure.

Go play music and hope that you're both good enough and lucky enough to eke out an existence with it.
I agree. I also heard your example the first time. Most professors are better than others. Some colleges are better than others. You get what you get. I'm sorry your music prof is a d-bag, but you shouldn't judge the entirety of the college experience on a handful of isolated incidents. Completing college and getting a degree proves to employers that your worth something.

I'll give you my advice again. Get a degree. If you wish to pursue music for some reason it doesn't work out, you will thank yourself. Change majors, change schools if you have to, just having the BS on your resume puts you miles ahead of everyone else in your situation that opted out. I applaud you for pursuing music, but it never hurts to have something to fall back on.
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Last edited by wsabol; 10-26-2011 at 06:31 PM.
  #45  
Old 10-26-2011, 04:12 PM
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I agree. I also heard your example the first time. Most professors are better than others. Some colleges are better than others. You get what you get. I'm sorry your music prof is a d-bag, but you should judge the entirety of the college experience on a handful of isolated incidents. Completing college and getting a degree proves to employers that your worth something.
+1 to this as well. The first year lecturers are generally crap to be honest. They were in our uni in fact the 2nd year ones aren't much better either. They put all the best staff onto final year units when you're likely to need them most. Until then it's up to you to make sure you do the work and know everything you're going to need to know in order to be able to take the exam in the subject. As I say, it's not just about passing an exam, it's about actually learning something.
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  #46  
Old 10-26-2011, 05:03 PM
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That's because now you're in college you're not being taught to pass exams, you should have already known all the definitions that were required for any of the 4 tests, not just one of them. When you're at lectures, you have to note down anything you think will be of importance for the test at the end of it, no matter how quickly the lecturer might go through them. Universities have to cram a lot of stuff into your head in a short space of time and as such can't go into massive detail about every little thing you need to know for the test. You should have gone and read a book on the subject and done every example and got every question in the relavent sections of those books right and if you got anything wrong, taken it to your tutor to ask how to do it, but not before you tried looking anywhere else you could for guidance on how to do it. That's how you start to learn things on your own. No good blaming other people just because you were unable to complete the test, whichever one it may have been.



+1. Even if you do manage to come out of college with a decent grade, there is no way you'll ever get a job at the end of it with an attitude like that. Seriously, you need to get over yourself if you want to get anywhere, otherwise you'll just have to be happy with playing in dive bars every night for the rest of your life.
I think you're missing my point here again. Even though I made index cards for the terms, and not to mention go above and beyond in that music class by correctly applying the theories I learned within it, and talking to my teacher about it after every class (this is my favorite class here), the tests were bogus. It had nothing to do with me "knowing everything mentioned"- especially when it is advocated by my teacher that we should not create dense notes because it is only a survey class. I've been in college for three years, I know how to learn on my own. It's been this way since middle school, especially because my parents have not had the opportunity I had. I'm not surprised that you assume I am not an adequate student... It's very understandable when you have an entire institution you can take sides with. Anyway, my point is that the tests were purposefully made bogus. Here is further description of the example that I'm expecting you to justify...

One session of this class, my teacher asks everyone if they read the book. It was a surprisingly simple 4 pages. I do the readings every night, and enjoy it. I did the readings for that day as well. But most of the class did not. She got angry at the class and literally skipped through the material because she told them they should have read. It did not bother me because I knew every term she went through like the back of my hand. The class after the test is done, she tells us that one of the tests had two terms from the day the class did not read, because she and a teacher of another section of the same subject had asked their class if they had read on the same day and came to the conclusion they should put terms from that reading on the test (I guess you could say out of spite, or to teach a lesson). Seems fair to me, except these terms are NOT on the book we use to write definitions worth knowing (survey class), which is a notebook pre-filled with terms and space to write definitions for each. I have enough humility to understand that readings are important, so I ignore the fact that some people (who are not serious about school) could care less to go back and read for a midterm... This was not the case in my sphere of studying, but what pisses me off is that not all tests were created equally. I am really excited to see how you justify this one, because an analogy that fits well with this scenario is being given a glass of salt to quench your thirst with. No way that's gonna get you anywhere in life but make things worse for you, unless you don't drink it ;-). I don't think you understand that teachers have the ability to make a test difficult, and by difficult, I mean by purposefully confusing their students. This is great and innovative in promotion of critical thinking, but if you want critical thinking, you you prepare them for it and teach them how to think critically, you don't risk their grades and future by purposefully putting things up to chance and saying "Hey, lets make 3 tests with material we studied in class, and one test with two terms that no one will know. Yeah, that's very productive in teaching our students about music theory and history." Their grades depend on these surprises and trick questions. Students come to college to learn and become good employees. This confusion comes up in life careers, and it's great to know how to think critically, but that gives no teacher the right to go out of their way to purposefully make some people fail by chance. It would have made much more sense if these two terms were put on everyone's test. It is m opinion, but in this scenario the different tests are clearly not fair, seeing that the tests were NOT created equally. My teacher agreed with me, which is why she let me have the high grade instead of a failing grade after I retook my test and proved my point and case. That said, I'm done with having to argue my reasoning. Though, it would be interesting to see you go against both my teacher and I at once.

Last edited by pxavier; 10-26-2011 at 05:14 PM.
  #47  
Old 10-26-2011, 05:16 PM
pxavier pxavier is offline
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I agree. I also heard your example the first time. Most professors are better than others. Some colleges are better than others. You get what you get. I'm sorry your music prof is a d-bag, but you should judge the entirety of the college experience on a handful of isolated incidents. Completing college and getting a degree proves to employers that your worth something.

I'll give you my advice again. Get a degree. If you wish to pursue music for some reason it doesn't work out, you will thank yourself. Change majors, change schools if you have to, just having the BS on your resume puts you miles ahead of everyone else in your situation that opted out. I applaud you for pursuing music, but it never hurts to have something to fall back on.
I changed majors :-). You understand my inquiry very well wsabol. Change of institution would make perfect sense, that's a great alternative to leaving school, especially when a lot of jobs ask for a degree in something. I'm just don't believe these jobs are necessary to help support a career in music. I need a way to afford necessary equipment for touring as well (such as transportation, haha). Great thinking.
  #48  
Old 10-26-2011, 05:19 PM
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Guys, let me get this straight. I'm not getting a job to buy more cymbals. I'm not getting a job to own a thousand stacks I won't use on stage. I'm getting a job so I won't starve my art, the one thing in life I'm best at. So before you assume I'm passive about drumming, and willing to put it off for a career in something I'm not interested in, think twice. Drumming is one of the most important aspects in my life. It is priority number one, and the "ends" to my happiness. School is just a means. And by no means can I stand for the crap I take in school. It's not right, and therefore I consciously decide to step out of that sphere and be my own man, not some cog out designing things for a body of people I've never met. Don't get me wrong, engineering is beautiful, but not as beautiful as it could be. Music on the other hand, will remain as beautiful as it can be forever. On that note, I'd like for everyone to know I am very thankful for your participation, but you need to stop thinking that college is perfect. In some cases, including mine, it takes luck and a stronger sense of passion (and sacrifice there of) to get through it. Humility is key, sometimes more than smarts.
No-one is saying college is perfect, it's just that nothing in life is perfect but you've got to ask yourself what is more ideal than the other thing. If you'd rather be a peniless musician than get an education it's entirely your choice. But don't blame other people for what you decided to do with your life.

Quote:
ALSO, I'd like everyone to know that this is a school versus music thread, NOT a bash college, your opinion is wrong thread. Make comments as you please, but please respect the opinions of others. If you don't, be prepared to receive a rebuttal. The point of this thread is the conflict between music and schooling in a student's life, and whether or not it is worth it. Some people are addressing this point directly, others decide to take another approach attacking the opinions of others and not answering the question of which side's pros/cons list outweighs the other's.
You're the one who has pretty much so far continued to come out with the same continuous whining about how your teacher did this, your teacher did that blah blah blah and not listening to anything else anyone has said. As I say I don't really care what you think about college, you just need to stop blaming everyone else for what you decide to do.
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  #49  
Old 10-26-2011, 05:21 PM
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I changed majors :-). You understand my inquiry very well wsabol. Change of institution would make perfect sense, that's a great alternative to leaving school, especially when a lot of jobs ask for a degree in something. I'm just don't believe these jobs are necessary to help support a career in music. I need a way to afford necessary equipment for touring as well (such as transportation, haha). Great thinking.
What if some little thing about the next school pisses you off as well? What are you going to do then? Move onto another school, quit, waste another year of your life? This isn't just about the institutions, it's about how you view learning. Personally, I don't think you're very interested in getting an education.
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Old 10-26-2011, 05:24 PM
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+1 to this as well. The first year lecturers are generally crap to be honest. They were in our uni in fact the 2nd year ones aren't much better either. They put all the best staff onto final year units when you're likely to need them most. Until then it's up to you to make sure you do the work and know everything you're going to need to know in order to be able to take the exam in the subject. As I say, it's not just about passing an exam, it's about actually learning something.
I agree with half of what you said. These professors I mentioned in those posts are not bad professors, just the wrong kind. They aren't promoting a learning environment, but instead take it upon themselves to punish those who aren't good students. And because they do not do it efficiently (only some tests were created this way), they hurt the good students as well, or at least the ones who had bad luck. Where is learning involved here? Maybe as a second thought, maybe as a second priority, but it is nowhere to be found in the base reasoning of things.
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Old 10-26-2011, 05:24 PM
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That said, I'm done with having to argue my reasoning. Though, it would be interesting to see you go against both my teacher and I at once.
I've not seen a lot of reasoning to be honest. I've just seen the same argument over and over again about how you did better in one test than another. Big wow. Get over it. All it means is that you knew more about what was involved in one test than another. As i said before, why don't you try learning everything you needed to know for all the tests?
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Old 10-26-2011, 05:36 PM
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As i said before, why don't you try learning everything you needed to know for all the tests?
I get the feeling you are skimming over what I wrote. I did learn everything I *needed* to know. Your argument is invalid, especially because the terms were not in the notebook given to us as a study guide for the semester- not to mention this makes things easier for us by outlining everything we need to know in a survey class that covers a lot of unnecessary information (I hope you understand what a survey class is). And I go further by applying this knowledge, and knowledge throughout the book, throughout my extra-curricular activities. It has nothing to do with which test I scored higher on. I would like to continue this argument, but you are clearly missing the point. Sorry.

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No-one is saying college is perfect, it's just that nothing in life is perfect but you've got to ask yourself what is more ideal than the other thing. If you'd rather be a peniless musician than get an education it's entirely your choice. But don't blame other people for what you decided to do with your life.



You're the one who has pretty much so far continued to come out with the same continuous whining about how your teacher did this, your teacher did that blah blah blah and not listening to anything else anyone has said. As I say I don't really care what you think about college, you just need to stop blaming everyone else for what you decide to do.
Hey man, first of all I would like to say I am not blaming a single person for whatever mistakes or decisions I've made. So far, especially with studies, I have made all the right decisions, but by chance I got screwed over by someone else's spiteful decision, or if it make you feel better, by chance. I'm not blaming that person or whatever reasoning they stand by, but my point is that the action was not academically honest and morally/productively correct in its application. I could care less as to whether this person continues to teach this way, but I am saying that I do not think I want to be a part of an institution or an ideology that promotes this sort of atmosphere, and can not see why I should be a part of it. I'm not asking college to be perfect. If that event had happened by mistake, I would not be here talking about this. It was don't purposefully, which brings into perspective the fact that college at times can really just be a bunch of bullshit depending on your teacher. Forget about my teacher, and understand that this is not about her (she's awesome). It is about how some subjects are taught- inefficiently.

Also, not every musician ends up penniless because they did not go to college. You would have a massive, angry mob of musicians willing to argue against you side if you took that to my town. I'm sorry if I'm not as academically ambitious as you are when it comes to wanting to pursue a musical career while I'm still young, but just know that I stand by what you quoted me on- I'm alive for the music, and I'm not trying to survive for it. I'm only trying to live for it. I took this question to this website because I know there are other drummers out there who have been through the same situation. I was not expecting a drummer to ignore the fact that skill makes the drummer, not the level of unrelated education he may have. I will not list the greatest of our times and of the past to prove my point.

I have not blamed anyone. And I refer to the bashing of people within this thread. I am not bashing my teacher, she is my favorite of them all. However, I do not agree with the actions her and her colleague took in teaching her students. Are you attacking me now? I am deciding to no longer respond to any return to this subject, especially from you. Thank you for participating- your insights were useful. It's time to move on.

Last edited by pxavier; 10-26-2011 at 06:07 PM. Reason: Promoting a "green" interwebs by conserving thread space ;-).
  #53  
Old 10-26-2011, 05:51 PM
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I agree with half of what you said. These professors I mentioned in those posts are not bad professors, just the wrong kind. They aren't promoting a learning environment...
I'm a trainee teacher so I'm going to go out on a limb here and explain a few things.

When you're at school (before University) it is expected that teachers are able to create an environment that you can learn in easy, with provisions for multi-sensory learning, differentiated tasks, summative assessment and regular progress monitoring because the students are in foundation stages and have to interest students in a wide range of subjects.

At University, this doesn't actually happen very often. You're delivered content and expected to understand it. The lecturer is not necessarily there to get you interested in the subject (that should be a given, seeing as you're studying at that level) and is instead teaching as only part of their job. The rest of their job is usually administration and research. So, you won't find many lecturers that create a learning environment because that's quite simply, not their job. It's your problem if you're not interested, not their problem. If you get a lecturer that's interested, they might make the environment more interesting but they're not expected to and you're not going to be told everything. They cannot cover half of what they would like to in the sessions allotted, so it's up to you.

The only exception is on teaching courses where they are teaching you how to teach. That becomes inherent in the student experience but not on other courses.
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Old 10-26-2011, 05:58 PM
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I'm a trainee teacher so I'm going to go out on a limb here and explain a few things.

When you're at school (before University) it is expected that teachers are able to create an environment that you can learn in easy, with provisions for multi-sensory learning, differentiated tasks, summative assessment and regular progress monitoring because the students are in foundation stages and have to interest students in a wide range of subjects.

At University, this doesn't actually happen very often. You're delivered content and expected to understand it. The lecturer is not necessarily there to get you interested in the subject (that should be a given, seeing as you're studying at that level) and is instead teaching as only part of their job. The rest of their job is usually administration and research. So, you won't find many lecturers that create a learning environment because that's quite simply, not their job. It's your problem if you're not interested, not their problem. If you get a lecturer that's interested, they might make the environment more interesting but they're not expected to and you're not going to be told everything. They cannot cover half of what they would like to in the sessions allotted, so it's up to you.

The only exception is on teaching courses where they are teaching you how to teach. That becomes inherent in the student experience but not on other courses.
Where have I said that I am not interested in my music class? If I have, I am willing to correct myself by saying that is the second most interesting class I am currently taking- the first is my jazz history class.

I understand this very well, but I believe you are missing the point as well: You are given a notebook, which is a portfolio of terms important to a survey class. You are told these are the only things you need to know, because there is much unnecessary information within the material presented. Yet, you are tested on material you are told not to review? Is this the right kind of teaching? I could be wrong, but to me it seems bogus, even in my case where I study subjects within the class in addition to what is necessary.
  #55  
Old 10-26-2011, 08:49 PM
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First day at university my teacher said: "You might wonder why I'm going to teach you this obsolete programming language and load you up with stupid problems you'll never see out there in the real world. Very simple, I want f@#k with your brains, pardon my french. If you survive it, you'll be so much better off."
And that's how I looked at education after that - brain fitness. The earlier you start, the easier it is to build and upkeep. BS/MS degrees are just a bonus.
So my advise would be to stick to the school and learn to balance between studies and music career. Which would be an invaluable lesson in itself.
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Old 10-26-2011, 10:14 PM
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I get the feeling you are skimming over what I wrote. I did learn everything I *needed* to know. Your argument is invalid, especially because the terms were not in the notebook given to us as a study guide for the semester- not to mention this makes things easier for us by outlining everything we need to know in a survey class that covers a lot of unnecessary information (I hope you understand what a survey class is). And I go further by applying this knowledge, and knowledge throughout the book, throughout my extra-curricular activities. It has nothing to do with which test I scored higher on. I would like to continue this argument, but you are clearly missing the point. Sorry.
I already explained earlier that university is about learning material for yourself. The notebook has some useful stuff in it but you've got to go out and actually buy books on the subject or at least rent stuff from the library and read up on the stuff in there. That's the only way to get top marks.

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Hey man, first of all I would like to say I am not blaming a single person for whatever mistakes or decisions I've made. So far, especially with studies, I have made all the right decisions, but by chance I got screwed over by someone else's spiteful decision, or if it make you feel better, by chance. I'm not blaming that person or whatever reasoning they stand by, but my point is that the action was not academically honest and morally/productively correct in its application. I could care less as to whether this person continues to teach this way, but I am saying that I do not think I want to be a part of an institution or an ideology that promotes this sort of atmosphere, and can not see why I should be a part of it. I'm not asking college to be perfect. If that event had happened by mistake, I would not be here talking about this. It was don't purposefully, which brings into perspective the fact that college at times can really just be a bunch of bullshit depending on your teacher. Forget about my teacher, and understand that this is not about her (she's awesome). It is about how some subjects are taught- inefficiently.
Well don't be a part of the institution if you don't want to be then. But why are you still arguing about it in this thread if that's what you've decided?

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Originally Posted by pxavier View Post
Also, not every musician ends up penniless because they did not go to college. You would have a massive, angry mob of musicians willing to argue against you side if you took that to my town. I'm sorry if I'm not as academically ambitious as you are when it comes to wanting to pursue a musical career while I'm still young, but just know that I stand by what you quoted me on- I'm alive for the music, and I'm not trying to survive for it. I'm only trying to live for it. I took this question to this website because I know there are other drummers out there who have been through the same situation. I was not expecting a drummer to ignore the fact that skill makes the drummer, not the level of unrelated education he may have. I will not list the greatest of our times and of the past to prove my point.
You're right that not everyone who is a top drummer has had a top education. If you want to try and make it through that route then go for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pxavier View Post
I have not blamed anyone. And I refer to the bashing of people within this thread. I am not bashing my teacher, she is my favorite of them all. However, I do not agree with the actions her and her colleague took in teaching her students. Are you attacking me now? I am deciding to no longer respond to any return to this subject, especially from you. Thank you for participating- your insights were useful. It's time to move on.
No I'm not attacking you, but I feel like you come across as being extremely arrogant, trying to make me out to be some sort of idiot or something. What's with this last bit anyway? I can't say I particularly enjoy having such a ridiculous argument with someone I've never met on the internet either but if you want to stop at any time then all you have to do is stop making such long winded posts in order to try and score points in some sort of imaginary game.
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Last edited by eddiehimself; 10-26-2011 at 10:28 PM.
  #57  
Old 10-26-2011, 10:40 PM
pxavier pxavier is offline
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Join Date: May 2011
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Default Re: School vs. Music

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehimself View Post
I already explained earlier that university is about learning material for yourself. The notebook has some useful stuff in it but you've got to go out and actually buy books on the subject or at least rent stuff from the library and read up on the stuff in there. That's the only way to get top marks.


Well don't be a part of the institution if you don't want to be then. But why are you still arguing about it in this thread if that's what you've decided?


You're right that not everyone who is a top drummer has had a top education. If you want to try and make it through that route then go for it.


No I'm not attacking you, but I feel like you come across as being extremely arrogant, trying to make me out to be some sort of idiot or something. What's with this last bit anyway? I can't say I particularly enjoy having such a ridiculous argument with someone I've never met on the internet either but if you want to stop at any time then all you have to do is stop making such long winded posts in order to try and score points in some sort of imaginary game.

That's what the syllabus is for, it tells us what books to purchase. I'm open to new opinions and insights, though I'm done defending my point on how crappy my curriculum has been. I'm not playing any games man... I'm just talking. And I'm just asking you to let it go. Not all curriculum are created equal. Someone below me made a good point about switching majors or schools, I think I may follow that. I'm just welcoming other ideas, that is all. No need to fuss about me posting on my own thread. PS, I never said you are some sort of idiot, but it really seems like you aren't reading what I said, I have had to repeat myself three times. I included the last bit so you are aware of your actions. I would like to keep answering you, and hoped you would turn back to the topic when I asked you to the first time, but you did not, so I will just ask again so we can keep this thread true to the topic. This is a conversation, I'm obliged to respond to you out of respect. If this bothers you then I will stop, other than that it would be nice of you to return to the topic and stop questioning my studying habits hat have gotten me this far.

Last edited by pxavier; 10-26-2011 at 10:52 PM.
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